About Baffles

Discuss your refractor type scopes here.
Post Reply
User avatar
Michael131313
Mars Ambassador
Articles: 0
Posts: 195
Joined: Sun May 12, 2019 5:39 pm
Location: San Jose del Valle , Nayarit, Mexico
Has thanked: 618 times
Been thanked: 244 times

About Baffles

#1

Post by Michael131313 » Fri Oct 04, 2019 11:10 pm

I have read Gabby's post on baffles and the various links provided. I have a general idea on what they do, but would like to ask some basic questions.

What are they made of?

How do they attach to the tube?

How large are they?

What is their shape?

Do they encircle the whole tube?

Thanks very much for your help.

Michael
ES AR 102 102mm, f/6.5, Orion Starblast 4.5 114mm,f/4 , Celestron 10x50, GSO SV 30mm, ES 68° 20mm, ES 82° 14mm, 11mm, 8.8 mm, 6.8mm, 4.7mm. Twilight 1 mount.
Don Quixote
Milky Way Ambassador
Articles: 0
Posts: 1392
Joined: Sat May 11, 2019 8:55 pm
Location: Illinois
Has thanked: 2640 times
Been thanked: 2114 times

Re: About Baffles

#2

Post by Don Quixote » Fri Oct 04, 2019 11:57 pm

Hello Michael.

In a refractor tube the baffles could be like paper thin donuts of the same outer diameter as the inner diameter of the tube with gradually smaller and smaller donut holes but the same outer diameter. These donut shaped wafers attached to the inside of the telescope tube with the largest donut hole closest to the front of the telescope and gradually getting smaller as you move toward the back of the telescope.
I suppose you could make them out of anything from cardboard to metal. They could be attached with glue or spot welded or several other fastenments.

Which telescope are you going to baffle?
User avatar
notFritzArgelander
Local Group Ambassador
Articles: 0
Posts: 2449
Joined: Fri May 10, 2019 4:13 pm
Location: Idaho US
Has thanked: 3306 times
Been thanked: 6279 times

TSS Awards Badges

Re: About Baffles

#3

Post by notFritzArgelander » Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:00 am

Michael131313 wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 11:10 pm
I have read Gabby's post on baffles and the various links provided. I have a general idea on what they do, but would like to ask some basic questions.

What are they made of?

How do they attach to the tube?

How large are they?

What is their shape?

Do they encircle the whole tube?

Thanks very much for your help.

Michael
They are made of anything convenient and attached in some stable way. Depends on what you’re wanting to do.

They are as large as possible without shadowing the field of view. Gabby treated a good method for sizing.

They are cylindrically symmetric, encircling the tube inside. They can be annular rings.

The most important part aside from geometry is flat black finish.
Scopes: Refractors: Orion ST80, SV ED80 A f7; Newtonians: Z12 f5; Catadioptrics: VMC110L, Intes MK66. EPs: KK Fujiyama Orthoscopics, 2x Vixen NPLs (40-6mm) and BCOs, Baader Mark IV zooms, TV Panoptics, Delos, Plossl 32-8mm. Mixed brand Masuyama/Astroplans Binoculars: Nikon Aculon 10x50, Celestron 15x70, Baader Maxbright. Mounts: Star Seeker III, Vixen Porta II, Celestron CG5, Orion Sirius EQG
User avatar
Lady Fraktor
Co-Administrator
Articles: 0
Posts: 1330
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:14 pm
Location: Slovakia
Has thanked: 2763 times
Been thanked: 1840 times

Re: About Baffles

#4

Post by Lady Fraktor » Sat Oct 05, 2019 5:17 am

If you are wanting to place new baffles in your telescope I would recommend drawing it out full size so placement can be worked out accurately.
I have made baffles out of metal and even stiff poster paper.
I can post an image of what a baffle looks like and is held in place inside the tube as I was going to be removing the focuser from one tonight.
Proper Telescopes: Antares 105 f/15, Celestron 150 f/8, Stellarvue NHNGDX 80 f/6.9, TAL 100RS f/10, TS 102 f/11, UR 70 f/10, Vixen ED115s f/7.7
Mounts: Celestron CG-5 w/ Argo Navis & tracking motor, SLT w/ pier & tripod mods, Manfrotto 028b w/ SV M2C, Mantrotto 055Pro w/ 128RC, TAL MT1C, Vixen SXP w/ HAL-130 & half pier
Diagonal: 2" A-P Maxbright, 2" Baader Herschel Wedge (P), 2" Zeiss/ Baader Amici Prism (DX2), 2" Orion Amici Prism, 2" Stellarvue DX, 2" TeleVue EverBrite
🇸🇰Image
User avatar
notFritzArgelander
Local Group Ambassador
Articles: 0
Posts: 2449
Joined: Fri May 10, 2019 4:13 pm
Location: Idaho US
Has thanked: 3306 times
Been thanked: 6279 times

TSS Awards Badges

Re: About Baffles

#5

Post by notFritzArgelander » Sat Oct 05, 2019 6:08 am

Repost of the link to the Berfield method:

http://www.berfield.com/baffles.html

This is minimal IMO. A couple more can only help.

Also another idea for building a complete baffle assembly which can be removed for maintenance if necessary.

http://mirrorworkshop.mtbparker.com/refractorStory.html

The spacings of the baffles are not like Berfield and so are not so recommendable. (I see considerable redundancy.) But I very much like the idea of a baffle assemblage that can be removed / replaced as a unit.
Scopes: Refractors: Orion ST80, SV ED80 A f7; Newtonians: Z12 f5; Catadioptrics: VMC110L, Intes MK66. EPs: KK Fujiyama Orthoscopics, 2x Vixen NPLs (40-6mm) and BCOs, Baader Mark IV zooms, TV Panoptics, Delos, Plossl 32-8mm. Mixed brand Masuyama/Astroplans Binoculars: Nikon Aculon 10x50, Celestron 15x70, Baader Maxbright. Mounts: Star Seeker III, Vixen Porta II, Celestron CG5, Orion Sirius EQG
User avatar
Michael131313
Mars Ambassador
Articles: 0
Posts: 195
Joined: Sun May 12, 2019 5:39 pm
Location: San Jose del Valle , Nayarit, Mexico
Has thanked: 618 times
Been thanked: 244 times

Re: About Baffles

#6

Post by Michael131313 » Sat Oct 05, 2019 5:27 pm

Thanks all for the info:

Don Q. I haven't decided if I want to place baffles in my ES AR102. It does not have any baffles. I did what John posted and looked down the tube at the objective to see how dark it was. I did this in the daylight. Unfortunately the sides of the tube are not at all dark. Now I realize what baffles do. I have never taken the scope apart, so I'm a little wary as to what might happen. I live in an area where there would be no help except for TSS.

n_FA. Thanks for the info and links. The baffle assembly is an interesting idea. How do you think it is attached?

Gabby. I would very much like to see the baffle. Thanks.
ES AR 102 102mm, f/6.5, Orion Starblast 4.5 114mm,f/4 , Celestron 10x50, GSO SV 30mm, ES 68° 20mm, ES 82° 14mm, 11mm, 8.8 mm, 6.8mm, 4.7mm. Twilight 1 mount.
User avatar
notFritzArgelander
Local Group Ambassador
Articles: 0
Posts: 2449
Joined: Fri May 10, 2019 4:13 pm
Location: Idaho US
Has thanked: 3306 times
Been thanked: 6279 times

TSS Awards Badges

Re: About Baffles

#7

Post by notFritzArgelander » Sat Oct 05, 2019 5:43 pm

My idea would be to simply size the baffle assembly to slip into the tube to fit. Then should maintenance be necessary it can be easily removed.
Scopes: Refractors: Orion ST80, SV ED80 A f7; Newtonians: Z12 f5; Catadioptrics: VMC110L, Intes MK66. EPs: KK Fujiyama Orthoscopics, 2x Vixen NPLs (40-6mm) and BCOs, Baader Mark IV zooms, TV Panoptics, Delos, Plossl 32-8mm. Mixed brand Masuyama/Astroplans Binoculars: Nikon Aculon 10x50, Celestron 15x70, Baader Maxbright. Mounts: Star Seeker III, Vixen Porta II, Celestron CG5, Orion Sirius EQG
Don Quixote
Milky Way Ambassador
Articles: 0
Posts: 1392
Joined: Sat May 11, 2019 8:55 pm
Location: Illinois
Has thanked: 2640 times
Been thanked: 2114 times

Re: About Baffles

#8

Post by Don Quixote » Sat Oct 05, 2019 5:54 pm

Another thing you may consider in evaluating any light controlling upgrade is the focuser tube.

When I am evaluating my own kit, looking through the objective end in daylight can give some false flags because NOTHING captures ALL the light. You WILL see lighter areas and shadows depending on the angle of direct light entering the objective. I recommend making this observation with the objective pointed toward a uniform, neutral background, like a ceiling. Shining a flashlight down the tube may be overkill.
Comparing one scope to another of equal spec may reveal a difference between the two which could be meaningful as well.

One objective of controlling the light scatter with baffles is to optimize contrast.

But I also look through the focuser end with no diagonal installed. This can reveal light scatter in the focuser tube. It will show up as a lighter ring between the entry point of the focuser and the field stop of the objective.

I have treated this in my 2 inch and larger focuser by inserting a flocking material into the focuser tube. This can be slid forward and backward in the focuser tube to tune out these reflections.

I would add to my evaluation of the need of upgrading your 102 a look through the focuser end with no EP installed.

I have posted here, somewhere, my method for this focuser tube treatment. It has been effective for me.

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=3495
User avatar
Lady Fraktor
Co-Administrator
Articles: 0
Posts: 1330
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:14 pm
Location: Slovakia
Has thanked: 2763 times
Been thanked: 1840 times

Re: About Baffles

#9

Post by Lady Fraktor » Sat Oct 05, 2019 6:11 pm

Here is a image of the rear factory baffle, you can see the folded over tabs that hold it in place. These are towards the focuser.
I usually make the tabs about 15mm.

When looking through the objective you should not be able to see the tube walls.
IMG_3139a.png
Proper Telescopes: Antares 105 f/15, Celestron 150 f/8, Stellarvue NHNGDX 80 f/6.9, TAL 100RS f/10, TS 102 f/11, UR 70 f/10, Vixen ED115s f/7.7
Mounts: Celestron CG-5 w/ Argo Navis & tracking motor, SLT w/ pier & tripod mods, Manfrotto 028b w/ SV M2C, Mantrotto 055Pro w/ 128RC, TAL MT1C, Vixen SXP w/ HAL-130 & half pier
Diagonal: 2" A-P Maxbright, 2" Baader Herschel Wedge (P), 2" Zeiss/ Baader Amici Prism (DX2), 2" Orion Amici Prism, 2" Stellarvue DX, 2" TeleVue EverBrite
🇸🇰Image
User avatar
j.gardavsky
Earth Ambassador
Articles: 0
Posts: 35
Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:52 pm
Location: Germany
Has thanked: 262 times
Been thanked: 142 times

Re: About Baffles

#10

Post by j.gardavsky » Sat Oct 05, 2019 6:12 pm

Just on a side line,

next to the baffles in the OTA tube, it is flocking of the zenit mirror house interior. The side walls on the budget zenit mirrors reflect the light rays, which are not trapped by the baffles in the OTA. Tomorrow I'll take a pic, need the day light for my photography.

Some people place an adjustable iris diaphragm in front of the zenit mirror/prism, I have for it an iris diaphragm form Leitz Diavert. It is at the moment in the socks drawer, should I believe to need it in future.

And last but not least is is an oversized lens hood on a refractor, protecting the lens and the OTA from the stray light sorces and from the sky glow.

When the refractor is correctly protected from the unwanted light, then a 6" rich field refractor will beat on contrast even the much larger Dobs, and it will show some faint fuzzies even at lower magnifications.

Best,
JG
User avatar
Michael131313
Mars Ambassador
Articles: 0
Posts: 195
Joined: Sun May 12, 2019 5:39 pm
Location: San Jose del Valle , Nayarit, Mexico
Has thanked: 618 times
Been thanked: 244 times

Re: About Baffles

#11

Post by Michael131313 » Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:31 pm

Thanks everyone. When I look through the objective, no diagonal or EP, I just see black (no tube walls) except the light from the focuser opening. When I look through the focuser end, no diagonal or EP, the focuser tube is black, but the inside of the OTA tube is a light grey. (During daylight). Would this be a case for baffles?
ES AR 102 102mm, f/6.5, Orion Starblast 4.5 114mm,f/4 , Celestron 10x50, GSO SV 30mm, ES 68° 20mm, ES 82° 14mm, 11mm, 8.8 mm, 6.8mm, 4.7mm. Twilight 1 mount.
Don Quixote
Milky Way Ambassador
Articles: 0
Posts: 1392
Joined: Sat May 11, 2019 8:55 pm
Location: Illinois
Has thanked: 2640 times
Been thanked: 2114 times

Re: About Baffles

#12

Post by Don Quixote » Sat Oct 05, 2019 8:44 pm

For what it is worth...
These are images of the focuser end and the objective end on my 100mm Evostar Doublet.

This telescope has only three factory installed baffles.

First is Objective. One with flash. One with no flash.
20191005_152909.jpg
20191005_152930.jpg
The next set is the focuser end. One with flash. One with no flash.
20191005_152951.jpg
20191005_153011.jpg
Personally I would think three or four times before disassembling your 102 to add baffling.
Just my conservative opinion.

The flocking of areas mentioned by JG in post #10 above would also be good to consider.


Cheers.
User avatar
Michael131313
Mars Ambassador
Articles: 0
Posts: 195
Joined: Sun May 12, 2019 5:39 pm
Location: San Jose del Valle , Nayarit, Mexico
Has thanked: 618 times
Been thanked: 244 times

Re: About Baffles

#13

Post by Michael131313 » Sun Oct 06, 2019 4:51 pm

Thank you everyone for the info and help. I have learned a lot.

Don Q. Thanks for the photos. I agree. My AR102 gives me very good views as is. I don't feel good about messing around with it right now.
ES AR 102 102mm, f/6.5, Orion Starblast 4.5 114mm,f/4 , Celestron 10x50, GSO SV 30mm, ES 68° 20mm, ES 82° 14mm, 11mm, 8.8 mm, 6.8mm, 4.7mm. Twilight 1 mount.
User avatar
j.gardavsky
Earth Ambassador
Articles: 0
Posts: 35
Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:52 pm
Location: Germany
Has thanked: 262 times
Been thanked: 142 times

Re: About Baffles

#14

Post by j.gardavsky » Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:42 pm

Hello Michael,

it looks o.k. for me, I would do just nothing, leaving it as it is,

JG
User avatar
j.gardavsky
Earth Ambassador
Articles: 0
Posts: 35
Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:52 pm
Location: Germany
Has thanked: 262 times
Been thanked: 142 times

Re: About Baffles

#15

Post by j.gardavsky » Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:03 pm

Michael,
just not to forget, if you are using a zenit diagonal mirror, check out its inner life on spurious reflections.
Best,
JG
User avatar
Michael131313
Mars Ambassador
Articles: 0
Posts: 195
Joined: Sun May 12, 2019 5:39 pm
Location: San Jose del Valle , Nayarit, Mexico
Has thanked: 618 times
Been thanked: 244 times

Re: About Baffles

#16

Post by Michael131313 » Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:28 pm

Thank you for your help JG.
I do not know what a "zenit" diagonal mirror is. The ES AR102 came with GSO (I think) 99% reflective 2 inch mirror diagonal. I will do as you say and check for stray light soon.
Michael
ES AR 102 102mm, f/6.5, Orion Starblast 4.5 114mm,f/4 , Celestron 10x50, GSO SV 30mm, ES 68° 20mm, ES 82° 14mm, 11mm, 8.8 mm, 6.8mm, 4.7mm. Twilight 1 mount.
User avatar
notFritzArgelander
Local Group Ambassador
Articles: 0
Posts: 2449
Joined: Fri May 10, 2019 4:13 pm
Location: Idaho US
Has thanked: 3306 times
Been thanked: 6279 times

TSS Awards Badges

Re: About Baffles

#17

Post by notFritzArgelander » Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:36 pm

Michael131313 wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:28 pm
Thank you for your help JG.
I do not know what a "zenit" diagonal mirror is. The ES AR102 came with GSO (I think) 99% reflective 2 inch mirror diagonal. I will do as you say and check for stray light soon.
Michael
That's exactly a "zenit" mirror in German.
Scopes: Refractors: Orion ST80, SV ED80 A f7; Newtonians: Z12 f5; Catadioptrics: VMC110L, Intes MK66. EPs: KK Fujiyama Orthoscopics, 2x Vixen NPLs (40-6mm) and BCOs, Baader Mark IV zooms, TV Panoptics, Delos, Plossl 32-8mm. Mixed brand Masuyama/Astroplans Binoculars: Nikon Aculon 10x50, Celestron 15x70, Baader Maxbright. Mounts: Star Seeker III, Vixen Porta II, Celestron CG5, Orion Sirius EQG
User avatar
Michael131313
Mars Ambassador
Articles: 0
Posts: 195
Joined: Sun May 12, 2019 5:39 pm
Location: San Jose del Valle , Nayarit, Mexico
Has thanked: 618 times
Been thanked: 244 times

Re: About Baffles

#18

Post by Michael131313 » Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:44 pm

:lol: Got my German lesson today. Thanks n_FA.
ES AR 102 102mm, f/6.5, Orion Starblast 4.5 114mm,f/4 , Celestron 10x50, GSO SV 30mm, ES 68° 20mm, ES 82° 14mm, 11mm, 8.8 mm, 6.8mm, 4.7mm. Twilight 1 mount.
User avatar
j.gardavsky
Earth Ambassador
Articles: 0
Posts: 35
Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:52 pm
Location: Germany
Has thanked: 262 times
Been thanked: 142 times

Re: About Baffles

#19

Post by j.gardavsky » Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:44 pm

"zenit(h) diagonal mirror"

It is an "unword", something like "make the right angle right" in the fun video.
Another unword is "zenit(h) prism diagonal",
https://www.baader-planetarium.com/en/a ... t-14).html

There are not many prisms without diagonal,
and the mirrors are just flat, concave, convex, dirty, ...

Best,
JG
Post Reply

Return to “Refractor type Telescopes”