Terrible ringing in M78

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Larry 1969 United States of America
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Terrible ringing in M78

#1

Post by Larry 1969 »


Hello everyone!
This isn't really a processing question at all but, rather a "What is causing this?" question.
Every time I set my sights on M78 this happens. I've tried it 3 years in a row from different parts of my rather large driveway and different times of night. This is 35 x 3 min frames captured after moonset. Capture time started at 01:30 so outside lighting was not an issue. I'm becoming convinced that there is a bright star just outside my frame that is ruining it.

What would be a good next step in identifying the source?

I was thinking of rotating the camera from 0 degrees to 90 degrees and see if it follows.

Thanks!
Attachments
M78-RGB-session_1-DeNoiseAI-low-lightRESIZE.jpg
For visual:
10" Skywatcher collapsible goto dob, various EP's and a Celestron StarSense auto align.

For imaging:
Orion 8" astrograph 800mm @ F3.9
Eq6-R Pro controlled by APT via EQmod with an OTA mounted mini PC
Tele Vue Paracorr Type 2 coma corrector
Altair Hypercam 26C
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Re: Terrible ringing in M78

#2

Post by STEVE333 »


Two very bright stars (Alnilam and Alnitak) are both off in the direction that could cause the "rings" you are seeing. However they are quite a ways out of your FOV.
Have you checked to make sure there aren't any reflective surfaces on the inside of your telescope tube that could be causing the reflections?

Steve
Steve King: Light Pollution (Bortle 5)
Telescope + Mount + Guiding: W.O. Star71-ii + iOptron CEM40 EC + Orion Magnificent Mini AutoGuider
Camera: ASI 1600MM Pro + EFW Filter Wheel + Chroma 3nm Siii, Ha, Oiii + ZWO LRGB Filters
Software: PHD2; APT; PixInsight ***** My AP website: www.steveking.pictures
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Larry 1969 United States of America
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Re: Terrible ringing in M78

#3

Post by Larry 1969 »


STEVE333 wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 4:14 am Two very bright stars (Alnilam and Alnitak) are both off in the direction that could cause the "rings" you are seeing. However they are quite a ways out of your FOV.
Have you checked to make sure there aren't any reflective surfaces on the inside of your telescope tube that could be causing the reflections?

Steve
I checked that last year. All I could see was the screws for the focuser were shiny silver so I painted them flat black.
It's just strange that it only happens with this target. I had nothing at all in my M45 image and there are quite a few very bright stars in that.

Thanks.

Larry
For visual:
10" Skywatcher collapsible goto dob, various EP's and a Celestron StarSense auto align.

For imaging:
Orion 8" astrograph 800mm @ F3.9
Eq6-R Pro controlled by APT via EQmod with an OTA mounted mini PC
Tele Vue Paracorr Type 2 coma corrector
Altair Hypercam 26C
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Re: Terrible ringing in M78

#4

Post by sdbodin »


Larry 1969 wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 10:05 pm I'm becoming convinced that there is a bright star just outside my frame that is ruining it.

What would be a good next step in identifying the source?

I was thinking of rotating the camera from 0 degrees to 90 degrees and see if it follows.

Thanks!
I agree with all said above and by the good comments from others. Pic from Stellarium attached to help visualize the problem. However, identifying the offending reflection spot in your scope is very difficult. Even flat black reflects a bright spot when the incident angle is just right, that's why it is best to have everything turned with threads, but extremely expensive (if not impossible) in amateur gear.
m78pic.jpg
Good luck,
Steve
Scopes; Meade 16 LX200, AT80LE, plus bunch just sitting around gathering dust
Cameras; Atik 460ex mono, Zwo ASI1600MC-cool, QHY5L-II color and mono
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Re: Terrible ringing in M78

#5

Post by AstroBee »


ImageSeems as though Alnitak is your culprit....
Greg M.~ "Ad Astra per Aspera"
Scopes: Celestron EdgeHD14", Explore Scientific ED152CF & ED127 APO's, StellarVue SV70T, Classic Orange-Tube C-8, Lunt 80mm Ha double-stack solar scope.
Mounts: Astro-Physics Mach One, iOptron CEM70EC Mount, iOptron ZEQ25 Mount.
Cameras: ZWO ASI2600mm Pro, ZWO 2600MC Pro, ZWO ASI1600mm
Filters: 36mm Chroma LRGB & 3nm Ha, OIII, SII, L-Pro, L-eXtreme
Eyepieces: 27mm TeleVue Panoptic, 4mm TeleVue Radian, Explore Scientific 82° 30mm, 6.7mm , Baader 13mm Hyperion, Explore Scientific 70° 10mm, 15mm, 20mm, Meade 8.8mm UWA
Software: N.I.N.A., SharpCapPro, PixInsight, PhotoShop CC, Phd2, Stellarium
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Re: Terrible ringing in M78

#6

Post by Larry 1969 »


AstroBee wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 1:14 am ImageSeems as though Alnitak is your culprit....
I'm suspecting as much as well.
How did you manage that overlay? That's pretty awesome!
Any suggestions for avoiding that? I was thinking about reframing it a bit. Maybe picking a different center. Something a bit more to the right. Maybe splitting the difference between the ringing and the actual target?

Larry
For visual:
10" Skywatcher collapsible goto dob, various EP's and a Celestron StarSense auto align.

For imaging:
Orion 8" astrograph 800mm @ F3.9
Eq6-R Pro controlled by APT via EQmod with an OTA mounted mini PC
Tele Vue Paracorr Type 2 coma corrector
Altair Hypercam 26C
Image
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Re: Terrible ringing in M78

#7

Post by AstroBee »


Larry 1969 wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 2:30 am How did you manage that overlay? That's pretty awesome!
Larry
Fairly easy. I took a screenshot of your image while viewing it full-size, then took a screenshot of the region in Stellarium.
Brought both images into Photoshop and put your photo on top of the Stellarium background. Made the transparency of your layer 50% so I should see the background through it and then took your layer and adjusted the size and rotation until it matched the background. Change the transparency back to 100% and export to jpeg.
Greg M.~ "Ad Astra per Aspera"
Scopes: Celestron EdgeHD14", Explore Scientific ED152CF & ED127 APO's, StellarVue SV70T, Classic Orange-Tube C-8, Lunt 80mm Ha double-stack solar scope.
Mounts: Astro-Physics Mach One, iOptron CEM70EC Mount, iOptron ZEQ25 Mount.
Cameras: ZWO ASI2600mm Pro, ZWO 2600MC Pro, ZWO ASI1600mm
Filters: 36mm Chroma LRGB & 3nm Ha, OIII, SII, L-Pro, L-eXtreme
Eyepieces: 27mm TeleVue Panoptic, 4mm TeleVue Radian, Explore Scientific 82° 30mm, 6.7mm , Baader 13mm Hyperion, Explore Scientific 70° 10mm, 15mm, 20mm, Meade 8.8mm UWA
Software: N.I.N.A., SharpCapPro, PixInsight, PhotoShop CC, Phd2, Stellarium
https://www.nevadadesertskies.com
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Re: Terrible ringing in M78

#8

Post by Larry 1969 »


AstroBee wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 2:38 am Fairly easy.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
For visual:
10" Skywatcher collapsible goto dob, various EP's and a Celestron StarSense auto align.

For imaging:
Orion 8" astrograph 800mm @ F3.9
Eq6-R Pro controlled by APT via EQmod with an OTA mounted mini PC
Tele Vue Paracorr Type 2 coma corrector
Altair Hypercam 26C
Image
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Re: Terrible ringing in M78

#9

Post by sdbodin »


Larry 1969 wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 2:30 am
Any suggestions for avoiding that? I was thinking about reframing it a bit. Maybe picking a different center. Something a bit more to the right. Maybe splitting the difference between the ringing and the actual target?

Larry
Any or all might work, just trial and error. I have the same problem imaging the Horsehead from zeta Orion, just recentered a tiny bit and it goes away.

All one big mystery of imaging,
Steve
Scopes; Meade 16 LX200, AT80LE, plus bunch just sitting around gathering dust
Cameras; Atik 460ex mono, Zwo ASI1600MC-cool, QHY5L-II color and mono
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Re: Terrible ringing in M78

#10

Post by Larry 1969 »


sdbodin wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 4:11 am Any or all might work, just trial and error. I have the same problem imaging the Horsehead from zeta Orion, just recentered a tiny bit and it goes away.

All one big mystery of imaging,
Steve
I just wish I could make it out in a single exposure. Then I could make the adjustments in real time.

Larry
For visual:
10" Skywatcher collapsible goto dob, various EP's and a Celestron StarSense auto align.

For imaging:
Orion 8" astrograph 800mm @ F3.9
Eq6-R Pro controlled by APT via EQmod with an OTA mounted mini PC
Tele Vue Paracorr Type 2 coma corrector
Altair Hypercam 26C
Image
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Re: Terrible ringing in M78

#11

Post by Juno16 »


Larry 1969 wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 11:28 am
sdbodin wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 4:11 am Any or all might work, just trial and error. I have the same problem imaging the Horsehead from zeta Orion, just recentered a tiny bit and it goes away.

All one big mystery of imaging,
Steve
I just wish I could make it out in a single exposure. Then I could make the adjustments in real time.

Larry
M78 is such a beautiful target.
Is there anyway to save the date you already have my remediating the halo somewhat?
Jim

Scopes: Explore Scientific ED102 APO, Sharpstar 61 EDPH II APO, Samyang 135 F2 (still on the Nikon).
Mount: Skywatcher HEQ5 Pro with Rowan Belt Mod
Stuff: ASI EAF Focus Motor (x2), Orion 50mm Guide Scope, ZWO 30 mm Guide Scope, ASI 220mm min, ASI 120mm mini, Stellarview 0.8 FR/FF, Sharpstar 0.8 FR/FF, Mele Overloock 3C.
Camera/Filters/Software: ASI 533 mc pro, ASI 120mm mini, Orion SSAG, IDAS LPS D-1, Optolong L-Enhance, ZWO UV/IR Cut, N.I.N.A., Green Swamp Server, PHD2, Adobe Photoshop CC, Pixinsight.
Dog and best bud: Jack
Sky: Bortle 6-7
My Astrobin: https://www.astrobin.com/users/Juno16/
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Re: Terrible ringing in M78

#12

Post by STEVE333 »


Juno16 wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:51 pm
M78 is such a beautiful target.
Is there anyway to save the date you already have my remediating the halo somewhat?

I downloaded the jpeg image into Pixinsight, removed the stars, did some CloneStamping and then replaced the stars to see if it helped. The result is shown below. The approach looks promising.

M78.jpg

Steve
Steve King: Light Pollution (Bortle 5)
Telescope + Mount + Guiding: W.O. Star71-ii + iOptron CEM40 EC + Orion Magnificent Mini AutoGuider
Camera: ASI 1600MM Pro + EFW Filter Wheel + Chroma 3nm Siii, Ha, Oiii + ZWO LRGB Filters
Software: PHD2; APT; PixInsight ***** My AP website: www.steveking.pictures
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Re: Terrible ringing in M78

#13

Post by Juno16 »


STEVE333 wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 7:39 pm
Juno16 wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:51 pm
M78 is such a beautiful target.
Is there anyway to save the date you already have my remediating the halo somewhat?

I downloaded the jpeg image into Pixinsight, removed the stars, did some CloneStamping and then replaced the stars to see if it helped. The result is shown below. The approach looks promising.


M78.jpg


Steve

Excellent work Steve!

I’m sure it too “a few” stamps to accomplish, but you really improved the image!
Jim

Scopes: Explore Scientific ED102 APO, Sharpstar 61 EDPH II APO, Samyang 135 F2 (still on the Nikon).
Mount: Skywatcher HEQ5 Pro with Rowan Belt Mod
Stuff: ASI EAF Focus Motor (x2), Orion 50mm Guide Scope, ZWO 30 mm Guide Scope, ASI 220mm min, ASI 120mm mini, Stellarview 0.8 FR/FF, Sharpstar 0.8 FR/FF, Mele Overloock 3C.
Camera/Filters/Software: ASI 533 mc pro, ASI 120mm mini, Orion SSAG, IDAS LPS D-1, Optolong L-Enhance, ZWO UV/IR Cut, N.I.N.A., Green Swamp Server, PHD2, Adobe Photoshop CC, Pixinsight.
Dog and best bud: Jack
Sky: Bortle 6-7
My Astrobin: https://www.astrobin.com/users/Juno16/
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Re: Terrible ringing in M78

#14

Post by Larry 1969 »


Juno16 wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:51 pm M78 is such a beautiful target.
Is there anyway to save the date you already have my remediating the halo somewhat?
I've been trying this for 3 years and failed every time. It's an awesome target and I'm not giving up! Although, I'll probably toss this data. It's not that big of a deal. This was only 90 min TOT.

Larry
For visual:
10" Skywatcher collapsible goto dob, various EP's and a Celestron StarSense auto align.

For imaging:
Orion 8" astrograph 800mm @ F3.9
Eq6-R Pro controlled by APT via EQmod with an OTA mounted mini PC
Tele Vue Paracorr Type 2 coma corrector
Altair Hypercam 26C
Image
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Re: Terrible ringing in M78

#15

Post by Larry 1969 »


STEVE333 wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 7:39 pm I downloaded the jpeg image into Pixinsight, removed the stars, did some CloneStamping and then replaced the stars to see if it helped. The result is shown below. The approach looks promising.


Steve
Thanks Steve!
Your process does show some promise, but my processing skills aren't anywhere near that. I'm much better off with clean data. This was only 90 minutes worth, so not a big loss.

Larry
For visual:
10" Skywatcher collapsible goto dob, various EP's and a Celestron StarSense auto align.

For imaging:
Orion 8" astrograph 800mm @ F3.9
Eq6-R Pro controlled by APT via EQmod with an OTA mounted mini PC
Tele Vue Paracorr Type 2 coma corrector
Altair Hypercam 26C
Image
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Re: Terrible ringing in M78

#16

Post by AstroBee »


Larry, I'm not sure how you are processing your data but if you are using PixInsight, Adam Block has a tutorial on eliminating these types of reflections in your image. Sort of like the process that Steve did in his correction but he goes into great "typical for Adam, too much" detail on how to do it.
Greg M.~ "Ad Astra per Aspera"
Scopes: Celestron EdgeHD14", Explore Scientific ED152CF & ED127 APO's, StellarVue SV70T, Classic Orange-Tube C-8, Lunt 80mm Ha double-stack solar scope.
Mounts: Astro-Physics Mach One, iOptron CEM70EC Mount, iOptron ZEQ25 Mount.
Cameras: ZWO ASI2600mm Pro, ZWO 2600MC Pro, ZWO ASI1600mm
Filters: 36mm Chroma LRGB & 3nm Ha, OIII, SII, L-Pro, L-eXtreme
Eyepieces: 27mm TeleVue Panoptic, 4mm TeleVue Radian, Explore Scientific 82° 30mm, 6.7mm , Baader 13mm Hyperion, Explore Scientific 70° 10mm, 15mm, 20mm, Meade 8.8mm UWA
Software: N.I.N.A., SharpCapPro, PixInsight, PhotoShop CC, Phd2, Stellarium
https://www.nevadadesertskies.com
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Re: Terrible ringing in M78

#17

Post by Larry 1969 »


AstroBee wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 11:17 pm Larry, I'm not sure how you are processing your data but if you are using PixInsight, Adam Block has a tutorial on eliminating these types of reflections in your image. Sort of like the process that Steve did in his correction but he goes into great "typical for Adam, too much" detail on how to do it.
Thanks for that! I'll give it a look.

Larry
For visual:
10" Skywatcher collapsible goto dob, various EP's and a Celestron StarSense auto align.

For imaging:
Orion 8" astrograph 800mm @ F3.9
Eq6-R Pro controlled by APT via EQmod with an OTA mounted mini PC
Tele Vue Paracorr Type 2 coma corrector
Altair Hypercam 26C
Image
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