Orion Magnificent Mini Deluxe AutoGuider Package

[planecrazzzy]

Me Again,
I can't convert my finder scope any cheaper than buying this one with the Orion Star Shooter. Saving about $20 bucks
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Is this 50mm going to work with good zw Mono cameras ? ( $ 1,000 range )

https://www.telescope.com/Orion-Magnifi ... 102418.uts

Or do they need 60mm ?
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This is another area I need to research as I find all the pieces I need...Compatibility...
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Thanks for any tips.
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[Juno16]

Hi PC,

I have a MMAG. Busy right now, but I’ll try to get back with more info soon

[Juno16]

Hi again PC,

The MMAG package was my first guide scope/camera. I bought it about 3-4 years ago.
It has always worked very well for me and has been a joy to use on my Explore Scientific ED102.

The version that you linked in you post is the same package I have (the version with the helical focuser). The helical focuser version was recommended to me and I am sure glad that I purchased that version. It was super easy to focus the first time and I haven’t focused it since.

I purchased a ZWO 30 mm mini guide scope and ASI120mm mini camera to use with my smaller scope (Sharpstar 61). I know that lots of folks use the 30mm guide scope and stand by it, but I have had trouble focusing it. It uses a threaded barrel and locking ring and I have struggled with focus several times. Now, please don’t get me wrong though, it has performed very well for me and does for many folks.

With the ZWO 30mm mini guide scope, I use a ASI120mm mini camera. This camera is a heck of a deal. It is much cheaper than the Orion SSAG and performs very well, though I have had the Orion star shoot autoguider camera longer.

If I had to replace the Orion MMAG package, I would go with the Orion 50mm guide scope with the helical focuser (or any 50-60mm guide scope with a helical focuser) and the ASI120mm mini camera.

You are probably already aware of this, but when selecting a guide scope/guide camera, image scale is an important figure in selection. The guide scope/guide camera image scale should not be much more than 5x the image scale of the imaging scope/camera (lower is fine).

The formula is 206 * (camera pixel size) / (focal length).

I assume that you are going to use the MMAG with the ES ED102. If so, are you going to use a field flattener (recommended)?

Find the pixel size of the camera that you will be using and plug it all into the formula to calculate the image scale.

In my case 206*3.76 / 571 = 1.36 arcsec/px (Explore Scientific ED102/Orion MMAG package).
That’s 206 * 3.76 (pixel size of my ASI533) / 571 (fl of 714 native ES ED102 * the 0.8 FR/FF I’m using).

For the MMAG package it’s 206*5.2 / 162 = 6.61 arcsec/px

The setup works very well for me and should do the same for you.

[planecrazzzy]

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I was thinking about this camera...
https://www.highpointscientific.com/zwo ... 47cacd43c7


With the Orion helical focuser
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I'll need to find out if it's all compatible before I buy anything.
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Does that sound like a good combo....

It should keep me busy forever...

Well , I might need another mount someday...
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I will have to re read your post many times to understand formulas and the math.
and the effect.

[Juno16]

Very nice camera. Tried and true and has produced outstanding images for many years.
I wanted to go mono someday, especially in Bortle 7 skies, but if I had 2k$ to spend, I would probably go with a ASI2600MCP instead. The newer dual band filters are amazing.
So, you will get the Orion MMAG package and use the 1600 with the Explore Scientific ED102. Nice setup.
Definitely consider a field flattener if you haven’t already.

[planecrazzzy]

Yes , filters...Another expensive learning curve.
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[planecrazzzy]

By the way , I LOVE the picture you took of Andramada ...Wow
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It was one of my first targets after planets... My first Galaxy

I'm going back there better equipped...

I could only HOPE to get a picture that cool.
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Gotta Fly...
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[SkyHiker]

The MMAG is fine. I used it for years in a counterweight position to not overload the AVX too much with my 127 Apo or Comet Hunter. I have now switched to an OAG. Price wise they are competitve, and they are small. Once you assemble the ZWO mono camera with a filter wheel why not add an OAG in between. While most of my stuff is ZWO, I have a QHY medium sized OAG. It has a helical focuser, which is handy for readjustment. ZWO has a list of its gear and appropriate filter sizes. You probably end up with a 7 filter wheel 36 mm. The size of the filters makes a lot of price difference. Downside of an OAG is the limited FOV but it resolves any flexure issues and does not require a separate scope. Assembly can be a pain because the prism has to fit in the center of the long side of the imaging sensor. You may and up disassembling and reassembling a few times, messing with adapters to get everything to fit and learn more 4 letter words. But I'm happy with mine.

While you're at it, consider an autofocuser. I have the EAF and it works well. The adapter plate was worthless so I made my own adapter of a wooden block glued on. I have one block on my 12" and one on my MN. It takes some work transplanting an autofocuser from one scope to the other.

Once you have all that electronics (camera, cooler, autofocuser, filter wheel, OAG) right by the focuser you realize that you need a small computer to mount on the scope right there that you can remote log into and power that works with an adapter at home and with a 12 V battery in the field. I got a Pi4 with 8GB RAM for that running KStars. Power is supplied by a 12 to 5 V DCDC and powered 7 port USB2 hub. Make sure that you have 2 USB3 ports to handle the images from the camera and autoguider. If you don't like Linux with Kstars you can use a NUC with Nina and PHD2. Once you have all that it is very easy to set up because it's all in place as one unit, with a minimum hassle of cables everywhere. ZWO provides 2 sets of cables, the short size is great for the on-OTA computer rig. My rig is one of the best decisions I made to keep everything manageable and simplify the setup.

[Juno16]

Hi PC,

I’m very much looking forward to replying to you later.
On the way to pick up my one year grandson, so I’ll be tied up for most of the day.

Just remember that there are many ways of doing things, lots of different configurations, and lots of headaches!
Its lots of fun though!

[Juno16]

Thanks PC!

I think this is my fourth attempt at M 31. Luckily, it’s a big and bright target!

Henk offered some very good information. More information to save for reference.

Different methods work for different folks!

I don’t know anything about off axis guiding , but I read about folks having issues with them often on this and other forums.
I could be mistaken, but I believe off axis guiding becomes even more necessary with longer focal lengths (much longer than 700mm).
I have had good success with a guide scope/ camera like the MMAG by keeping the guide scope firmly mounted and cables secured.
An on-scope PC would be wonderful, and I will probably go to that one day, but until my 7 to 8 year-old Dell Latitude, craps out, I’ll be using it.
USB3 ports would be great too, but I have never had an issue running one single 15’ USB2 cable from a USB2 port on the laptop to my imaging camera and piggybacking the auto focus (EAF) and guide scope off of the hub on the back of the camera. So, for me, a single usb2 port on the runs everything with another usb2 port to the mount.

So, like I said, there are many ways of doing things. My ways aren’t the best, but they work for me.

I started this hobby, when I retired, so purchases have been one at a time. I’m kind of glad I did it that way at least for me because it gave me a chance to learn more slowly and enjoy the small victories!

Looking forward to your progress!

[Jockinireland]

Hi PC,

Jim @Juno16 and Henk have said it all concerning the Guidescope/camera or OAG. My only input would be similar to Jims, guidescope is easier to set up than OAG and is perfectly viable with refractors like yours. Also, EAF is a "nice to have at this stage" - with a bahtinov mask manual focus is easy enough and an EAF can be added in the future once you are over the initial learning hump.

On the camera, the ASI1600mm is a great camera but it is becoming dated. But if you are set on mono but dont want to go to the expense of the new ASI 2600mm (double the price) then its a pretty good starting point. I would however suggest that you look at the kit which includes the filterwheel and a full filter set - it gives a very significant saving over buying seperate. This one https://www.highpointscientific.com/zwo ... 1600mmp-k1 uses the 1.25" filters which are fine but another $200 would give you 36mm filters which would future proof for moving to a larger sensor in time.

If you are going for the 1600 I would definitely look around the second hand market as the 1600mm is coming up regularly just now as people upgrade to the 2600mm

I would also reiterate Jims other point. Unless you are 100% set on mono, you might want to consider the 2600mc with dual band filter, that is my primary set up. I recently got a "too good to pass over" offer of a QHY163m which is equivalent (same sensor) as the 1600mm. The difference in noise and sensitivity between the 2600 and the 163 is remarkable. I will use the 163m for specific projects but my preference will remain with the 2600mc. It will remain as my primary camera for the foreseeable future. There are lots of arguments about why an OSC will never give as good results as a comparable mono and they are all valid. BUT - in my opinion, the new generation of OSC sensors (like 2600mc) give better results than the older mono sensors (like 1600mm). But I note that there are some forums - not this one - where I would be burned at the stake as a heretic for saying so


Whichever route you choose. Good Luck. This is an extremely complicated hobby but it is highly rewarding. I look forward to following your journey

Rgds

David.

[planecrazzzy]

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Hey Ireland,

How's it going. Good info there.
I hear you about the package including the filter wheel , I have been looking at those.
I wasn't sure if was really needed a filter wheel or if it was a luxury , I like the filters that comes with the kit.
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As far as reaching HIGHER from this point...
This point has already stretched the max....There is no ceiling to this hobby...only higher.
I thought FLYING was expensive , ok...it is , But this is giving it a good run for the money.
In this case... It's the MONEY that's FLYING.
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also I feel I'm already giving myself a good challenge, and as you say alot of people have these.
That will be a well of information.
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I just don't deserve the newest camera yet...
I don't deserve to start as HIGH as I am ,
It's just more catching up , I look forward to it, I'm retired.
Although... Very busy , many hobbies...and chores ( Many Chores )
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I'm almost ready to start pointing it up...
Looks like the 6" Newtonian and the 102mm will be available the same time.
I'm still at the stage where I have to learn the "Go To" better...and the tracking speeds ,
I have a ways to go before I take pictures,
Dive in...Screw up... Find out how to solve/fix it, improve it. own it.
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You can see my seclusion from Light pollution in my aerial photo.
This was when I was scouting the area to carve out a runway.
Grassy looking areas were swamps.
You can see our house at the center of the picture , by the lake.
All small cities are 20+ miles away , I only see dim horizon light from one...North. ( Bemidji ,MN )
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Gotta Fly...
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[Juno16]

Man, you guys are cracking me up!!!!

@Jockinireland

"in my opinion, the new generation of OSC sensors (like 2600mc) give better results than the older mono sensors (like 1600mm). But I note that there are some forums - not this one - where I would be burned at the stake as a heretic for saying so".

You are absolutely right!!!!

I hope to get a 2600MC when I grow up someday (I'm 67 now!!).
I was torn between the 294MC-P and the 533MC-P and I am surely glad that I went with the 533! As you know, the 533 uses the same newer sensor technology as your 2600 at less than half the price (only because it's sensor is half the size!


@planecrazzzy

"There is no ceiling to this hobby...only higher.
I thought FLYING was expensive , ok...it is , But this is giving it a good run for the money.
In this case... It's the MONEY that's FLYING."

Again, absolutely right!!!

You are very fortunate to have selected a nice dark home site not only for your airstrip, but for AP. In my Bortle 7 skies, I probably have to image for 5-7 times longer to get the same data quality as you will have at your site. Congratulations!