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I think the 'budget' bit says it all lol. I'm pretty convinced Kubota's claims about the benefits of the Starbase single coatings is marketing spiel.
I'm pretty convinced that it's not mere spiel. Sure it's cheaper but they perform surprisingly well. Having reviewed the issue, I may need to do a head to head versus TV Plossls.
The Starbase aren't exactly premium eyepieces though. The 6mm cost me about 60 quid. I'm pretty convinced if it had been made in China it would have been half that at least.
For many folks the additional cost of premium is not reflected in a commensurate increase in performance. Premium eyepieces are for folks with fussy eyes.
Scopes: Refs: Orion ST80, SV 80EDA f7, TS 102ED f11 Newts: AWB 130mm, f5, Z12 f5; Cats: VMC110L, Intes MK66,VMC200L f9.75 EPs: KK Fujiyama Orthoscopics, 2x Vixen NPLs (40-6mm) and BCOs, Baader Mark IV zooms, TV Panoptics, Delos, Plossl 32-8mm. Mixed brand Masuyama/Astroplans Binoculars: Nikon Aculon 10x50, Celestron 15x70, Baader Maxbright. Mounts: Star Seeker IV, Vixen Porta II, Celestron CG5
I'm pretty convinced that it's not mere spiel. Sure it's cheaper but they perform surprisingly well. Having reviewed the issue, I may need to do a head to head versus TV Plossls.
The Starbase aren't exactly premium eyepieces though. The 6mm cost me about 60 quid. I'm pretty convinced if it had been made in China it would have been half that at least.
For many folks the additional cost of premium is not reflected in a commensurate increase in performance. Premium eyepieces are for folks with fussy eyes.
I would have thought most of the additional cost would reflect build quality and the economics of where the eyepieces in question were constructed. A lot of Tele Vue eyepieces are made by BASO in Taiwan to very high tolerances. AFAIK Kubota do not manufacture premium scopes or EP's, even if they can perform well.
The Starbase aren't exactly premium eyepieces though. The 6mm cost me about 60 quid. I'm pretty convinced if it had been made in China it would have been half that at least.
For many folks the additional cost of premium is not reflected in a commensurate increase in performance. Premium eyepieces are for folks with fussy eyes.
I would have thought most of the additional cost would reflect build quality and the economics of where the eyepieces in question were constructed. A lot of Tele Vue eyepieces are made by BASO in Taiwan to very high tolerances. AFAIK Kubota do not manufacture premium scopes or EP's, even if they can perform well.
Maybe often true. But translation into commensurate performance is not thereby assured. It is dangerous to overgeneralize. Non premium EPs like BCOs outperform TV Plossls on DSO contrast features. Non premium eyepieces like KK Orthoscopics outperform TV Plossls and BCOs on lunar and planetary contrast features. Higher price and higher tolerances do not necessarily translate into superior performance.
Scopes: Refs: Orion ST80, SV 80EDA f7, TS 102ED f11 Newts: AWB 130mm, f5, Z12 f5; Cats: VMC110L, Intes MK66,VMC200L f9.75 EPs: KK Fujiyama Orthoscopics, 2x Vixen NPLs (40-6mm) and BCOs, Baader Mark IV zooms, TV Panoptics, Delos, Plossl 32-8mm. Mixed brand Masuyama/Astroplans Binoculars: Nikon Aculon 10x50, Celestron 15x70, Baader Maxbright. Mounts: Star Seeker IV, Vixen Porta II, Celestron CG5
For many folks the additional cost of premium is not reflected in a commensurate increase in performance. Premium eyepieces are for folks with fussy eyes.
I would have thought most of the additional cost would reflect build quality and the economics of where the eyepieces in question were constructed. A lot of Tele Vue eyepieces are made by BASO in Taiwan to very high tolerances. AFAIK Kubota do not manufacture premium scopes or EP's, even if they can perform well.
Maybe often true. But translation into commensurate performance is not thereby assured. It is dangerous to overgeneralize. Non premium EPs like BCOs outperform TV Plossls on DSO contrast features. Non premium eyepieces like KK Orthoscopics outperform TV Plossls and BCOs on lunar and planetary contrast features. Higher price and higher tolerances do not necessarily translate into superior performance.
Orthoscopics have better contrast than Plossls though usually in my experience. So it's not surprising the BCO's or Ohi ortho's have or can display better contrast at times. Half of the cost of TV Plossls is probably because they are basically over-engineered. Also, a lot of observation is subjective. I think the Vixen Deluxe Barlow has better acuity, colour separation, transmission and contrast than the TV 2x. The TV shows no astigmatism with my 19mm Panoptic and yet the Vixen does. My perception and opinions are purely subjective of course. YMMV.
Bigzmey wrote: ↑Tue Sep 06, 2022 11:11 pm
I consider BCOs, TV Plossls and KK Orthos premium EPs within their design group (low glass count EPs).
Nagler is not "more premium", you just pay more for wide FOV and longer ER.
I tend to agree. The BCO's are a bit cheaper as I believe they are made in China or Singapore. Naglers, Panoptics and the like are physically bigger eyepieces with a lot more glass. It's not surprising that they cost more. Notwithstanding they are also manufactured outside of China by BASO in Taiwan (mainly).
Bigzmey wrote: ↑Tue Sep 06, 2022 11:11 pm
I consider BCOs, TV Plossls and KK Orthos premium EPs within their design group (low glass count EPs).
Nagler is not "more premium", you just pay more for wide FOV and longer ER.
I disagree and don't use premium in that way. Premium means pricey, an amount over the customary or average charge. YMMV and thanks for clarifying your usage. Nagler is more premium simply because you pay more.
Scopes: Refs: Orion ST80, SV 80EDA f7, TS 102ED f11 Newts: AWB 130mm, f5, Z12 f5; Cats: VMC110L, Intes MK66,VMC200L f9.75 EPs: KK Fujiyama Orthoscopics, 2x Vixen NPLs (40-6mm) and BCOs, Baader Mark IV zooms, TV Panoptics, Delos, Plossl 32-8mm. Mixed brand Masuyama/Astroplans Binoculars: Nikon Aculon 10x50, Celestron 15x70, Baader Maxbright. Mounts: Star Seeker IV, Vixen Porta II, Celestron CG5
Bigzmey wrote: ↑Tue Sep 06, 2022 11:11 pm
I consider BCOs, TV Plossls and KK Orthos premium EPs within their design group (low glass count EPs).
Nagler is not "more premium", you just pay more for wide FOV and longer ER.
I disagree and don't use premium in that way. Premium means pricey, an amount over the customary or average charge. YMMV and thanks for clarifying your usage. Nagler is more premium simply because you pay more.
OK, then substitute "premium" for "top tier". Point I was trying to make is that quality of materials and quality of execution are similar for BCO and Nagler, you just pay more for more complex design and features with Nagler.
On the other hand ES68 16mm costs 3x more then BCO, but in terms of execution quality and optical performance it is not in the same tier as BCO. It is still a good performer (tier 2 or 3) but not as good as BCO or Pentax XW. Would you call ES68mm premium just based on the price?
Just checked Webster and definitions for premium are
: of exceptional quality or amount
also : higher-priced
So, I was within my rights. TV Plossl would be premium to Celestron Omni Plossl, since it is both exceptional quality and higher-priced. BCO is not as high priced but of exceptional quality.
Bigzmey wrote: ↑Tue Sep 06, 2022 11:11 pm
I consider BCOs, TV Plossls and KK Orthos premium EPs within their design group (low glass count EPs).
Nagler is not "more premium", you just pay more for wide FOV and longer ER.
I disagree and don't use premium in that way. Premium means pricey, an amount over the customary or average charge. YMMV and thanks for clarifying your usage. Nagler is more premium simply because you pay more.
OK, then substitute "premium" for "top tier". Point I was trying to make is that quality of materials and quality of execution are similar for BCO and Nagler, you just pay more for more complex design and features with Nagler.
On the other hand ES68 16mm costs 3x more then BCO, but in terms of execution quality and optical performance it is not in the same tier as BCO. It is still a good performer (tier 2 or 3) but not as good as BCO or Pentax XW. Would you call ES68mm premium just based on the price?
Yes.
Scopes: Refs: Orion ST80, SV 80EDA f7, TS 102ED f11 Newts: AWB 130mm, f5, Z12 f5; Cats: VMC110L, Intes MK66,VMC200L f9.75 EPs: KK Fujiyama Orthoscopics, 2x Vixen NPLs (40-6mm) and BCOs, Baader Mark IV zooms, TV Panoptics, Delos, Plossl 32-8mm. Mixed brand Masuyama/Astroplans Binoculars: Nikon Aculon 10x50, Celestron 15x70, Baader Maxbright. Mounts: Star Seeker IV, Vixen Porta II, Celestron CG5
Bigzmey wrote: ↑Wed Sep 07, 2022 12:14 am
Just checked Webster and definitions for premium are
: of exceptional quality or amount
also : higher-priced
So, I was within my rights. TV Plossl would be premium to Celestron Omni Plossl, since it is both exceptional quality and higher-priced. BCO is not as high priced but of exceptional quality.
Yes you were and so am I. Language is not so clear.
Scopes: Refs: Orion ST80, SV 80EDA f7, TS 102ED f11 Newts: AWB 130mm, f5, Z12 f5; Cats: VMC110L, Intes MK66,VMC200L f9.75 EPs: KK Fujiyama Orthoscopics, 2x Vixen NPLs (40-6mm) and BCOs, Baader Mark IV zooms, TV Panoptics, Delos, Plossl 32-8mm. Mixed brand Masuyama/Astroplans Binoculars: Nikon Aculon 10x50, Celestron 15x70, Baader Maxbright. Mounts: Star Seeker IV, Vixen Porta II, Celestron CG5
Bigzmey wrote: ↑Wed Sep 07, 2022 12:14 am
Just checked Webster and definitions for premium are
: of exceptional quality or amount
also : higher-priced
So, I was within my rights. TV Plossl would be premium to Celestron Omni Plossl, since it is both exceptional quality and higher-priced. BCO is not as high priced but of exceptional quality.
Yes you were and so am I. Language is not so clear.
So since language is not so precise I prefer to keep the price and the performance concepts distinct. It's a matter of taste, I suppose. I like my usage because it permits sharper and clearer distinctions. It also make price performance ratios clearer.
Last edited by notFritzArgelander on Wed Sep 07, 2022 6:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
Scopes: Refs: Orion ST80, SV 80EDA f7, TS 102ED f11 Newts: AWB 130mm, f5, Z12 f5; Cats: VMC110L, Intes MK66,VMC200L f9.75 EPs: KK Fujiyama Orthoscopics, 2x Vixen NPLs (40-6mm) and BCOs, Baader Mark IV zooms, TV Panoptics, Delos, Plossl 32-8mm. Mixed brand Masuyama/Astroplans Binoculars: Nikon Aculon 10x50, Celestron 15x70, Baader Maxbright. Mounts: Star Seeker IV, Vixen Porta II, Celestron CG5
Bigzmey wrote: ↑Tue Sep 06, 2022 8:32 pm
I can see a scenario where single coating can outperform budget multicoating in transmission. However, if we are talking about top performers, premium multicoating in my experience with faint galaxies always outperforms single coating. Of cause, it is apples to oranges since none of premium EPs are offered with single coating. There should be a good reason for that.
You do not consider Brandon eyepieces as premium?
Gabrielle See Far Sticks: Elita 103/1575, AOM FLT 105/1000, Bresser 127/1200 BV, Nočný stopár 152/1200, Vyrobené doma 70/700, Stellarvue NHNG DX 80/552, TAL RS 100/1000, Vixen SD115s/885 EQ: TAL MT-1, Vixen SXP, SXP2, AXJ, AXD Az/Alt: AYO Digi II, Stellarvue M2C, Argo Navis encoders on both Tripods: Berlebach Planet (2), Uni 28 Astro, Report 372, TAL factory maple, Vixen ASG-CB90, Vixen AXD-TR102 Diagonals: Astro-Physics, Baader Amici, Baader Herschel, iStar Blue, Stellarvue DX, Tak prism, TAL, Vixen Eyepieces: Antares to Zeiss (1011110) The only culture I have is from yogurt
Bigzmey wrote: ↑Tue Sep 06, 2022 8:32 pm
I can see a scenario where single coating can outperform budget multicoating in transmission. However, if we are talking about top performers, premium multicoating in my experience with faint galaxies always outperforms single coating. Of cause, it is apples to oranges since none of premium EPs are offered with single coating. There should be a good reason for that.
The smooth chromed-brass barrel is either from a borked Ohi ortho' or a Bresser Plossl. I feel much more confident using this in a Baader helical focuser now.
Bigzmey wrote: ↑Tue Sep 06, 2022 8:32 pm
I can see a scenario where single coating can outperform budget multicoating in transmission. However, if we are talking about top performers, premium multicoating in my experience with faint galaxies always outperforms single coating. Of cause, it is apples to oranges since none of premium EPs are offered with single coating. There should be a good reason for that.
You do not consider Brandon eyepieces as premium?
I just never considered them, should I?
Considering Questar used them in their famous Mak's..... those Questar-guys knew perfectly what they were doing.
I use one, a 12 mm in my SW 102 MAK grabngo, for a short good quality look of Jupiter, Moon etc and double stars.
Not the widest field of all, but quite a crisp image.
So, yes, I suppose you could try..
Refractors in frequency of use : *SW Evostar 120ED F/7.5 (all round ), * Vixen 102ED F/9 (vintage), both on Vixen GPDX. GrabnGo on Alt/AZ : *SW Startravel 102 F/5 refractor( widefield, Sun, push-to), *OMC140 Maksutov F/14.3 ( planets). Most used Eyepieces: *Panoptic 24, *Morpheus 14, *Leica ASPH zoom, *Zeiss barlow, *Pentax XO5. Commonly used bino's : *Jena 10X50 , * Canon 10X30 IS,*Swarovski Habicht 7X42, * Celestron 15X70, *Kasai 2.3X40 Rijswijk Public Observatory: * Astro-Physics Starfire 130 f/8, * 6 inch Newton, * C9.25, * Meade 14 inch LX600 ACF, *Lunt. Amateur astronomer since 1970.
These chromed-brass barrels seem to be a lot better than the originals. I want to try these on M42 later in the week with my 127mm Mak'. The 9mm was the poorest performer so I haven't re-barreled that.
I suppose handling is easier this way with the smooth barrels in the brass compression ring of the Baader helical focusser. I recognize the difficulties with undercuts.
Since you have a nice set of Takahashi's too, can you do a quality review of the images they both generate? I am curious.
Refractors in frequency of use : *SW Evostar 120ED F/7.5 (all round ), * Vixen 102ED F/9 (vintage), both on Vixen GPDX. GrabnGo on Alt/AZ : *SW Startravel 102 F/5 refractor( widefield, Sun, push-to), *OMC140 Maksutov F/14.3 ( planets). Most used Eyepieces: *Panoptic 24, *Morpheus 14, *Leica ASPH zoom, *Zeiss barlow, *Pentax XO5. Commonly used bino's : *Jena 10X50 , * Canon 10X30 IS,*Swarovski Habicht 7X42, * Celestron 15X70, *Kasai 2.3X40 Rijswijk Public Observatory: * Astro-Physics Starfire 130 f/8, * 6 inch Newton, * C9.25, * Meade 14 inch LX600 ACF, *Lunt. Amateur astronomer since 1970.
TV Plossl would be premium to Celestron Omni Plossl, since it is both exceptional quality and higher-priced. BCO is not as high priced but of exceptional quality.
Language is not so clear.
Yay found it! 
