What happens if...

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What happens if...

#1

Post by UlteriorModem »


Still trying to configure the new computers.

Got a real issue with my calibration files not working with the lights.

What happens if your gain and offset settings are different from the lights to the calibration files?

I would think it would make little difference but I am having one heluva time with this so just asking.
Tom

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Re: What happens if...

#2

Post by XCalRocketMan »


As far as I am aware, different Gain/Offsets will have a detrimental affect on your calibration.
Scopes Celestron EdgeHD-11; William Optics GT102; William Optics ZS61; Criterion Dynamax-8 SCT
Mounts AP1100GTO mount w/APCCpro; iOptron iEQ30 Pro; Criterion Dynamax-8 SCT
Lenses Hyperstar-III; Celestron 0.7x FR; WO Flat/Reducer 0.8x
Guiding Celestron OAG w/ASI174mm mini; WO 50mm; Orion ST80
Cameras and Filters ZWO2600mm Pro w/Optolong 3nm NB and RGB; ZWOASI1600mm Pro (ZWO LRGB and Astrodon Ha-5nm, Oiii-3nm, Sii-5nm), QHY10, Canon 50D; ASI174mm mini; ASI462MC; ASI120MC
Misc Moonlite focuser on Edge - Feather-Touch focuser on GT102; ZWO EAF on ZS61; ZWO 2" and 31mm FWs; Kendrick Dew System, Temp-est Fans
Software NINA; PHD; APT; BYE; PI; APP; PSP; Registax; FireCapture; SharpCap
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Re: What happens if...

#3

Post by UlteriorModem »


Heh evidently it is true!
Attachments
integration.jpg
Tom

Current Equipment:
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Scope: 130mm f7 APO
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Re: What happens if...

#4

Post by SkyHiker »


For DSS, for example, you need the bias files to find the offset and subtract them from the lights, flats and darks. So, the offset must be the same everywhere. I think the gains don't matter. I set the gain for L to a lower value than for RGB and it was not a problem, for instance.
... Henk. :D Telescopes: GSO 12" Astrograph, "Comet Hunter" MN152, ES ED127CF, ES ED80, WO Redcat51, Z12, AT6RC, Celestron Skymaster 20x80, Mounts and tripod: Losmandy G11S with OnStep, AVX, Tiltall, Cameras: ASI2600MC, ASI2600MM, ASI120 mini, Fuji X-a1, Canon XSi, T6, ELPH 100HS, DIY: OnStep controller, Pi4b/power rig, Afocal adapter, Foldable Dob base, Az/Alt Dob setting circles, Accessories: ZWO 36 mm filter wheel, TV Paracorr 2, Baader MPCC Mk III, ES FF, SSAG, QHY OAG-M, EAF electronic focuser, Plossls, Barlows, Telrad, Laser collimators (Seben LK1, Z12, Howie Glatter), Cheshire, 2 Orion RACIs 8x50, Software: KStars-Ekos, DSS, PHD2, Nebulosity, Photo Gallery, Gimp, CHDK, Computers:Pi4b, 2x running KStars/Ekos, Toshiba Satellite 17", Website:Henk's astro images
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Re: What happens if...

#5

Post by STEVE333 »


For the ASI1600MM and the S/H/O filters I use the same gain, offset, and exposure time for the Lights and Darks (same camera temperature too).

For the Flats and Dark Flats I use the same gain and offsets. However, for each filter the exposure time is adjusted to reach approximately 32,000 counts for the Flats. The same exposure time is used for the corresponding Dark Flats.
The exposure time will usually be different for the S/H/O Flats.

Hope this makes sense.

Steve
Steve King: Light Pollution (Bortle 5)
Telescope + Mount + Guiding: W.O. Star71-ii + iOptron CEM40 EC + Orion Magnificent Mini AutoGuider
Camera: ASI 1600MM Pro + EFW Filter Wheel + Chroma 3nm Siii, Ha, Oiii + ZWO LRGB Filters
Software: PHD2; APT; PixInsight ***** My AP website: www.steveking.pictures
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Re: What happens if...

#6

Post by XCalRocketMan »


STEVE333 wrote: Fri Mar 18, 2022 5:38 am For the ASI1600MM and the S/H/O filters I use the same gain, offset, and exposure time for the Lights and Darks (same camera temperature too).

For the Flats and Dark Flats I use the same gain and offsets. However, for each filter the exposure time is adjusted to reach approximately 32,000 counts for the Flats. The same exposure time is used for the corresponding Dark Flats.
The exposure time will usually be different for the S/H/O Flats.

Hope this makes sense.

Steve
That's basically what I do.
Scopes Celestron EdgeHD-11; William Optics GT102; William Optics ZS61; Criterion Dynamax-8 SCT
Mounts AP1100GTO mount w/APCCpro; iOptron iEQ30 Pro; Criterion Dynamax-8 SCT
Lenses Hyperstar-III; Celestron 0.7x FR; WO Flat/Reducer 0.8x
Guiding Celestron OAG w/ASI174mm mini; WO 50mm; Orion ST80
Cameras and Filters ZWO2600mm Pro w/Optolong 3nm NB and RGB; ZWOASI1600mm Pro (ZWO LRGB and Astrodon Ha-5nm, Oiii-3nm, Sii-5nm), QHY10, Canon 50D; ASI174mm mini; ASI462MC; ASI120MC
Misc Moonlite focuser on Edge - Feather-Touch focuser on GT102; ZWO EAF on ZS61; ZWO 2" and 31mm FWs; Kendrick Dew System, Temp-est Fans
Software NINA; PHD; APT; BYE; PI; APP; PSP; Registax; FireCapture; SharpCap
Blog at: SkyAndRockets
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Re: What happens if...

#7

Post by UlteriorModem »


Yea I am pretty familiar with creating calibration files with same settings and duration as the lights. As you all know Ive been doing this a little while :D

Its just as I said new computers for imaging and processing so missed some settings evidently.

I think the root of my problem is that the lights data I took I basically forgot to configure the ZWO ASI settings in SGP. So I believe the gain and offset were basically 0, 0. Then tried to calibrate them with a master dark (of same duration/temp) that was put together before I had to replace the laptops which most likely had different gain and offset settings. The imaging laptop was not recoverable so I cannot go back and check what my settings were :(

I shot a new set of darks and bias but with the camera gain and offset set this time but when I used those to calibrate the light frames I still get a bunch of errors about noise scaling factors when integrating the light frames and the integration results is nothing short of worthless :) Interestingly if I turn off basically all of the dark subtraction / noise estimates, I can get a workable image out of it. But it still throws out the same errors at the final stage of integration.

Unfortunately I cannot find what the gain and offsets are for any of the .fits. I even looked at them in fits liberator and evidently the gain and offset are not included in the headers.
Attachments
error.png
Tom

Current Equipment:
Mount: Celestron CGX-L
Scope: 130mm f7 APO
Cam: ASI071mc-pro
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Re: What happens if...

#8

Post by seigell »


UlteriorModem wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 10:41 pm Heh evidently it is true!
Image
Despite any other Calibration Frame Failings re: Offset/Bias, it appears that you have seriously failed Flats.

In fact, it appears that your provided Image has Not had any Flats applied to them.
Can you confirm that you have the Flats (Master Flat) "checked" in DSS Filelist Tab?? (and that they are in fact Flats??)

You might also want to ensure that SGP isn't configured to Rotate/Flip your Lights captured "after new laptop", as the result is what one would expect if the Flat were Inverted (and the Field had stronger Vignetting on one side than the other).

Just observations...
ES AR152 / ES 80ED Apo / Orion 8in F/3.9 / C9.25-SCT / C6-SCT / C10-NGT / AT6RC / ST-80 / AstroView 90 / Meade 6000 APO 115mm
CGEM (w HyperTune and ADM bling) / 2x CG5-AGT / Forest of Tripod legs / Star Adventurer / Orion EQ-G
550D (Modded-G.Honis) / 60D / 400D / NexImage / NexGuide / Mini 50 SSAG / ST-8300C / ASI120MM-S / ASI1600MM-Cool
Dark Skies in SW CO when I can get there, and badly light polluted backyard when I can't... (Currently Self-Exiled to Muggy Central Florida...)
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Re: What happens if...

#9

Post by UlteriorModem »


No no flats were applied, however that gradient is due to noise scaling factor calibrations failing.

I will post one later today with the scaling factors disabled to show the difference.
Tom

Current Equipment:
Mount: Celestron CGX-L
Scope: 130mm f7 APO
Cam: ASI071mc-pro
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Re: What happens if...

#10

Post by STEVE333 »


UlteriorModem wrote: Fri Mar 18, 2022 2:27 pm Yea I am pretty familiar with creating calibration files with same settings and duration as the lights. As you all know Ive been doing this a little while :D

Its just as I said new computers for imaging and processing so missed some settings evidently.

I think the root of my problem is that the lights data I took I basically forgot to configure the ZWO ASI settings in SGP. So I believe the gain and offset were basically 0, 0. Then tried to calibrate them with a master dark (of same duration/temp) that was put together before I had to replace the laptops which most likely had different gain and offset settings. The imaging laptop was not recoverable so I cannot go back and check what my settings were :(

I shot a new set of darks and bias but with the camera gain and offset set this time but when I used those to calibrate the light frames I still get a bunch of errors about noise scaling factors when integrating the light frames and the integration results is nothing short of worthless :) Interestingly if I turn off basically all of the dark subtraction / noise estimates, I can get a workable image out of it. But it still throws out the same errors at the final stage of integration.

Unfortunately I cannot find what the gain and offsets are for any of the .fits. I even looked at them in fits liberator and evidently the gain and offset are not included in the headers.
Image

Sorry Tom, didn't mean to offend you :oops:
Have you been able to try your old calibration frames with a new set of Lights with the proper gain and offsets?

Hope you get this sorted out soon. It will feel soooooo good when it all works correctly again!!!

Steve
Steve King: Light Pollution (Bortle 5)
Telescope + Mount + Guiding: W.O. Star71-ii + iOptron CEM40 EC + Orion Magnificent Mini AutoGuider
Camera: ASI 1600MM Pro + EFW Filter Wheel + Chroma 3nm Siii, Ha, Oiii + ZWO LRGB Filters
Software: PHD2; APT; PixInsight ***** My AP website: www.steveking.pictures
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Re: What happens if...

#11

Post by UlteriorModem »


Haha... no offense taken :) Was a good suggestion!
Have you been able to try your old calibration frames with a new set of Lights with the proper gain and offsets?
No for one thing as I mentioned I have no idea what the gain and offset were for the existing data and the .fits meta tags do not record this info so no way to determine it. Also since the original imaging setup is wiped no way to just look it up.

I have not been able to get a new set of data due to the weather of course. But that will be my next plan of action.

Right now I have set a gain of 90 with an offset of 20 I 'think' that is Unity gain for the 071mc but honestly gain and offset are like some sort of secret code! I cant find any definitive list of settings anywhere. Just some vague guides here and there.
Tom

Current Equipment:
Mount: Celestron CGX-L
Scope: 130mm f7 APO
Cam: ASI071mc-pro
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Re: What happens if...

#12

Post by STEVE333 »


UlteriorModem wrote: Fri Mar 18, 2022 4:07 pm Haha... no offense taken :) Was a good suggestion!
Have you been able to try your old calibration frames with a new set of Lights with the proper gain and offsets?
No for one thing as I mentioned I have no idea what the gain and offset were for the existing data and the .fits meta tags do not record this info so no way to determine it. Also since the original imaging setup is wiped no way to just look it up.

I have not been able to get a new set of data due to the weather of course. But that will be my next plan of action.

Right now I have set a gain of 90 with an offset of 20 I 'think' that is Unity gain for the 071mc but honestly gain and offset are like some sort of secret code! I cant find any definitive list of settings anywhere. Just some vague guides here and there.

AP can be a frustrating hobby at times!!!!

I feel your frustration on the settings of Gain and Offset. Fortunately it appears that the Offset setting is not critical for these CMOS sensors. The Gain, however, is more important. Hopefully you can find where someone else is getting good images using your sensor and "follow their lead". Good luck Tom.

Steve
Steve King: Light Pollution (Bortle 5)
Telescope + Mount + Guiding: W.O. Star71-ii + iOptron CEM40 EC + Orion Magnificent Mini AutoGuider
Camera: ASI 1600MM Pro + EFW Filter Wheel + Chroma 3nm Siii, Ha, Oiii + ZWO LRGB Filters
Software: PHD2; APT; PixInsight ***** My AP website: www.steveking.pictures
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Re: What happens if...

#13

Post by SkyHiker »


STEVE333 wrote: Fri Mar 18, 2022 4:40 pm I feel your frustration on the settings of Gain and Offset. Fortunately, it appears that the Offset setting is not critical for these CMOS sensors. The Gain, however, is more important. Hopefully you can find where someone else is getting good images using your sensor and "follow their lead". Good luck Tom.
My experience is different. At one time I worked without bias frames and got awful results. I took it to the DSS group and they straightened me out. The bias files provide the offset for DSS that gets subtracted from all so that's why the offset matters.

It probably also depends on whether you add an offset or not during the data acquisition, I usually do because I don't want the data to get clipped. DSS takes the offset and corrects all frames for it. If it is wrong you will get poor results.

I agree that for the darks you need the exact same settings including exposure time. Fortunately, with many new sensors, darks are a thing of the past, at least for astro cameras. Maybe I'm spoiled with my ASI2600 but I never turn the cooler on and I never find something that looks like dark noise. I'm still learning but this is what it looks like.

For all non-dark calibration frames, I can't think of a reason why the gain would matter. If there is a reason why, I would like to know.
... Henk. :D Telescopes: GSO 12" Astrograph, "Comet Hunter" MN152, ES ED127CF, ES ED80, WO Redcat51, Z12, AT6RC, Celestron Skymaster 20x80, Mounts and tripod: Losmandy G11S with OnStep, AVX, Tiltall, Cameras: ASI2600MC, ASI2600MM, ASI120 mini, Fuji X-a1, Canon XSi, T6, ELPH 100HS, DIY: OnStep controller, Pi4b/power rig, Afocal adapter, Foldable Dob base, Az/Alt Dob setting circles, Accessories: ZWO 36 mm filter wheel, TV Paracorr 2, Baader MPCC Mk III, ES FF, SSAG, QHY OAG-M, EAF electronic focuser, Plossls, Barlows, Telrad, Laser collimators (Seben LK1, Z12, Howie Glatter), Cheshire, 2 Orion RACIs 8x50, Software: KStars-Ekos, DSS, PHD2, Nebulosity, Photo Gallery, Gimp, CHDK, Computers:Pi4b, 2x running KStars/Ekos, Toshiba Satellite 17", Website:Henk's astro images
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Re: What happens if...

#14

Post by STEVE333 »


SkyHiker wrote: Fri Mar 18, 2022 5:27 pm
STEVE333 wrote: Fri Mar 18, 2022 4:40 pm I feel your frustration on the settings of Gain and Offset. Fortunately, it appears that the Offset setting is not critical for these CMOS sensors. The Gain, however, is more important. Hopefully you can find where someone else is getting good images using your sensor and "follow their lead". Good luck Tom.
My experience is different. At one time I worked without bias frames and got awful results. I took it to the DSS group and they straightened me out. The bias files provide the offset for DSS that gets subtracted from all so that's why the offset matters.

It probably also depends on whether you add an offset or not during the data acquisition, I usually do because I don't want the data to get clipped. DSS takes the offset and corrects all frames for it. If it is wrong you will get poor results.

I agree that for the darks you need the exact same settings including exposure time. Fortunately, with many new sensors, darks are a thing of the past, at least for astro cameras. Maybe I'm spoiled with my ASI2600 but I never turn the cooler on and I never find something that looks like dark noise. I'm still learning but this is what it looks like.

For all non-dark calibration frames, I can't think of a reason why the gain would matter. If there is a reason why, I would like to know.

Just a clarification on my statement that Offset is not critical. What I meant is that whether you use an Offset of 20 or 40 you won't see any difference in the images. However, once you pick an Offset then you NEED to use that same Offset for the Dark/Light/Bias frames.

The Offset is a digital offset added to the signals before they are sent to the A/D converter. You want the same Offset on all these signals (Darks, Lights, Bias) so that it can be accurately removed in processing to get back to the desired Raw signal.

Steve
Steve King: Light Pollution (Bortle 5)
Telescope + Mount + Guiding: W.O. Star71-ii + iOptron CEM40 EC + Orion Magnificent Mini AutoGuider
Camera: ASI 1600MM Pro + EFW Filter Wheel + Chroma 3nm Siii, Ha, Oiii + ZWO LRGB Filters
Software: PHD2; APT; PixInsight ***** My AP website: www.steveking.pictures
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Re: What happens if...

#15

Post by UlteriorModem »


So this is the result if I disable all noise evalluation and clipping for integration. Same data but is calibrated.

Note I still get the errors on final integration but not for the individual channels!

No further processing other than a stretch and a scnr (green).
Attachments
int 2.jpg
Tom

Current Equipment:
Mount: Celestron CGX-L
Scope: 130mm f7 APO
Cam: ASI071mc-pro
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Re: What happens if...

#16

Post by SkyHiker »


UlteriorModem wrote: Fri Mar 18, 2022 6:29 pm So this is the result if I disable all noise evalluation and clipping for integration. Same data but is calibrated.

Note I still get the errors on final integration but not for the individual channels!

No further processing other than a stretch and a scnr (green).
Image
That image in full screen makes me feel like I'm in a Star Wars scene at warp speed!
... Henk. :D Telescopes: GSO 12" Astrograph, "Comet Hunter" MN152, ES ED127CF, ES ED80, WO Redcat51, Z12, AT6RC, Celestron Skymaster 20x80, Mounts and tripod: Losmandy G11S with OnStep, AVX, Tiltall, Cameras: ASI2600MC, ASI2600MM, ASI120 mini, Fuji X-a1, Canon XSi, T6, ELPH 100HS, DIY: OnStep controller, Pi4b/power rig, Afocal adapter, Foldable Dob base, Az/Alt Dob setting circles, Accessories: ZWO 36 mm filter wheel, TV Paracorr 2, Baader MPCC Mk III, ES FF, SSAG, QHY OAG-M, EAF electronic focuser, Plossls, Barlows, Telrad, Laser collimators (Seben LK1, Z12, Howie Glatter), Cheshire, 2 Orion RACIs 8x50, Software: KStars-Ekos, DSS, PHD2, Nebulosity, Photo Gallery, Gimp, CHDK, Computers:Pi4b, 2x running KStars/Ekos, Toshiba Satellite 17", Website:Henk's astro images
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Re: What happens if...

#17

Post by UlteriorModem »


Yea there is obviously some registration issues :D
Tom

Current Equipment:
Mount: Celestron CGX-L
Scope: 130mm f7 APO
Cam: ASI071mc-pro
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Re: What happens if...

#18

Post by STEVE333 »


UlteriorModem wrote: Fri Mar 18, 2022 6:29 pm So this is the result if I disable all noise evalluation and clipping for integration. Same data but is calibrated.

Note I still get the errors on final integration but not for the individual channels!

No further processing other than a stretch and a scnr (green).
Image

The stars on axis look fine. However, there is some nasty looking Coma as you get away from the center.

Steve
Steve King: Light Pollution (Bortle 5)
Telescope + Mount + Guiding: W.O. Star71-ii + iOptron CEM40 EC + Orion Magnificent Mini AutoGuider
Camera: ASI 1600MM Pro + EFW Filter Wheel + Chroma 3nm Siii, Ha, Oiii + ZWO LRGB Filters
Software: PHD2; APT; PixInsight ***** My AP website: www.steveking.pictures
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Re: What happens if...

#19

Post by UlteriorModem »


Yea I saw that hope it aint tilt cause its the APO with a field flattener on it. Might just be an artifact of the 'crap' data.

OTA, cam and everything else has not changed and did not have coma like that before so...
Tom

Current Equipment:
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Scope: 130mm f7 APO
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Re: What happens if...

#20

Post by STEVE333 »


Any chance the spacing between the field flattener and the camera has changed? Probably not, but, thought I would ask?

Steve
Steve King: Light Pollution (Bortle 5)
Telescope + Mount + Guiding: W.O. Star71-ii + iOptron CEM40 EC + Orion Magnificent Mini AutoGuider
Camera: ASI 1600MM Pro + EFW Filter Wheel + Chroma 3nm Siii, Ha, Oiii + ZWO LRGB Filters
Software: PHD2; APT; PixInsight ***** My AP website: www.steveking.pictures
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