filters, filters and filters.

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filters, filters and filters.

#1

Post by messier 111 »


hi all ,

I already have a filter, Celestron 94123 UHC/LPR filter
which I used with my 120mm.

now I was wondering if it was worth buying a filter, televue nebustar 2 or the oiii.

what is the real difference between the two.

is it really worth using with an 85 mm televue

or if I would spend money unnecessarily .

What do you think .
thanks all .
I LOVE REFRACTORS , :Astronomer1: :sprefac:

REFRACTOR , TS-Optics Doublet SD-APO 125 mm f/7.8 . Lunt 80mm MT Ha Doublet Refractor .

EYEPIECES, Delos , Delite and 26mm Nagler t5 , 2 zoom Svbony 7-21 , Orion Premium Linear BinoViewer .

FILTER , Nebustar 2 tele vue . Apm solar wedge . contrast booster 2 inches .

Mounts , berno mack 3 with telepod , cg-4 motorized , eq6 pro belt drive .

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Re: filters, filters and filters.

#2

Post by notFritzArgelander »


I have a Stellarvue ED80 Access and regularly use filters with it.

The Altair Astro Tri and Quad Band Filters are what I use instead of UHC filters and I find that they work quite well for me, even in an urban area as detailed in my most recent observing report of 12 March.

I do find that narrow band filters are really useful. H-beta and OIII reveal very fine details on emission and planetary nebulae. I use the Baader filters for that. Others have other preferences, of course.

If my 80mm scope benefits from using filters why wouldn't an 85?
Scopes: Refs: Orion ST80, SV 80EDA f7, TS 102ED f11 Newts: AWB 130mm, f5, Z12 f5; Cats: VMC110L, Intes MK66,VMC200L f9.75 EPs: KK Fujiyama Orthoscopics, 2x Vixen NPLs (40-6mm) and BCOs, Baader Mark IV zooms, TV Panoptics, Delos, Plossl 32-8mm. Mixed brand Masuyama/Astroplans Binoculars: Nikon Aculon 10x50, Celestron 15x70, Baader Maxbright. Mounts: Star Seeker IV, Vixen Porta II, Celestron CG5
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Re: filters, filters and filters.

#3

Post by messier 111 »


notFritzArgelander wrote: Mon Mar 14, 2022 4:30 pm I have a Stellarvue ED80 Access and regularly use filters with it.

The Altair Astro Tri and Quad Band Filters are what I use instead of UHC filters and I find that they work quite well for me, even in an urban area as detailed in my most recent observing report of 12 March.

I do find that narrow band filters are really useful. H-beta and OIII reveal very fine details on emission and planetary nebulae. I use the Baader filters for that. Others have other preferences, of course.

If my 80mm scope benefits from using filters why wouldn't an 85?
I am happy to know that it works well in your 80mm.
It's still a good expensive investment.
thanks.
I LOVE REFRACTORS , :Astronomer1: :sprefac:

REFRACTOR , TS-Optics Doublet SD-APO 125 mm f/7.8 . Lunt 80mm MT Ha Doublet Refractor .

EYEPIECES, Delos , Delite and 26mm Nagler t5 , 2 zoom Svbony 7-21 , Orion Premium Linear BinoViewer .

FILTER , Nebustar 2 tele vue . Apm solar wedge . contrast booster 2 inches .

Mounts , berno mack 3 with telepod , cg-4 motorized , eq6 pro belt drive .

“Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in.”
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Re: filters, filters and filters.

#4

Post by messier 111 »


someone else ?
I LOVE REFRACTORS , :Astronomer1: :sprefac:

REFRACTOR , TS-Optics Doublet SD-APO 125 mm f/7.8 . Lunt 80mm MT Ha Doublet Refractor .

EYEPIECES, Delos , Delite and 26mm Nagler t5 , 2 zoom Svbony 7-21 , Orion Premium Linear BinoViewer .

FILTER , Nebustar 2 tele vue . Apm solar wedge . contrast booster 2 inches .

Mounts , berno mack 3 with telepod , cg-4 motorized , eq6 pro belt drive .

“Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in.”
― Isaac Asimov

Jean-Yves :flags-canada:
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Re: filters, filters and filters.

#5

Post by notFritzArgelander »


You might try @j.gardavsky, @WilliamPaolini and / or @Don Pensack for different POVs. You will not find a consensus but ... :shrug:
Scopes: Refs: Orion ST80, SV 80EDA f7, TS 102ED f11 Newts: AWB 130mm, f5, Z12 f5; Cats: VMC110L, Intes MK66,VMC200L f9.75 EPs: KK Fujiyama Orthoscopics, 2x Vixen NPLs (40-6mm) and BCOs, Baader Mark IV zooms, TV Panoptics, Delos, Plossl 32-8mm. Mixed brand Masuyama/Astroplans Binoculars: Nikon Aculon 10x50, Celestron 15x70, Baader Maxbright. Mounts: Star Seeker IV, Vixen Porta II, Celestron CG5
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Re: filters, filters and filters.

#6

Post by Bigzmey »


Celestron UHC is a general purpose broad band/light pollution filter. In my experience such filters can provide limited help in detection of faint DSOs and comets in light polluted skies but typically they are not strong enough for nebulae.

For nebulae I would recommend good quality narrow band filter like Astronomik or Lumicon UHC. I know it is confusing but different companies call UHC different types of filters. Televue Nebustar 2 is also a narrow band filter, but I don't have any hands on experience with and can't tell how good is it.

A narrow band filter should satisfy needs of a casual nebula observer. If you want to go deeper you can add good quality OIII and H-beta filters to your collection. I would recommend Astronomik and Lumicon brand, but others may have their own preferences as well.

But don't be tempted to save money with budget filters. You should go with trusted brands. Sadly, I can't no longer recommend mid tier brands like Orion or DGM. Their QC is spotty and while good samples work you may and up with complete dud.
Scopes: Stellarvue: SV102ED; Celestron: 9.25" EdgeHD, 8" SCT, 150ST, Onyx 80ED; iOptron: Hankmeister 6" Mak; SW: 7" Mak; Meade: 80ST.
Mounts: SW: SkyTee2, AzGTi; iOptron: AZMP; ES: Twilight I; Bresser: EXOS2; UA: MicroStar.
Binos: APM: 100-90 APO; Canon: IS 15x50; Orion: Binoviewer, LG II 15x70, WV 10x50, Nikon: AE 16x50, 10x50, 8x40.
EPs: Pentax: XWs & XFs; TeleVue: Delites, Panoptic & Plossls; ES: 68, 62; Vixen: SLVs; Baader: BCOs, Aspherics, Mark IV.
Diagonals: Baader: BBHS mirror, Zeiss Spec T2 prism, Clicklock dielectric; TeleVue: Evebrite dielectric; AltairAstro: 2" prism.
Filters: Lumicon: DeepSky, UHC, OIII, H-beta; Baader: Moon & SkyGlow, Contrast Booster, UHC-S, 6-color set; Astronomik: UHC.

Observing: DSOs: 3106 (Completed: Messier, Herschel 1, 2, 3. In progress: H2,500: 2180, S110: 77). Doubles: 2382, Comets: 34, Asteroids: 255
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Re: filters, filters and filters.

#7

Post by Bigzmey »


As for different types of filters

Broad band (LP) filters are designed to pass as much of visual light as possible while blocking strong emission bands from certain types of street lights.

OIII filters only pass two narrow bands from ionized oxygen and block the rest of visual light.

H-beta filters only pass one narrow band for hydrogen and block the rest of visual light.

Narrow band filters (often called UHC) pass OIII and H-beta bands, and sometimes one or two other bands like H-alpha.

Different types of nebulae emit either OIII or H-beta or both. This why the filters which pass only those specific bands are very effective for nebula detection.
Scopes: Stellarvue: SV102ED; Celestron: 9.25" EdgeHD, 8" SCT, 150ST, Onyx 80ED; iOptron: Hankmeister 6" Mak; SW: 7" Mak; Meade: 80ST.
Mounts: SW: SkyTee2, AzGTi; iOptron: AZMP; ES: Twilight I; Bresser: EXOS2; UA: MicroStar.
Binos: APM: 100-90 APO; Canon: IS 15x50; Orion: Binoviewer, LG II 15x70, WV 10x50, Nikon: AE 16x50, 10x50, 8x40.
EPs: Pentax: XWs & XFs; TeleVue: Delites, Panoptic & Plossls; ES: 68, 62; Vixen: SLVs; Baader: BCOs, Aspherics, Mark IV.
Diagonals: Baader: BBHS mirror, Zeiss Spec T2 prism, Clicklock dielectric; TeleVue: Evebrite dielectric; AltairAstro: 2" prism.
Filters: Lumicon: DeepSky, UHC, OIII, H-beta; Baader: Moon & SkyGlow, Contrast Booster, UHC-S, 6-color set; Astronomik: UHC.

Observing: DSOs: 3106 (Completed: Messier, Herschel 1, 2, 3. In progress: H2,500: 2180, S110: 77). Doubles: 2382, Comets: 34, Asteroids: 255
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Re: filters, filters and filters.

#8

Post by messier 111 »


Bigzmey wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 8:23 pm As for different types of filters

Broad band (LP) filters are designed to pass as much of visual light as possible while blocking strong emission bands from certain types of street lights.

OIII filters only pass two narrow bands from ionized oxygen and block the rest of visual light.

H-beta filters only pass one narrow band for hydrogen and block the rest of visual light.

Narrow band filters (often called UHC) pass OIII and H-beta bands, and sometimes one or two other bands like H-alpha.

Different types of nebulae emit either OIII or H-beta or both. This why the filters which pass only those specific bands are very effective for nebula detection.
thanks ,
love the infos .
I LOVE REFRACTORS , :Astronomer1: :sprefac:

REFRACTOR , TS-Optics Doublet SD-APO 125 mm f/7.8 . Lunt 80mm MT Ha Doublet Refractor .

EYEPIECES, Delos , Delite and 26mm Nagler t5 , 2 zoom Svbony 7-21 , Orion Premium Linear BinoViewer .

FILTER , Nebustar 2 tele vue . Apm solar wedge . contrast booster 2 inches .

Mounts , berno mack 3 with telepod , cg-4 motorized , eq6 pro belt drive .

“Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in.”
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Re: filters, filters and filters.

#9

Post by WilliamPaolini »


The Highpoint site shows a spectrum for the Celestron UHC/LPR filter: https://www.highpointscientific.com/cel ... lter-94123. Or here for just the chart - https://www.highpointscientific.com/pub ... ture_3.jpg

There is this site that has the spectrums for lots of filters and you can overlay them all. It is great for evaluating the different filter types. It does not have the spectrum for the Celestron but the spectrum for the Lumicon Deep Sky is very close. Here is the site: https://searchlight.semrock.com/?sid=a0 ... 3d7e7c0eb8.

As has been said, the Celestron, like the Lumicon Deep Sky, is a fine general purpose filter to help out with light pollution. It is mild making it appear you are at maybe the next zone darker site than you are. So nothing earth shattering but a nice improvement. The benefit of these milder filters is that they let more stars show through than the aggressive nebula filters so the view of nebulas with embedded stars looks nicer. When you move to the more aggressive filters with narrower spectrum passed, while many nebula may show more starkly, many of the stars are gone from the view.

I personally like my Lumicon Deep Sky Filter as I do not like aggressive filters too much because I want the aesthetic of the embedded faint stars to stay in the view. But for folks that really like teasing out details in some nebula, at the expense of the stars, then the more aggressive filters work better.

Another nice thing with the less aggressive filters is that you can operate at higher magnifications and smaller exit pupils. So with your filter no real problem even going as low as a 1mm to 1.5mm exit pupil. With the more aggressive filters, "generally" the exit pupil really needs to be in the 2-3mm range, then even the 4-5mm range for the very aggressive things like O-III. I say generally because there are always exceptions. As example, if you are at a dark site where you can fully dark adapt your eye then you can get away using smaller exit pupils. But I am usually at a yellow-green zone so while a nice sky many times that is not dark enough to fully dark adapt I find, especially while in suburbia where a porch light or two may be in the distance.

I personally do not like O-III filters as too aggressive for my tastes and I am not interested in observing nebula as critically as I like planetary. So besides my Lumicon Deep Sky which is similar to yours, I only go as aggressive as a standard narrower band UHC (and Astronomik UHC). Now with that more aggressive filter, if you pull it up on that site I provided, you will see that in addition to the passing the spectrum around the 500nm range, it also passes the red in the 630+nm range. I personally do not like the UHC filters that also pass the reds because the brighter stars then appear as half blue and half red, which to me looks odd and distracting. Yes, you are not supposed to be concerning yourself with stars when using a nebula filter, but I cannot help it - LOL. So on my list to get is the TV Nebustar Bandmate II as it is aggressive near the 500nm range like my Astronomik UHC, but it does not pass the reds so will not get those funky split blue-red star images.

The O-III is more aggressive still and to my eye needs a 4mm or 5mm exit pupil to show well, so too aggressive for my tastes since I prefer a bit more magnification than 4-5mm since I use smaller aperture scopes (4-6"). If I used say a 10" scope where a 4mm exit pupil will get you about 63x, then I might like it more. But in a 6" scope a 4mm exit pupil is only 38x and too low power for my tastes.

If I were in your shoes, I would keep the Celestron UHC as good for accentuating nebula just a bit and still keeps the star points looking normal color-wise. Then I would get the TV Bandmate II Nebustar as the more aggressive filter in the arsenal. I would not opt for an O-III as would prefer the slightly wider spectrum of the TV Bandmate II Nebustar. My only caveat is that IMO one needs to really like picking apart nebula when observing to use the more aggressive filters. If you are just a casual observer of those and cash is tight then just stick with your current filter and pump a little more magnification to bring out details since that broader filter will allow you to do that. Then look for deals on any used TV Bandmate II Nebustar or Lumicon looks to have a bit better transmission.
-Bill

U.S.A.F. Veteran - Visual Amateur Astronomer since 1966 - Fully Retired since 2019
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Re: filters, filters and filters.

#10

Post by messier 111 »


WilliamPaolini wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 1:17 am The Highpoint site shows a spectrum for the Celestron UHC/LPR filter: https://www.highpointscientific.com/cel ... lter-94123. Or here for just the chart - https://www.highpointscientific.com/pub ... ture_3.jpg

There is this site that has the spectrums for lots of filters and you can overlay them all. It is great for evaluating the different filter types. It does not have the spectrum for the Celestron but the spectrum for the Lumicon Deep Sky is very close. Here is the site: https://searchlight.semrock.com/?sid=a0 ... 3d7e7c0eb8.

As has been said, the Celestron, like the Lumicon Deep Sky, is a fine general purpose filter to help out with light pollution. It is mild making it appear you are at maybe the next zone darker site than you are. So nothing earth shattering but a nice improvement. The benefit of these milder filters is that they let more stars show through than the aggressive nebula filters so the view of nebulas with embedded stars looks nicer. When you move to the more aggressive filters with narrower spectrum passed, while many nebula may show more starkly, many of the stars are gone from the view.

I personally like my Lumicon Deep Sky Filter as I do not like aggressive filters too much because I want the aesthetic of the embedded faint stars to stay in the view. But for folks that really like teasing out details in some nebula, at the expense of the stars, then the more aggressive filters work better.

Another nice thing with the less aggressive filters is that you can operate at higher magnifications and smaller exit pupils. So with your filter no real problem even going as low as a 1mm to 1.5mm exit pupil. With the more aggressive filters, "generally" the exit pupil really needs to be in the 2-3mm range, then even the 4-5mm range for the very aggressive things like O-III. I say generally because there are always exceptions. As example, if you are at a dark site where you can fully dark adapt your eye then you can get away using smaller exit pupils. But I am usually at a yellow-green zone so while a nice sky many times that is not dark enough to fully dark adapt I find, especially while in suburbia where a porch light or two may be in the distance.

I personally do not like O-III filters as too aggressive for my tastes and I am not interested in observing nebula as critically as I like planetary. So besides my Lumicon Deep Sky which is similar to yours, I only go as aggressive as a standard narrower band UHC (and Astronomik UHC). Now with that more aggressive filter, if you pull it up on that site I provided, you will see that in addition to the passing the spectrum around the 500nm range, it also passes the red in the 630+nm range. I personally do not like the UHC filters that also pass the reds because the brighter stars then appear as half blue and half red, which to me looks odd and distracting. Yes, you are not supposed to be concerning yourself with stars when using a nebula filter, but I cannot help it - LOL. So on my list to get is the TV Nebustar Bandmate II as it is aggressive near the 500nm range like my Astronomik UHC, but it does not pass the reds so will not get those funky split blue-red star images.

The O-III is more aggressive still and to my eye needs a 4mm or 5mm exit pupil to show well, so too aggressive for my tastes since I prefer a bit more magnification than 4-5mm since I use smaller aperture scopes (4-6"). If I used say a 10" scope where a 4mm exit pupil will get you about 63x, then I might like it more. But in a 6" scope a 4mm exit pupil is only 38x and too low power for my tastes.

If I were in your shoes, I would keep the Celestron UHC as good for accentuating nebula just a bit and still keeps the star points looking normal color-wise. Then I would get the TV Bandmate II Nebustar as the more aggressive filter in the arsenal. I would not opt for an O-III as would prefer the slightly wider spectrum of the TV Bandmate II Nebustar. My only caveat is that IMO one needs to really like picking apart nebula when observing to use the more aggressive filters. If you are just a casual observer of those and cash is tight then just stick with your current filter and pump a little more magnification to bring out details since that broader filter will allow you to do that. Then look for deals on any used TV Bandmate II Nebustar or Lumicon looks to have a bit better transmission.
Thank you very much Bill,
this summary is very much appreciated, clear and precise.
I just saved some money lol
Thanks again Bill.
I LOVE REFRACTORS , :Astronomer1: :sprefac:

REFRACTOR , TS-Optics Doublet SD-APO 125 mm f/7.8 . Lunt 80mm MT Ha Doublet Refractor .

EYEPIECES, Delos , Delite and 26mm Nagler t5 , 2 zoom Svbony 7-21 , Orion Premium Linear BinoViewer .

FILTER , Nebustar 2 tele vue . Apm solar wedge . contrast booster 2 inches .

Mounts , berno mack 3 with telepod , cg-4 motorized , eq6 pro belt drive .

“Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in.”
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Re: filters, filters and filters.

#11

Post by Bigzmey »


@WilliamPaolini Hi Bill, how old is your Astronomik UHC? My copy does not show any split red/blue colors on stars. It sounds to me that your filter may have a delamination issue.

I have used a few narrowband filters (Lumicon, Orion, Astronomik and DGM) they do color stars in somewhat different tints but the colors are monochromic, no double images or double colors.
Scopes: Stellarvue: SV102ED; Celestron: 9.25" EdgeHD, 8" SCT, 150ST, Onyx 80ED; iOptron: Hankmeister 6" Mak; SW: 7" Mak; Meade: 80ST.
Mounts: SW: SkyTee2, AzGTi; iOptron: AZMP; ES: Twilight I; Bresser: EXOS2; UA: MicroStar.
Binos: APM: 100-90 APO; Canon: IS 15x50; Orion: Binoviewer, LG II 15x70, WV 10x50, Nikon: AE 16x50, 10x50, 8x40.
EPs: Pentax: XWs & XFs; TeleVue: Delites, Panoptic & Plossls; ES: 68, 62; Vixen: SLVs; Baader: BCOs, Aspherics, Mark IV.
Diagonals: Baader: BBHS mirror, Zeiss Spec T2 prism, Clicklock dielectric; TeleVue: Evebrite dielectric; AltairAstro: 2" prism.
Filters: Lumicon: DeepSky, UHC, OIII, H-beta; Baader: Moon & SkyGlow, Contrast Booster, UHC-S, 6-color set; Astronomik: UHC.

Observing: DSOs: 3106 (Completed: Messier, Herschel 1, 2, 3. In progress: H2,500: 2180, S110: 77). Doubles: 2382, Comets: 34, Asteroids: 255
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Re: filters, filters and filters.

#12

Post by j.gardavsky »


Hello Messier 111

the recommendation by Bill P. is agood starter, and the Lumicon Deep Sky filters, especially when you find them in the classifieds, like
https://www.ebay.de/itm/125214502959?mk ... olid=10050,
change the hands without breaking the bank account.

A second filter I would recommend, is an OIII filter.
My Baader visual 10nm filters (I have a pair) find a frequent use on the planetary nebulae, supernova remnants, Wolf-Rayet nebulae, and on the star birth regions. These are about nice 200 objects for the small aperture telescopes and big binoculars (70mm up to 100mm).

Clear skies,
JG
6" F/5 Sky-Watcher achro, 2" BBHS Star Diagonal, 2" zenith prism, 1.25" Takahashi prism
Leica 82mm APO Televid
Eyepieces: Docter UWA; Leica B WW and WW Asph. Zoom; Leica HC Plan S and L, monocentric; Pentax SMC XW, O-, XO; Tak MC O, Carl Zeiss B WW, and Pl, E-Pl, S-Pl, W-Pl;
Swarovski SW; Baader Symmetric Diascope Edition; Nikon NAV SW, ; TMB supermonocentric; Rodenstock; Vixen HR; TV Delos
Filters: Astrodon, Astronomik, Baader, Balzers, Zeiss West and East, Lumicon
Binoculars (7x42 up to 15x85): Docter Nobilem, Leica Ultravid, Nikon Astroluxe, Swarovski EL Swarovision; BA8 (Kunming Optical)
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Re: filters, filters and filters.

#13

Post by messier 111 »


j.gardavsky wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 7:53 pm Hello Messier 111

the recommendation by Bill P. is agood starter, and the Lumicon Deep Sky filters, especially when you find them in the classifieds, like
https://www.ebay.de/itm/125214502959?mk ... olid=10050,
change the hands without breaking the bank account.

A second filter I would recommend, is an OIII filter.
My Baader visual 10nm filters (I have a pair) find a frequent use on the planetary nebulae, supernova remnants, Wolf-Rayet nebulae, and on the star birth regions. These are about nice 200 objects for the small aperture telescopes and big binoculars (70mm up to 100mm).

Clear skies,
JG
thank you very much .
I LOVE REFRACTORS , :Astronomer1: :sprefac:

REFRACTOR , TS-Optics Doublet SD-APO 125 mm f/7.8 . Lunt 80mm MT Ha Doublet Refractor .

EYEPIECES, Delos , Delite and 26mm Nagler t5 , 2 zoom Svbony 7-21 , Orion Premium Linear BinoViewer .

FILTER , Nebustar 2 tele vue . Apm solar wedge . contrast booster 2 inches .

Mounts , berno mack 3 with telepod , cg-4 motorized , eq6 pro belt drive .

“Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in.”
― Isaac Asimov

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Re: filters, filters and filters.

#14

Post by WilliamPaolini »


Bigzmey wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 2:13 am @WilliamPaolini Hi Bill, how old is your Astronomik UHC? My copy does not show any split red/blue colors on stars. It sounds to me that your filter may have a delamination issue.

I have used a few narrowband filters (Lumicon, Orion, Astronomik and DGM) they do color stars in somewhat different tints but the colors are monochromic, no double images or double colors.
Hi. Not sure of the age. However, the red fringing on bright stars with some filters is a well known phenomena. You can find posts on this on IceInSpace and CloudyNights and others (https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/1827 ... ?p=2357554). So many see it. It shows on bright stars so not all stars, and it "may" be more noticeable when used on refractors vs. mirrored scopes since refractors have color crossings that are "close" and not all into one point like with mirrored scopes. So folks who use the filters that also pass the red spectrums with their Achros or Apos might see this phenomena more (I am guessing). And if the eyepiece being used has lateral color, like most wide fields, then it gets accentuated even more with these filters. My suggestion is next time you are out with your Astronomik UHC use it with your SV102 and point it at a mag 1 star and see what happens. My Astronomik UHC and Astronomik UHC-E both show it. I believe my Lumicon Deep Sky shows this also but to a much lesser degree since it passes such a broad set of wavelengths.
-Bill

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Re: filters, filters and filters.

#15

Post by j.gardavsky »


Just to add some comments based on the traceable documentations

Lumicon Narrowband filters
The designer's intention has been the OIII/H-Beta passband with suppressed light leakage on other wavelengths.
The unintended reality has been a high leakage on the short and long wavelengths,

https://www.astroamateur.de/filter/is_t ... n_uhc.html
Herewith you get some blue stars, and the K spectral class stars will be looking pale red.

The short and the long wavelengths leakage is due to a missing interference cavity to suppress the leakage.
A similar "red leakage" problem is also known on the Olympus interference filters for the fluorescence, documented in my filters colection.

Astronomik UHC filters
The designers intention has been the OIII/H-Beta passband, the red H-Alpha long pass towards the NIR, and suppressed light leakage on the short wavelengths,

https://www.astroamateur.de/filter/2005 ... 01519.html
There is still some visible short wavelengths leakage, but less than on the Lumicon.
The K spectral class stars will be looking bright red, and so the Miras and the Carbon stars.

The measurements have been published and discussed in Interstellarum (Germany) in 2007.
UV-VIS-Spectrophotometer Varian Cary 400 , spectral range 175nm up to 900nm, high resolution scan step 0.1nm


Hoping ths helps,
JG
6" F/5 Sky-Watcher achro, 2" BBHS Star Diagonal, 2" zenith prism, 1.25" Takahashi prism
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Eyepieces: Docter UWA; Leica B WW and WW Asph. Zoom; Leica HC Plan S and L, monocentric; Pentax SMC XW, O-, XO; Tak MC O, Carl Zeiss B WW, and Pl, E-Pl, S-Pl, W-Pl;
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Re: filters, filters and filters.

#16

Post by Bigzmey »


For the benefits of people just getting into filter business I want to point out that all filters which selectively block or pass a portion of visible spectrum will alter the observed colors. There is no way around. This does not mean that they are not effective.

If I have a choice of seeing nebula with red stars, or seeing normal stars without detecting the nebula, I would pick red stars with nebula any time. :)

Still, my experience with narrowband filters from Lumicon, Astronomik and Orion is that they color stars in greenish tint. The only filter I had with red tint was DGM NPB. I am not questioning Bill's observations. But to me it indicates that how much red you will see depends on many factors (filter sampling, optical train, operator eyes, targets, exit pupil, etc.)
Scopes: Stellarvue: SV102ED; Celestron: 9.25" EdgeHD, 8" SCT, 150ST, Onyx 80ED; iOptron: Hankmeister 6" Mak; SW: 7" Mak; Meade: 80ST.
Mounts: SW: SkyTee2, AzGTi; iOptron: AZMP; ES: Twilight I; Bresser: EXOS2; UA: MicroStar.
Binos: APM: 100-90 APO; Canon: IS 15x50; Orion: Binoviewer, LG II 15x70, WV 10x50, Nikon: AE 16x50, 10x50, 8x40.
EPs: Pentax: XWs & XFs; TeleVue: Delites, Panoptic & Plossls; ES: 68, 62; Vixen: SLVs; Baader: BCOs, Aspherics, Mark IV.
Diagonals: Baader: BBHS mirror, Zeiss Spec T2 prism, Clicklock dielectric; TeleVue: Evebrite dielectric; AltairAstro: 2" prism.
Filters: Lumicon: DeepSky, UHC, OIII, H-beta; Baader: Moon & SkyGlow, Contrast Booster, UHC-S, 6-color set; Astronomik: UHC.

Observing: DSOs: 3106 (Completed: Messier, Herschel 1, 2, 3. In progress: H2,500: 2180, S110: 77). Doubles: 2382, Comets: 34, Asteroids: 255
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Re: filters, filters and filters.

#17

Post by WilliamPaolini »


Bigzmey wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 5:31 pm For the benefits of people just getting into filter business I want to point out that all filters which selectively block or pass a portion of visible spectrum will alter the observed colors. There is no way around. This does not mean that they are not effective.

If I have a choice of seeing nebula with red stars, or seeing normal stars without detecting the nebula, I would pick red stars with nebula any time. :)

Still, my experience with narrowband filters from Lumicon, Astronomik and Orion is that they color stars in greenish tint. The only filter I had with red tint was DGM NPB. I am not questioning Bill's observations. But to me it indicates that how much red you will see depends on many factors (filter sampling, optical train, operator eyes, targets, exit pupil, etc.)
All good points, and I agree. But for those folks who have never used filters, it is also a warning that in order to see the nebula more effectively or with more details, it also means that stuff other than the nebula, like stars, will not show well, correctly, and sometimes not at all. So you do pay in one area for the benefit in another area. As with all things there is no free lunch. Now for me who grew up without filters and have a vast amount of experience observing various celestial objects naturally, I felt that for the most part the losses when using filters are not really worth the gains. Yes I still use filters on select DSO to bring out some more detail or give me a different perspective, but I consider that ancillary to the observation of the object and do most of my observation unfiltered because the context of the stars in the field are important for me. Indeed, for the most part when I use the filter to bring out something unseen in the nebula, when I switch back to no filter in the vast majority of cases I discover the feature was there unfiltered, but just not easily seen. So the filter helped me find and see the feature unfiltered.

So for filter newbies realize that when using these filters, especially the more aggressive ones, know that you are in effect getting a false or unnatural view of the object. So sort of like when NASA uses false coloration to accentuate various features of a nebula. You get a lot of additional information doing this, but the view is not the natural. So for those that are after some critical examination of a nebula and in search of specific details the filters can be a godsend. But for those who are interested in getting the best natural view possible of the nebula, the use of filters is not at all like going to a good transparent dark site. As always, choose your poison.
-Bill

U.S.A.F. Veteran - Visual Amateur Astronomer since 1966 - Fully Retired since 2019
8" f/5 Newt - Lunt 152 f/7.9 - TSA 102 f/8 - Vixen 81S f/7.7 - P.S.T. - Pentax 65ED II - Nikon 12x50 AE
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Re: filters, filters and filters.

#18

Post by Bigzmey »


All valid points, Bill. My experience is that the better, darker sky is, the less gain you get with filters.

Except for very bright ones like Orion Nebula, most of the emission nebulae are invisible from my backyard. So, the only chance to see Rosette or Vails is to use a filter.

My desert location is a whole different story, and for many nebulae I do prefer unfiltered views.
Scopes: Stellarvue: SV102ED; Celestron: 9.25" EdgeHD, 8" SCT, 150ST, Onyx 80ED; iOptron: Hankmeister 6" Mak; SW: 7" Mak; Meade: 80ST.
Mounts: SW: SkyTee2, AzGTi; iOptron: AZMP; ES: Twilight I; Bresser: EXOS2; UA: MicroStar.
Binos: APM: 100-90 APO; Canon: IS 15x50; Orion: Binoviewer, LG II 15x70, WV 10x50, Nikon: AE 16x50, 10x50, 8x40.
EPs: Pentax: XWs & XFs; TeleVue: Delites, Panoptic & Plossls; ES: 68, 62; Vixen: SLVs; Baader: BCOs, Aspherics, Mark IV.
Diagonals: Baader: BBHS mirror, Zeiss Spec T2 prism, Clicklock dielectric; TeleVue: Evebrite dielectric; AltairAstro: 2" prism.
Filters: Lumicon: DeepSky, UHC, OIII, H-beta; Baader: Moon & SkyGlow, Contrast Booster, UHC-S, 6-color set; Astronomik: UHC.

Observing: DSOs: 3106 (Completed: Messier, Herschel 1, 2, 3. In progress: H2,500: 2180, S110: 77). Doubles: 2382, Comets: 34, Asteroids: 255
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Re: filters, filters and filters.

#19

Post by Bigzmey »


WilliamPaolini wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 6:50 pm So for filter newbies realize that when using these filters, especially the more aggressive ones, know that you are in effect getting a false or unnatural view of the object. So sort of like when NASA uses false coloration to accentuate various features of a nebula. You get a lot of additional information doing this, but the view is not the natural.
Except on this point I disagree. I would not call the view with filters false or unnatural. Monochrome is better word. When you look at a black and white photo, you don't call it false color.

Also, strictly speaking only unaided views with naked eyes are natural. When you start using optics you already manipulating the view.

When you look at the same field with two scopes of different aperture you would see less faint stars with smaller scope compared to larger aperture. Is the smaller scope blocking fainter stars from view which results in unnatural view? ;)
Scopes: Stellarvue: SV102ED; Celestron: 9.25" EdgeHD, 8" SCT, 150ST, Onyx 80ED; iOptron: Hankmeister 6" Mak; SW: 7" Mak; Meade: 80ST.
Mounts: SW: SkyTee2, AzGTi; iOptron: AZMP; ES: Twilight I; Bresser: EXOS2; UA: MicroStar.
Binos: APM: 100-90 APO; Canon: IS 15x50; Orion: Binoviewer, LG II 15x70, WV 10x50, Nikon: AE 16x50, 10x50, 8x40.
EPs: Pentax: XWs & XFs; TeleVue: Delites, Panoptic & Plossls; ES: 68, 62; Vixen: SLVs; Baader: BCOs, Aspherics, Mark IV.
Diagonals: Baader: BBHS mirror, Zeiss Spec T2 prism, Clicklock dielectric; TeleVue: Evebrite dielectric; AltairAstro: 2" prism.
Filters: Lumicon: DeepSky, UHC, OIII, H-beta; Baader: Moon & SkyGlow, Contrast Booster, UHC-S, 6-color set; Astronomik: UHC.

Observing: DSOs: 3106 (Completed: Messier, Herschel 1, 2, 3. In progress: H2,500: 2180, S110: 77). Doubles: 2382, Comets: 34, Asteroids: 255
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Re: filters, filters and filters.

#20

Post by WilliamPaolini »


Well, for me the view is mostly never monochrome if there is a star anyplace in the FOV. Can always pick up subtle hues and colors on star points. So with the filters, the star colors are still there, only altered significantly (and unnaturally). So never monochrome to me unless there is just a dim nebula in the FOV with no stars. Btw, a monochrome view would not be unnatural if that is the way the eye would render it without added filtration. If the added filtration results in what would be perceived as color, monochrome, then the view is not natural.

I was not using the term natural view in a strict sense. So meant that I am realizing all aspects of what my eye can normally see and not changing colors or altering spectra available to see. So the view of the object remains natural whether in its unaided state or magnified state. Could not think of a single word to convey all that so settled on natural and figured what I meant would be figured out without any legalism.

When I look at a particular FOV with a larger or smaller aperture scope, neither view is unnatural if the view is unfiltered. Both scopes are substantially passing the entire visible spectrum to me, with minor enough aberrations/distortions, so that my eyes can register and my mind perceive the view as it normally/naturally does when all the available spectra and intensity is presented to it. The view is then "natural" to the eye. Not so when using filtration devices like LPF, UHC, O-III, etc. And of course if the optical system is presenting significant aberrations or distortions, then the view of course would not be natural either but modified -- I consider wide field eyepieces that have moderate to strong rectillinear distortion to show to an extent unnatural views as they distort features (easy to see with lunar observing as straight features are bent and even in star fields as relative positions of star points are altered).

So at this point hope everyone knows what I mean by a "natural" view. If not I will refer them to this post :D
-Bill

U.S.A.F. Veteran - Visual Amateur Astronomer since 1966 - Fully Retired since 2019
8" f/5 Newt - Lunt 152 f/7.9 - TSA 102 f/8 - Vixen 81S f/7.7 - P.S.T. - Pentax 65ED II - Nikon 12x50 AE
Pentax XWs - Baader Morpheus - Takahashi LEs - Edmund RKEs - BST Starguiders - 6ZAO-II/5XO/4Abbe
PM and Email communications always welcomed
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