Good LP filters for visual?

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turboscrew
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Good LP filters for visual?

#1

Post by turboscrew »


Last night I finally got to try out my Optolong UHC with M42, and it helped. The effect could have been a bit stronger, though. But as a side effect, I saw all brighter stars as two side by side, one green (cyan?) and one red. Somewhere in the net it was mentioned, that it's the effect of how the filter is constructed (interference).

Do other LP filters have the same problem? And how does L-eNhance work for visual? Any experience?
- Juha

Senior Embedded SW Designer
Telescope: OrionOptics XV12, Mount: CEM120, Tri-pier 360 and alternative dobson mount.
Grab 'n go: Omegon AC 102/660 on AZ-3 mount
Eyepieces: 26 mm Omegon SWAN 70°, 15 mm TV Plössl, 12.5 mm Baader Morpheus, 10 mm TV Delos, 6 mm Baader Classic Ortho, 5 mm TV DeLite, 4 mm and 3 mm TV Radians
Cameras: ZWO ASI 294MM Pro, Omegon veLOX 178C
OAG: TS-Optics TSOAG09, ZWO EFW 7 x 36 mm, ZWO filter sets: LRGB and Ha/OIII/SII
Explore Scientific HR 2" coma corrector, Meade x3 1.25" Barlow, TV PowerMate 4x 2"
Some filters (#80A, ND-96, ND-09, Astronomik UHC)
Laptop: Acer Enduro Urban N3 semi-rugged, Windows 11
LAT 61° 28' 10.9" N, Bortle 5

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Re: Good LP filters for visual?

#2

Post by notFritzArgelander »


My most used filter is the Baader H-beta. It gives single stars and does a superb job on emission nebulae. For planetary nebulae I prefer the O III. I have owned UHC filters and they're all gone. ;)
Scopes: Refs: Orion ST80, SV 80EDA f7, TS 102ED f11 Newts: AWB 130mm, f5, Z12 f5; Cats: VMC110L, Intes MK66,VMC200L f9.75 EPs: KK Fujiyama Orthoscopics, 2x Vixen NPLs (40-6mm) and BCOs, Baader Mark IV zooms, TV Panoptics, Delos, Plossl 32-8mm. Mixed brand Masuyama/Astroplans Binoculars: Nikon Aculon 10x50, Celestron 15x70, Baader Maxbright. Mounts: Star Seeker IV, Vixen Porta II, Celestron CG5
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Re: Good LP filters for visual?

#3

Post by Don Pensack »


Nebulae emit light at discrete wavelengths. The most visible ones to us are H-ß at 486.1nm, and O-III at 495.9nm and 500.7nm.
A Narrowband filter passes all 3 wavelengths, whereas a H-ß filter passes only one line. A visual O-III filter passes only both O-III lines, while a photographic O-III usually passes only the 500.7nm line.
How these filters work is that they pass the light of the nebula emission, but reject all other wavelengths, making the background sky much darker, and thereby enhancing contrast.

Contrast enhancement is largely about bandwidth. The narrower the filter, the higher the level of contrast. An Optolong UHC has around a 47-50nm bandwidth, way too broad to enhance the nebula by much.
In contrast, better narrowband filters (sometimes called UHC filters) have bandwidths from 22-26nm and yield a much larger contrast enhancement. Look for brands like Astronomik, Lumicon, TeleVue, Chroma, and DGM.

Some nebulae are hyper-excited by a nearby hot star and emit a lot more light in the O-III lines. Most planetary nebulae, Wolf-Rayet excitation nebulae, and supernova remnants fall into this category.
An O-III filter yields a higher level of contrast for these objects by trimming the H-ß line away and reducing bandwidth to 11-14nm (the bandwidth for photographic O-III filters gets as narrow as 3nm).
Look for brands like Astronomik, TeleVue, Lumicon, and Chroma.

Recently, some dual-band photographic filters have been made that pass the H-α wavelength in the deep red (where cameras are sensitive, but human vision essentially blind) and the O-III lines in the blue green.
The Optolong L-Enhance and L-Extreme are examples of these photographic filters.

An H-ß filter in the blue (where our eye is most sensitive at night) can improve the visibility of faint nebulae that emit almost entirely hydrogen light. Examples of such nebulae include most Sharpless nebulae, NGC1499 (California Nebula), IC434 (behind the Horsehead dark nebula)
and several others. An H-ß filter will have an even narrower bandwidth of 9-12nm. Brands to look for: Astronomik, TeleVue, Orion. It should be noted that this type of filter should be obtained AFTER you have a good narrowband and O-III filter.

It is a mistake to call these nebula-enhancing filters "light pollution reduction" filters, since they work exclusively on emission nebulae (not reflection, or dark nebulae).
In the modern world, with LED. LCD, halogen, arc, incandescent, fluorescent, mercury vapor, sodium vapor, inert gas, and other kinds of lighting covering almost the entire visible spectrum, there really is no such thing as a light pollution reduction filter
that works on stars, galaxies, reflection nebulae, dark nebulae, etc. The only filter that does is gasoline--you put it in your car and drive the scope to darker skies.

Once at a dark site, one more type of filter becomes usable. If the nebula you are looking at is already quite visible (like M42/43 at a dark site), a mild enhancement of contrast that doesn't wipe out all the stars in the field can be useful.
These are called broadband filters. They pass a broad swath in the blue-green (50-75nm) AND a broad swath in the red (75-100+nm). They can be used both visually and photographically, but only at an already quite dark site.

As for a filter passing both red and blue-green that has the star image colors side by side rather than superimposed, this indicates the two sides of the filter are not parallel (if seen in the center of the field) or it is normally only seen at the very outer edge of the filter
due to differential refraction of the wavelengths.

I am currently doing an update to this, but this information could help:
https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/6554 ... ?p=9245641
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Currently using a 12.5" dob and a 4" apo refractor
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Re: Good LP filters for visual?

#4

Post by notFritzArgelander »


PS I've been enjoying some surprisingly good success with the Altair Astro Tri and Quad Band Filters. I'm contending with a neighbor's floodlights.

Don is right that the doubled star images (if in the center of the field) is a bug, not a feature.
Scopes: Refs: Orion ST80, SV 80EDA f7, TS 102ED f11 Newts: AWB 130mm, f5, Z12 f5; Cats: VMC110L, Intes MK66,VMC200L f9.75 EPs: KK Fujiyama Orthoscopics, 2x Vixen NPLs (40-6mm) and BCOs, Baader Mark IV zooms, TV Panoptics, Delos, Plossl 32-8mm. Mixed brand Masuyama/Astroplans Binoculars: Nikon Aculon 10x50, Celestron 15x70, Baader Maxbright. Mounts: Star Seeker IV, Vixen Porta II, Celestron CG5
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Re: Good LP filters for visual?

#5

Post by turboscrew »


Don Pensack wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 5:33 pm Nebulae emit light at discrete wavelengths. The most visible ones to us are H-ß at 486.1nm, and O-III at 495.9nm and 500.7nm.
A Narrowband filter passes all 3 wavelengths, whereas a H-ß filter passes only one line. A visual O-III filter passes only both O-III lines, while a photographic O-III usually passes only the 500.7nm line.
How these filters work is that they pass the light of the nebula emission, but reject all other wavelengths, making the background sky much darker, and thereby enhancing contrast.

Contrast enhancement is largely about bandwidth. The narrower the filter, the higher the level of contrast. An Optolong UHC has around a 47-50nm bandwidth, way too broad to enhance the nebula by much.
In contrast, better narrowband filters (sometimes called UHC filters) have bandwidths from 22-26nm and yield a much larger contrast enhancement. Look for brands like Astronomik, Lumicon, TeleVue, Chroma, and DGM.

Some nebulae are hyper-excited by a nearby hot star and emit a lot more light in the O-III lines. Most planetary nebulae, Wolf-Rayet excitation nebulae, and supernova remnants fall into this category.
An O-III filter yields a higher level of contrast for these objects by trimming the H-ß line away and reducing bandwidth to 11-14nm (the bandwidth for photographic O-III filters gets as narrow as 3nm).
Look for brands like Astronomik, TeleVue, Lumicon, and Chroma.

Recently, some dual-band photographic filters have been made that pass the H-α wavelength in the deep red (where cameras are sensitive, but human vision essentially blind) and the O-III lines in the blue green.
The Optolong L-Enhance and L-Extreme are examples of these photographic filters.

An H-ß filter in the blue (where our eye is most sensitive at night) can improve the visibility of faint nebulae that emit almost entirely hydrogen light. Examples of such nebulae include most Sharpless nebulae, NGC1499 (California Nebula), IC434 (behind the Horsehead dark nebula)
and several others. An H-ß filter will have an even narrower bandwidth of 9-12nm. Brands to look for: Astronomik, TeleVue, Orion. It should be noted that this type of filter should be obtained AFTER you have a good narrowband and O-III filter.

It is a mistake to call these nebula-enhancing filters "light pollution reduction" filters, since they work exclusively on emission nebulae (not reflection, or dark nebulae).
In the modern world, with LED. LCD, halogen, arc, incandescent, fluorescent, mercury vapor, sodium vapor, inert gas, and other kinds of lighting covering almost the entire visible spectrum, there really is no such thing as a light pollution reduction filter
that works on stars, galaxies, reflection nebulae, dark nebulae, etc. The only filter that does is gasoline--you put it in your car and drive the scope to darker skies.

Once at a dark site, one more type of filter becomes usable. If the nebula you are looking at is already quite visible (like M42/43 at a dark site), a mild enhancement of contrast that doesn't wipe out all the stars in the field can be useful.
These are called broadband filters. They pass a broad swath in the blue-green (50-75nm) AND a broad swath in the red (75-100+nm). They can be used both visually and photographically, but only at an already quite dark site.

As for a filter passing both red and blue-green that has the star image colors side by side rather than superimposed, this indicates the two sides of the filter are not parallel (if seen in the center of the field) or it is normally only seen at the very outer edge of the filter
due to differential refraction of the wavelengths.

I am currently doing an update to this, but this information could help:
https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/6554 ... ?p=9245641
The split colour stars were seen at least about 1/3 radius length from the center. That image I have a good recollection.
And they were strong bright "double stars". Not just vague halos around a star. No white star visible at all.
I guess my filter is crap. Well, it was quite cheap... Helped quite notably still.

So, especially, if I want to see something else, besides emission nebulae (like reflection nebulae), the L-eNhance is not a good idea - unless I get a separate filter for other kinds of targets - if even then?
And I'd better start looking at the better narrow band filters (22-26nm)?

With my current filter, it looked like it let a bit too much background light through ("milky" sky).
Got to check that link.
[edit]
The link was good, thanks!
I guess I still have to revisit it to digest all that, though.
Last edited by turboscrew on Sun Feb 27, 2022 10:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- Juha

Senior Embedded SW Designer
Telescope: OrionOptics XV12, Mount: CEM120, Tri-pier 360 and alternative dobson mount.
Grab 'n go: Omegon AC 102/660 on AZ-3 mount
Eyepieces: 26 mm Omegon SWAN 70°, 15 mm TV Plössl, 12.5 mm Baader Morpheus, 10 mm TV Delos, 6 mm Baader Classic Ortho, 5 mm TV DeLite, 4 mm and 3 mm TV Radians
Cameras: ZWO ASI 294MM Pro, Omegon veLOX 178C
OAG: TS-Optics TSOAG09, ZWO EFW 7 x 36 mm, ZWO filter sets: LRGB and Ha/OIII/SII
Explore Scientific HR 2" coma corrector, Meade x3 1.25" Barlow, TV PowerMate 4x 2"
Some filters (#80A, ND-96, ND-09, Astronomik UHC)
Laptop: Acer Enduro Urban N3 semi-rugged, Windows 11
LAT 61° 28' 10.9" N, Bortle 5

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Re: Good LP filters for visual?

#6

Post by turboscrew »


notFritzArgelander wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 6:13 pm PS I've been enjoying some surprisingly good success with the Altair Astro Tri and Quad Band Filters. I'm contending with a neighbor's floodlights.

Don is right that the doubled star images (if in the center of the field) is a bug, not a feature.
I wonder how those might do. I think the "milkiness" is lights from a nearby (2 - 3 km) suburb reflected from some sort of thin haze or mist. At least it looks like in that direction there is some sort of cloudiness most of the nights.
- Juha

Senior Embedded SW Designer
Telescope: OrionOptics XV12, Mount: CEM120, Tri-pier 360 and alternative dobson mount.
Grab 'n go: Omegon AC 102/660 on AZ-3 mount
Eyepieces: 26 mm Omegon SWAN 70°, 15 mm TV Plössl, 12.5 mm Baader Morpheus, 10 mm TV Delos, 6 mm Baader Classic Ortho, 5 mm TV DeLite, 4 mm and 3 mm TV Radians
Cameras: ZWO ASI 294MM Pro, Omegon veLOX 178C
OAG: TS-Optics TSOAG09, ZWO EFW 7 x 36 mm, ZWO filter sets: LRGB and Ha/OIII/SII
Explore Scientific HR 2" coma corrector, Meade x3 1.25" Barlow, TV PowerMate 4x 2"
Some filters (#80A, ND-96, ND-09, Astronomik UHC)
Laptop: Acer Enduro Urban N3 semi-rugged, Windows 11
LAT 61° 28' 10.9" N, Bortle 5

I don't suffer from insanity. I'm enjoying every minute of it.

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Re: Good LP filters for visual?

#7

Post by notFritzArgelander »


turboscrew wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 10:03 pm
notFritzArgelander wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 6:13 pm PS I've been enjoying some surprisingly good success with the Altair Astro Tri and Quad Band Filters. I'm contending with a neighbor's floodlights.

Don is right that the doubled star images (if in the center of the field) is a bug, not a feature.
I wonder how those might do. I think the "milkiness" is lights from a nearby (2 - 3 km) suburb reflected from some sort of thin haze or mist. At least it looks like in that direction there is some sort of cloudiness most of the nights.
Same problem as here except that with the floodlights from my neighbor it's even more obnoxious. The Altair filters make the difference between detection with details and non detection in my experience.
Scopes: Refs: Orion ST80, SV 80EDA f7, TS 102ED f11 Newts: AWB 130mm, f5, Z12 f5; Cats: VMC110L, Intes MK66,VMC200L f9.75 EPs: KK Fujiyama Orthoscopics, 2x Vixen NPLs (40-6mm) and BCOs, Baader Mark IV zooms, TV Panoptics, Delos, Plossl 32-8mm. Mixed brand Masuyama/Astroplans Binoculars: Nikon Aculon 10x50, Celestron 15x70, Baader Maxbright. Mounts: Star Seeker IV, Vixen Porta II, Celestron CG5
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Re: Good LP filters for visual?

#8

Post by Bigzmey »


From my personal observing experience +1 for Astronomik and Lumicon. I would start with UHC and add OIII and H-beta if necessary.

Baader makes good quality filters to, but their UHC-S is a broadband not narrowband filter.

And I agree with others that what you see is not normal for a good filter. It might be delaminated.
Scopes: Stellarvue: SV102ED; Celestron: 9.25" EdgeHD, 8" SCT, 150ST, Onyx 80ED; iOptron: Hankmeister 6" Mak; SW: 7" Mak; Meade: 80ST.
Mounts: SW: SkyTee2, AzGTi; iOptron: AZMP; ES: Twilight I; Bresser: EXOS2; UA: MicroStar.
Binos: APM: 100-90 APO; Canon: IS 15x50; Orion: Binoviewer, LG II 15x70, WV 10x50, Nikon: AE 16x50, 10x50, 8x40.
EPs: Pentax: XWs & XFs; TeleVue: Delites, Panoptic & Plossls; ES: 68, 62; Vixen: SLVs; Baader: BCOs, Aspherics, Mark IV.
Diagonals: Baader: BBHS mirror, Zeiss Spec T2 prism, Clicklock dielectric; TeleVue: Evebrite dielectric; AltairAstro: 2" prism.
Filters: Lumicon: DeepSky, UHC, OIII, H-beta; Baader: Moon & SkyGlow, Contrast Booster, UHC-S, 6-color set; Astronomik: UHC.

Observing: DSOs: 3106 (Completed: Messier, Herschel 1, 2, 3. In progress: H2,500: 2180, S110: 77). Doubles: 2382, Comets: 34, Asteroids: 255
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Re: Good LP filters for visual?

#9

Post by turboscrew »


Checked from 3 EU area stores, for Astronomik, Lumicon, Chroma, DMG and Tele Vue 1.25" UHCs.
Only this is available at the moment.
https://www.astroshop.eu/uhc-filters/as ... 5-/p,16765

I think Altair Astros are harder to find in EU.
- Juha

Senior Embedded SW Designer
Telescope: OrionOptics XV12, Mount: CEM120, Tri-pier 360 and alternative dobson mount.
Grab 'n go: Omegon AC 102/660 on AZ-3 mount
Eyepieces: 26 mm Omegon SWAN 70°, 15 mm TV Plössl, 12.5 mm Baader Morpheus, 10 mm TV Delos, 6 mm Baader Classic Ortho, 5 mm TV DeLite, 4 mm and 3 mm TV Radians
Cameras: ZWO ASI 294MM Pro, Omegon veLOX 178C
OAG: TS-Optics TSOAG09, ZWO EFW 7 x 36 mm, ZWO filter sets: LRGB and Ha/OIII/SII
Explore Scientific HR 2" coma corrector, Meade x3 1.25" Barlow, TV PowerMate 4x 2"
Some filters (#80A, ND-96, ND-09, Astronomik UHC)
Laptop: Acer Enduro Urban N3 semi-rugged, Windows 11
LAT 61° 28' 10.9" N, Bortle 5

I don't suffer from insanity. I'm enjoying every minute of it.

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Re: Good LP filters for visual?

#10

Post by The Wave Catcher »


Juhu,

I notice the same separation of colors except for me it is red and blue on sharp stars using my Astronomik UHC filter at high powers. I had always assumed it was an effect of chromatic aberration. Essentially, the red wavelength is not focusing to the same point as the blue wavelength for a given star. I may be wrong about the CA causing it, but the effect is much more noticeable on my fast, f/4.5 refractor than on my AT102ED.
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Re: Good LP filters for visual?

#11

Post by turboscrew »


The Wave Catcher wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 11:40 pm Juhu,

I notice the same separation of colors except for me it is red and blue on sharp stars using my Astronomik UHC filter at high powers. I had always assumed it was an effect of chromatic aberration. Essentially, the red wavelength is not focusing to the same point as the blue wavelength for a given star. I may be wrong about the CA causing it, but the effect is much more noticeable on my fast, f/4.5 refractor than on my AT102ED.
The guys that know far better than me, mentioned, that such "aberration" can happen at the very edge of the view, In the middle, it hints that the coatings may be mis-aligned, maybe even detaching. And, I've been let to know, the effect is worse with fast telescopes (both for the misaligned and the more normal at the very edges).
- Juha

Senior Embedded SW Designer
Telescope: OrionOptics XV12, Mount: CEM120, Tri-pier 360 and alternative dobson mount.
Grab 'n go: Omegon AC 102/660 on AZ-3 mount
Eyepieces: 26 mm Omegon SWAN 70°, 15 mm TV Plössl, 12.5 mm Baader Morpheus, 10 mm TV Delos, 6 mm Baader Classic Ortho, 5 mm TV DeLite, 4 mm and 3 mm TV Radians
Cameras: ZWO ASI 294MM Pro, Omegon veLOX 178C
OAG: TS-Optics TSOAG09, ZWO EFW 7 x 36 mm, ZWO filter sets: LRGB and Ha/OIII/SII
Explore Scientific HR 2" coma corrector, Meade x3 1.25" Barlow, TV PowerMate 4x 2"
Some filters (#80A, ND-96, ND-09, Astronomik UHC)
Laptop: Acer Enduro Urban N3 semi-rugged, Windows 11
LAT 61° 28' 10.9" N, Bortle 5

I don't suffer from insanity. I'm enjoying every minute of it.

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Re: Good LP filters for visual?

#12

Post by Bigzmey »


turboscrew wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 11:12 pm Checked from 3 EU area stores, for Astronomik, Lumicon, Chroma, DMG and Tele Vue 1.25" UHCs.
Only this is available at the moment.
https://www.astroshop.eu/uhc-filters/as ... 5-/p,16765

I think Altair Astros are harder to find in EU.
I have Astronomik UHC and it is a good quality filter. Highly recommend.
Scopes: Stellarvue: SV102ED; Celestron: 9.25" EdgeHD, 8" SCT, 150ST, Onyx 80ED; iOptron: Hankmeister 6" Mak; SW: 7" Mak; Meade: 80ST.
Mounts: SW: SkyTee2, AzGTi; iOptron: AZMP; ES: Twilight I; Bresser: EXOS2; UA: MicroStar.
Binos: APM: 100-90 APO; Canon: IS 15x50; Orion: Binoviewer, LG II 15x70, WV 10x50, Nikon: AE 16x50, 10x50, 8x40.
EPs: Pentax: XWs & XFs; TeleVue: Delites, Panoptic & Plossls; ES: 68, 62; Vixen: SLVs; Baader: BCOs, Aspherics, Mark IV.
Diagonals: Baader: BBHS mirror, Zeiss Spec T2 prism, Clicklock dielectric; TeleVue: Evebrite dielectric; AltairAstro: 2" prism.
Filters: Lumicon: DeepSky, UHC, OIII, H-beta; Baader: Moon & SkyGlow, Contrast Booster, UHC-S, 6-color set; Astronomik: UHC.

Observing: DSOs: 3106 (Completed: Messier, Herschel 1, 2, 3. In progress: H2,500: 2180, S110: 77). Doubles: 2382, Comets: 34, Asteroids: 255
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Re: Good LP filters for visual?

#13

Post by turboscrew »


Bigzmey wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2022 5:52 pm
turboscrew wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 11:12 pm Checked from 3 EU area stores, for Astronomik, Lumicon, Chroma, DMG and Tele Vue 1.25" UHCs.
Only this is available at the moment.
https://www.astroshop.eu/uhc-filters/as ... 5-/p,16765

I think Altair Astros are harder to find in EU.
I have Astronomik UHC and it is a good quality filter. Highly recommend.
Trigger pulled.
- Juha

Senior Embedded SW Designer
Telescope: OrionOptics XV12, Mount: CEM120, Tri-pier 360 and alternative dobson mount.
Grab 'n go: Omegon AC 102/660 on AZ-3 mount
Eyepieces: 26 mm Omegon SWAN 70°, 15 mm TV Plössl, 12.5 mm Baader Morpheus, 10 mm TV Delos, 6 mm Baader Classic Ortho, 5 mm TV DeLite, 4 mm and 3 mm TV Radians
Cameras: ZWO ASI 294MM Pro, Omegon veLOX 178C
OAG: TS-Optics TSOAG09, ZWO EFW 7 x 36 mm, ZWO filter sets: LRGB and Ha/OIII/SII
Explore Scientific HR 2" coma corrector, Meade x3 1.25" Barlow, TV PowerMate 4x 2"
Some filters (#80A, ND-96, ND-09, Astronomik UHC)
Laptop: Acer Enduro Urban N3 semi-rugged, Windows 11
LAT 61° 28' 10.9" N, Bortle 5

I don't suffer from insanity. I'm enjoying every minute of it.

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