Well, astrophotography the modern way with computers and software is somewhat more difficult than expected.

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cumbrianwolf
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Well, astrophotography the modern way with computers and software is somewhat more difficult than expected.

#1

Post by cumbrianwolf »


Well I have not posted for a little while after seeking some advice from you all on here and of course building up my kit with said advice, oh and awaiting the weather to clear!
Needless to say I have had two days out and each occasion I am improving and streamlining the system and ironing out the glitches, via information gleaned from videos and the internet. I am now working remotely, which is so much more pleasurable than freezing my extremities off. So N.I.N.A was my choice of software, and it takes some time to get it up and running to a level that you could call automated, ASTAP kept having issues with such things as back focus and the coma corrector / reducer causing an issue with the apparent focal length that I inputted, this still needs to be fine-tuned. I also had pointing issues, as with NINA was correct on one part of the screen but then kept reverting to a random set of coordinates on another section of which I think has been streamlined by me adding Stellarium to the equation, so I can point and go basically rather than use what NINA has from standard. Upgraded those springy horrid bolts that were used on my altitude adjustments to solid stainless hex bolt and wow what a solid mount it is now!

At one point, I was going to dump the software and just use PHD2 and an intervelometer as I was getting nowhere fast and as for images, I do not have any yet as when I got the system to work I lost over four hours of the night. So those that think this side of the hobby is a quick option to gain great cosmos photos may be in for a shock, and I still have the image processing to learn on the next round. Needless to say, it is keeping me very busy, but I am getting closer to the goal in hand. :text-thankyouyellow:
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Re: Well, astrophotography the modern way with computers and software is somewhat more difficult than expected.

#2

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Great to hear that you turned the corner on automating your data acquisition and are observing remotely. I went through the same learninng curve though perhaps in an easier way by choosing Ekos. It is an integrated package that has everything you need so I don't have to work through problems getting various programs to work together. The only time I spend outside is for setting up, breaking down, taking flats and biases and polar alignment. The rest of the time I am remotely logged in to my Pi4b's desktop sitting on a rig right by the focuser. The rig makes it easy to set up and break down. I have a low vision webcam outside that lets me see what the scope does, which I find very reassuring. With all that it still takes a while to become familiar with the software. I'm really glad I chose Ekos though, a great choice.

That said, Nina with Stellarium looks great too, I've seen it remotely operated by Greg aka Astrobee. One ghing that makes remote operation easier is the use of an astro camera, for plate solving, on a USB3 port. This helps with polar alignment and goto alignment. I see your camera is a DSLR. Do you use your guide camera for plate solving? I did that for a while when I was still using my DSLR, it works great so long as you can align the FOV with that of the DSLR beforehand.

Anyway good to hear from you, keep us posted and good luck.
... Henk. :D Telescopes: GSO 12" Astrograph, "Comet Hunter" MN152, ES ED127CF, ES ED80, WO Redcat51, Z12, AT6RC, Celestron Skymaster 20x80, Mounts and tripod: Losmandy G11S with OnStep, AVX, Tiltall, Cameras: ASI2600MC, ASI2600MM, ASI120 mini, Fuji X-a1, Canon XSi, T6, ELPH 100HS, DIY: OnStep controller, Pi4b/power rig, Afocal adapter, Foldable Dob base, Az/Alt Dob setting circles, Accessories: ZWO 36 mm filter wheel, TV Paracorr 2, Baader MPCC Mk III, ES FF, SSAG, QHY OAG-M, EAF electronic focuser, Plossls, Barlows, Telrad, Laser collimators (Seben LK1, Z12, Howie Glatter), Cheshire, 2 Orion RACIs 8x50, Software: KStars-Ekos, DSS, PHD2, Nebulosity, Photo Gallery, Gimp, CHDK, Computers:Pi4b, 2x running KStars/Ekos, Toshiba Satellite 17", Website:Henk's astro images
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Re: Well, astrophotography the modern way with computers and software is somewhat more difficult than expected.

#3

Post by cumbrianwolf »


SkyHiker wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:15 pm Great to hear that you turned the corner on automating your data acquisition and are observing remotely. I went through the same learning curve, though perhaps in an easier way, by choosing Ekos. It is an integrated package that has everything you need, so I don't have to work through problems getting various programs to work together. The only time I spend outside is for setting up, breaking down, taking flats and biases and polar alignment. The rest of the time I am remotely logged in to my Pi4b's desktop sitting on a rig right by the focuser. The rig makes it easy to set up and break down. I have a low vision webcam outside that lets me see what the scope does, which I find very reassuring. With all that, it still takes a while to become familiar with the software. I'm really glad I chose Ekos though, a great choice.

That said, Nina with Stellarium looks great too, I've seen it remotely operated by Greg aka Astrobee. One ghing that makes remote operation easier is the use of an astro camera, for plate solving, on a USB3 port. This helps with polar alignment and goto alignment. I see your camera is a DSLR. Do you use your guide camera for plate solving? I did that for a while when I was still using my DSLR, it works great so long as you can align the FOV with that of the DSLR beforehand.

Anyway good to hear from you, keep us posted and good luck.
I have an SVBONY 305 PRO with USB 3.0 for the guiding, the DSLR is just the main imaging camera and yes I am using that for the plate solve option. Would it be beneficial to plate solve via the guide camera as I can align it no problem as that is what I tend to do, and it is on an 80 mm refractor with a wide-field view?
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Re: Well, astrophotography the modern way with computers and software is somewhat more difficult than expected.

#4

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cumbrianwolf wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:27 pm
SkyHiker wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:15 pm Great to hear that you turned the corner on automating your data acquisition and are observing remotely. I went through the same learning curve, though perhaps in an easier way, by choosing Ekos. It is an integrated package that has everything you need, so I don't have to work through problems getting various programs to work together. The only time I spend outside is for setting up, breaking down, taking flats and biases and polar alignment. The rest of the time I am remotely logged in to my Pi4b's desktop sitting on a rig right by the focuser. The rig makes it easy to set up and break down. I have a low vision webcam outside that lets me see what the scope does, which I find very reassuring. With all that, it still takes a while to become familiar with the software. I'm really glad I chose Ekos though, a great choice.

That said, Nina with Stellarium looks great too, I've seen it remotely operated by Greg aka Astrobee. One ghing that makes remote operation easier is the use of an astro camera, for plate solving, on a USB3 port. This helps with polar alignment and goto alignment. I see your camera is a DSLR. Do you use your guide camera for plate solving? I did that for a while when I was still using my DSLR, it works great so long as you can align the FOV with that of the DSLR beforehand.

Anyway good to hear from you, keep us posted and good luck.
I have an SVBONY 305 PRO with USB 3.0 for the guiding, the DSLR is just the main imaging camera and yes I am using that for the plate solve option. Would it be beneficial to plate solve via the guide camera as I can align it no problem as that is what I tend to do, and it is on an 80 mm refractor with a wide-field view?
I used the guide camera because my Fuji X-a1 cannot be operated remotely. If you can get your DSLR images reasonably fast over USB3 then you're fine and don't change it. A guide camera can get images across pretty quickly, my ASI2600s take about 3 seconds to download in full resolution. For plate solving I bin the exposures so it's faster. The downside of a guide camera is alignment, but should be just a one time effort.

When I started using plate solving at first I had a lot of trouble with the ASI2600 while the guide camera never failed. That was the SSAG at the time. It is a matter of binning, exposure time, and initial synchronization. I rarely have trouble nowadays.
... Henk. :D Telescopes: GSO 12" Astrograph, "Comet Hunter" MN152, ES ED127CF, ES ED80, WO Redcat51, Z12, AT6RC, Celestron Skymaster 20x80, Mounts and tripod: Losmandy G11S with OnStep, AVX, Tiltall, Cameras: ASI2600MC, ASI2600MM, ASI120 mini, Fuji X-a1, Canon XSi, T6, ELPH 100HS, DIY: OnStep controller, Pi4b/power rig, Afocal adapter, Foldable Dob base, Az/Alt Dob setting circles, Accessories: ZWO 36 mm filter wheel, TV Paracorr 2, Baader MPCC Mk III, ES FF, SSAG, QHY OAG-M, EAF electronic focuser, Plossls, Barlows, Telrad, Laser collimators (Seben LK1, Z12, Howie Glatter), Cheshire, 2 Orion RACIs 8x50, Software: KStars-Ekos, DSS, PHD2, Nebulosity, Photo Gallery, Gimp, CHDK, Computers:Pi4b, 2x running KStars/Ekos, Toshiba Satellite 17", Website:Henk's astro images
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Re: Well, astrophotography the modern way with computers and software is somewhat more difficult than expected.

#5

Post by cumbrianwolf »


I have full control of the DSLR camera via remote control and the guide camera is the one with USB3, the canon EOS 7D is just USB2. Using the guider cam would help, as I find the three star polar alignment saps the power from the DSLR imaging camera before I have taken my first imaging shot. I think I might try your approach after aligning it with the main telescope using an eyepiece, I could opt for placing the guiding camera in the eyepiece holder of the scope then polar align and begin from that point, do you think that would work?
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Re: Well, astrophotography the modern way with computers and software is somewhat more difficult than expected.

#6

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Personally I would use it on the guide sccope and align it so you don't have to swap gear each time. The alignment can be done in the daytime, gake an image with the DSLR of a remote object and align the autoguider to it. It's pretty quick.
... Henk. :D Telescopes: GSO 12" Astrograph, "Comet Hunter" MN152, ES ED127CF, ES ED80, WO Redcat51, Z12, AT6RC, Celestron Skymaster 20x80, Mounts and tripod: Losmandy G11S with OnStep, AVX, Tiltall, Cameras: ASI2600MC, ASI2600MM, ASI120 mini, Fuji X-a1, Canon XSi, T6, ELPH 100HS, DIY: OnStep controller, Pi4b/power rig, Afocal adapter, Foldable Dob base, Az/Alt Dob setting circles, Accessories: ZWO 36 mm filter wheel, TV Paracorr 2, Baader MPCC Mk III, ES FF, SSAG, QHY OAG-M, EAF electronic focuser, Plossls, Barlows, Telrad, Laser collimators (Seben LK1, Z12, Howie Glatter), Cheshire, 2 Orion RACIs 8x50, Software: KStars-Ekos, DSS, PHD2, Nebulosity, Photo Gallery, Gimp, CHDK, Computers:Pi4b, 2x running KStars/Ekos, Toshiba Satellite 17", Website:Henk's astro images
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Re: Well, astrophotography the modern way with computers and software is somewhat more difficult than expected.

#7

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Of course, and that is what I will do, missed the obvious point as I only need to switch the camera in the software! ;)
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Congratulations on getting into astrophotography. You have found a friendly and helpful site here. Many individuals ready and willing to help. Henk has helped many individuals already. Have fun and good luck. Look forward to watching your progress.

Steve
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Re: Well, astrophotography the modern way with computers and software is somewhat more difficult than expected.

#9

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cumbrianwolf wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:49 pm Of course, and that is what I will do, missed the obvious point as I only need to switch the camera in the software! ;)
Sure, I do this in Ekos by selecting the camera. It has a pulldown for pretty much anything that a camera is needed for, with a choice between the connected cameras. So I can switch on the fly easily. I presume Nina would let you do the same but I don't know.
... Henk. :D Telescopes: GSO 12" Astrograph, "Comet Hunter" MN152, ES ED127CF, ES ED80, WO Redcat51, Z12, AT6RC, Celestron Skymaster 20x80, Mounts and tripod: Losmandy G11S with OnStep, AVX, Tiltall, Cameras: ASI2600MC, ASI2600MM, ASI120 mini, Fuji X-a1, Canon XSi, T6, ELPH 100HS, DIY: OnStep controller, Pi4b/power rig, Afocal adapter, Foldable Dob base, Az/Alt Dob setting circles, Accessories: ZWO 36 mm filter wheel, TV Paracorr 2, Baader MPCC Mk III, ES FF, SSAG, QHY OAG-M, EAF electronic focuser, Plossls, Barlows, Telrad, Laser collimators (Seben LK1, Z12, Howie Glatter), Cheshire, 2 Orion RACIs 8x50, Software: KStars-Ekos, DSS, PHD2, Nebulosity, Photo Gallery, Gimp, CHDK, Computers:Pi4b, 2x running KStars/Ekos, Toshiba Satellite 17", Website:Henk's astro images
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Re: Well, astrophotography the modern way with computers and software is somewhat more difficult than expected.

#10

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STEVE333 wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 4:47 pm Congratulations on getting into astrophotography. You have found a friendly and helpful site here. Many individuals ready and willing to help. Henk has helped many individuals already. Have fun and good luck. Look forward to watching your progress.

Steve
Not new to astrophotography as such, last time it was a telescope, 35 mm film SLR and intervelometer in the 2000s, then I advanced to an all-in-one guider and DSLR of which I never gave it a true chance as hurt my back so lifting was out of the question. Now it is a whole new aspect with the technological improvements, and I am enjoying it, won't be too long until I post an image or two. :text-thankyouyellow:
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Re: Well, astrophotography the modern way with computers and software is somewhat more difficult than expected.

#11

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SkyHiker wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 5:14 pm
cumbrianwolf wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:49 pm Of course, and that is what I will do, missed the obvious point as I only need to switch the camera in the software! ;)
Sure, I do this in Ekos by selecting the camera. It has a pulldown for pretty much anything that a camera is needed for, with a choice between the connected cameras. So I can switch on the fly easily. I presume Nina would let you do the same but I don't know.
Yes, it allows me to select the camera that is needed, I just was not thinking outside the box on easier methods until you kindly pointed me in the right direction. :text-thankyoublue:
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#12

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I use the DSLR for plate solving for two reasons. First, for some shots the rotation angle of the DSLR is important for capturing the entire object (M31 comes to mind). Second, not perfectly aligning the guide scope and main scope gives me one less thing to check when setting up. The guide camera field and the main camera field overlap each other, that is "close enough" for me. Astrophotography Tool talks to the main camera and PHD2 communicates with the guide camera so there is nothing to switch during the session.

And welcome to the wonderful(?) world of digital astrophotography!

Bob
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Re: Well, astrophotography the modern way with computers and software is somewhat more difficult than expected.

#13

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bobharmony wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 6:26 pm I use the DSLR for plate solving for two reasons. First, for some shots, the rotation angle of the DSLR is important for capturing the entire object (M31 comes to mind). Second, not perfectly aligning the guide scope and main scope gives me one less thing to check when setting up. The guide camera field and the main camera field overlap each other, that is “close enough” for me. Astrophotography Tool talks to the main camera and PHD2 communicates with the guide camera, so there is nothing to switch during the session.

And welcome to the wonderful(?) world of digital astrophotography!

Bob
You have some good points, so a question if I may in that if I were to use the SVBONY temporarily in the eyepiece and selected for this task in the image capture software as the main camera for polar alignment via plate solving methods do you think that would help, or should I just do what I do currently which is leave the DSLR in place and buy more batteries, hence simplifying what could become more complex? I am just not that accurate at polar aligning to such a level and take far too long, mind you I have just upgraded the altitude bolts as those were acting like springs when they had 18 kg leaning on them, the new stainless steel bolts have strengthened the mount up considerably.
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Re: Well, astrophotography the modern way with computers and software is somewhat more difficult than expected.

#14

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cumbrianwolf wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 6:41 pm

You have some good points, so a question if I may in that if I were to use the SVBONY temporarily in the eyepiece and selected for this task in the image capture software as the main camera for polar alignment via plate solving methods do you think that would help, or should I just do what I do currently which is leave the DSLR in place and buy more batteries, hence simplifying what could become more complex? I am just not that accurate at polar aligning to such a level and take far too long, mind you I have just upgraded the altitude bolts as those were acting like springs when they had 18 kg leaning on them, the new stainless steel bolts have strengthened the mount up considerably.
I don't know what you are using for polar alignment or for guiding. I use PHD2 for both and the guide camera for both, so I have no need to switch anything in my setup. The purpose of polar alignment is to get the mounts RA axis aligned with the celestial pole, so it doesn't matter whether you use the main scope or the guide scope because they are both rotating on the same mount RA axis.

I set up in the same place for every session so I use a little trick to reduce the time needed for polar alignment after I got it done the first time. At that point I marked where the mount feet are positioned on my deck with a Sharpie. The next time I set up for a session I set the mount feet as close to those marks as possible before beginning polar alignment. I find that I am always within 10 arcminutes of the pole when I start, and there have been sessions where I don't have to make any adjustments at all. Polar alignment takes 2 minutes on a good night and is usually done in 5-10 minutes.

I use the DSLR for platesolving because it is the main scope that needs to be pointed precisely at the target. I also use it for focusing and manually rotate it to frame my target the way I want it. NINA has an excellent framing tool and you can adjust camera rotation in 5 degree increments with it. When ASTAP platesolves it reports the rotation so it is a simple matter to get the camera aligned properly even for dim targets.

Good move on replacing the springy bolts with something more solid. My Celestron mount bolts were aluminum (I think) and I could almost feel them warping under pressure. The steel replacement bolts are a lot firmer and more precise to work with, although still not perfect.

Bob
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Re: Well, astrophotography the modern way with computers and software is somewhat more difficult than expected.

#15

Post by cumbrianwolf »


Thank you for that update, yes I am using PHD2 in conjunction with N.I.N.A for the guiding aspect. With regard to polar alignment I use N.I.N.A as on the newer nightly builds it has an option for plugins and one such plug in is a three point polar align which once the sky is mapped it offers up suggested adjustments to align as in up, down, left, right and in order to do this it takes a series of shots to then plate solves before recalibration to confirm if you are getting close or not. I never could get it that accurate, and I think the fault was the bolts all along, as each adjustment was never accurate enough and by default the program would have the scope hanging over the side of the mount where most of the weight would focus on the springy bolts and each adjustment had it jumping around. Now of course it is to await the clear skies once again as this high pressure is not helping us.
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cumbrianwolf wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:21 am Thank you for that update, yes I am using PHD2 in conjunction with N.I.N.A for the guiding aspect. With regard to polar alignment I use N.I.N.A as on the newer nightly builds it has an option for plugins and one such plug in is a three point polar align which once the sky is mapped it offers up suggested adjustments to align as in up, down, left, right and in order to do this it takes a series of shots to then plate solves before recalibration to confirm if you are getting close or not. I never could get it that accurate, and I think the fault was the bolts all along, as each adjustment was never accurate enough and by default the program would have the scope hanging over the side of the mount where most of the weight would focus on the springy bolts and each adjustment had it jumping around. Now of course it is to await the clear skies once again as this high pressure is not helping us.
OK so to answer the question you had about switching in the Svbony on the main scope for PA, I wouldn't. I would leave the DSLR in place and buy more batteries if needed. Switching cameras would also require refocusing unless you have exactly the same distance to the sensor on the DLSR and the guidescope. Too many moving parts is always a risk during a session. Even if you don't drop one of them, there is always the chance the settings will be screwed up for the night, or you may forget to tell NINA about the change and waste time troubleshooting that could be better spent collecting subs. There are just too many moving parts for my taste. Of course this is only my opinion and you can do it whichever way makes you feel more comfortable.

Bob
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Re: Well, astrophotography the modern way with computers and software is somewhat more difficult than expected.

#17

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Sorry, I'm kinda late to the game here. Just skimming all the conversations so far so I may have missed something. If there's anything I can help you with regarding NINA, let me know.
In your first post you mention an issue with coordinates in Stellarium and NINA conflicting. Make sure your physical location in Stellarium is correct and then make sure NINA is taking that info from Stellarium. I use both and have run into that problem in the past when somehow my location in Stellarium got changed to somewhere in Europe. (I'm in Nevada.)
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Re: Well, astrophotography the modern way with computers and software is somewhat more difficult than expected.

#18

Post by cumbrianwolf »


Some food for thought, I will stick with using the DSLR for the polar align to save adding more complications whilst I get my schedule in order. Off to buy a few more batteries for the camera to see me through the night or maybe one of those battery replacers since I have mains available via a dry box with an RCD of course. Thank you to all for the comments, I now need to await clear skies, and then I will be back with more questions no doubt.
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#19

Post by bobharmony »


If you have main power available a power adapter for the camera should work well. I have one similar to this one (the same supplier) for my 60D since 2014 without a hiccup. No longer available but I'm sure you can find something for the 7D.



I'm guessing Canon probably sells one too. I avoided theirs for the 60D because of the huge difference in price.

Bob
Hardware: Celestron C6-N w/ Advanced GTmount, Baader MK iii CC, Orion ST-80, Canon 60D (unmodded), Nikon D5300 (modded), Orion SSAG
Software: BYE, APT, PHD2, DSS, PhotoShop CC 2020, StarTools, Cartes du Ciel, AstroTortilla

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cumbrianwolf
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Re: Well, astrophotography the modern way with computers and software is somewhat more difficult than expected.

#20

Post by cumbrianwolf »


bobharmony wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 4:21 pm If you have main power available a power adapter for the camera should work well. I have one similar to this one (the same supplier) for my 60D since 2014 without a hiccup. No longer available, but I'm sure you can find something for the 7D.



I'm guessing Canon probably sells one too. I avoided theirs for the 60D because of the huge difference in price.

Bob
Just purchased an AC adapter and dummy battery as that will save me a whole of effort and time as the cold sets in as I won't have to worry about it.
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