looking for a filter to enhance nebulas in bortle 7 visual observing

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realflow100 United States of America
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looking for a filter to enhance nebulas in bortle 7 visual observing

#1

Post by realflow100 »


I have my eyes on an astromania O-III Filter for a pretty good deal.
is there a better one that would work better?
Anything specific for orion nebula maybe?
maybe one that would work on lagoon nebula or swan nebula too?
Svbony SV503 70mm ED F6 420mm FL refractor telescope (New)
Canon EOS 100D/SL1
Tamron 18-200mm F3.5-F6.3 II VC lens
canon 50mm STM F1.8
svbony 8-24mm zoom eyepiece
svbony goldline 66 degree 9mm and 6mm + 40mm plossl + 2x barlow.
svbony UHC 1.25 filter + astromania 1.25" O-3 filter + also an svbony H-B filter.
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messier 111 Canada
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Re: looking for a filter to enhance nebulas in bortle 7 visual observing

#2

Post by messier 111 »


it all depends on what you want to see, for me the center of m42 is better without filter.
the contours of the nebula are very beautiful with the oIII working very well.
same thing for the lagoon.
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realflow100 United States of America
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Re: looking for a filter to enhance nebulas in bortle 7 visual observing

#3

Post by realflow100 »


I just want to see more of ANYTHING. as i can barely see anything to begin with!
orion is barely a faint glowy fuzz in my telescope. and not visible naked eye :(
Svbony SV503 70mm ED F6 420mm FL refractor telescope (New)
Canon EOS 100D/SL1
Tamron 18-200mm F3.5-F6.3 II VC lens
canon 50mm STM F1.8
svbony 8-24mm zoom eyepiece
svbony goldline 66 degree 9mm and 6mm + 40mm plossl + 2x barlow.
svbony UHC 1.25 filter + astromania 1.25" O-3 filter + also an svbony H-B filter.
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Bigzmey United States of America
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Re: looking for a filter to enhance nebulas in bortle 7 visual observing

#4

Post by Bigzmey »


I see you already have svbony UHC filter. Does it improve the veiws of Orion Nebula?
Scopes: Stellarvue: SV102ED; Celestron: 9.25" EdgeHD, 8" SCT, 150ST, Onyx 80ED; iOptron: Hankmeister 6" Mak; SW: 7" Mak; Meade: 80ST.
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Re: looking for a filter to enhance nebulas in bortle 7 visual observing

#5

Post by WilliamPaolini »


realflow100 wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 5:29 pm I just want to see more of ANYTHING. as i can barely see anything to begin with!
orion is barely a faint glowy fuzz in my telescope. and not visible naked eye :(

I am supposing that you mean in your 70mm f/6 scope? What magnification are you using when it appears as nothing more than a "faint glowy fuzz"?
-Bill

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8" f/5 Newt - Lunt 152 f/7.9 - TSA 102 f/8 - Vixen 81S f/7.7 - P.S.T. - Pentax 65ED II - Nikon 12x50 AE
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Re: looking for a filter to enhance nebulas in bortle 7 visual observing

#6

Post by AstroBee »


Filters like the OIII are great but can only do so much. There's no substitute for dark skies. Maybe take the money you are thinking of spending on a filter and use it on gas to get you to a darker sky. I doubt you will regret it. Your profile pic says you are in Orangeburg, SC. Try a short trip to the north to the Congaree Swamp National Monument or to your south between Branchville and Smoaks.
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realflow100 United States of America
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Re: looking for a filter to enhance nebulas in bortle 7 visual observing

#7

Post by realflow100 »


The svbony UHC filter barely makes any difference at all. almost negligible. the background sky and stars are dimmer. but the contrast of the nebula against the background sky is almost identical. so it makes almost no difference.
Ive tried all kinds of magnification and it doesnt really make much difference from 11x to 53x with 40mm plossl eyepiece or svbony 8-24mm and it gets bigger but dimmer at higher magnification. so any gains from more magnification just get cancelled out by the dimmer image.
I asked a couple random people to try to see if they could see it in my telescope but no one even saw more than a couple very faint stars. they didnt even see the very faint orion nebulas core that I see.
Ive also got a barlow but see no point using it with such a dim image already at 8mm/53x
its a cheap 70mm F6 achromat telescope. flocked and baffled. so it should have as good of contrast image as it could reasonably have. double double is splittable but barely. in average or better seeing. jupiter has plenty of bands visible. and saturns cassini division is just almost barely visible if the seeing is extremely exceptional. but hard to detect.

and we dont got any kind of transportation right now. no vehicle. i cant drive either. and public transportation is super expensive. 40$ for a short cab ride to the store and back to get groceries for just me and my mother.
my mother would have to come with me and we'd have to find a campground or something with temporary housing or something to stay in. it wouldn't be worth it to stay for just a night or 2. way too expensive.
Svbony SV503 70mm ED F6 420mm FL refractor telescope (New)
Canon EOS 100D/SL1
Tamron 18-200mm F3.5-F6.3 II VC lens
canon 50mm STM F1.8
svbony 8-24mm zoom eyepiece
svbony goldline 66 degree 9mm and 6mm + 40mm plossl + 2x barlow.
svbony UHC 1.25 filter + astromania 1.25" O-3 filter + also an svbony H-B filter.
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Re: looking for a filter to enhance nebulas in bortle 7 visual observing

#8

Post by WilliamPaolini »


Such a small aperture in a bright Bortle 7 sky as you can tell is a challenge, even for the very bright Orion Nebula. Image scale is also important though for any details. Even with a small aperture IMO you will want 70x or more to get enough image scale that the nebula can come to life a little. So in your scope a 5mm or 6mm eyepiece is what I would recommend - i.e., use your 2x with the 8-24 zoom to get to effective 5-6mm. The 6mm will give you a 1mm exit pupil and that should be fine. Now working at a 1mm exit pupil is IMO just too aggressive for an O-III filter. With an O-III I prefer 2 to 3mm exit pupil so the view is not so dim. So given you need a smaller exit pupil with your scope to achieve sufficient magnification, I think something broader like a Lumicon Deep Sky or an Astronomik UHC-E (about same spectrum as Explore Scientific UHC or Optlong UHC or Starguy UHC) filter will probably serve better. These are rather broad so will give just a slight improvement to the view, like you were observing at a slightly darker site. Given their broadness they also will keep the stars colors looking fairly ok or natural and not wink out a lot of stars like an O-III will. For me part of the beauty of the Orion Nebula are the faint stars embedded in the nebula, consequently an O-III eliminates many of these so I just do not like it for Orion.

As a side note, many of the UHC filters pass a swatch in the blue-green spectrum, then another swatch in the red spectrum. This dual band approach means that the brighter stars in the field appear as blue and red dots, so like half blue and half red. Very annoying for me. If you instead use the Lumicon UHC (2018 and later versions) or the TV Bandmate-II Nebustar filter, these only pass a swatch in the blue-green spectrum so stars stay nicely blue. Note - this half red and half blue visual is probably a consequence more for refractors than reflectors since refractors, even APOs, do not precisely focus all the colors at one point. So reflector users might not notice as readily this color duality for stars with the dual pass UHC filters. I only use refractors FYI and no longer have mirrored scopes in service (the 8" f/5 in my sig line is unmounted waiting for the day when the 6" f/8 Apo gets too heavy for me to lug around).

If you want to compare the spectra of different filters, go to this link. When it comes up it has several pre-selected so just use the right panel list of filter brands and unselect any already selected so the sprectra screen is blank, then you can click on various filters listed to compare their spectra.

https://searchlight.semrock.com/?sid=a0 ... 3d7e7c0eb8#
-Bill

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8" f/5 Newt - Lunt 152 f/7.9 - TSA 102 f/8 - Vixen 81S f/7.7 - P.S.T. - Pentax 65ED II - Nikon 12x50 AE
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Re: looking for a filter to enhance nebulas in bortle 7 visual observing

#9

Post by realflow100 »


I did tried higher magnification. with or without the UHC filter but the image is way too dark around 70x (with 6mm eyepiece.) I just can't see anything more. and its super hard to focus too.
its just the same fuzzy glow. just bigger and dimmer. not really any new details
Svbony SV503 70mm ED F6 420mm FL refractor telescope (New)
Canon EOS 100D/SL1
Tamron 18-200mm F3.5-F6.3 II VC lens
canon 50mm STM F1.8
svbony 8-24mm zoom eyepiece
svbony goldline 66 degree 9mm and 6mm + 40mm plossl + 2x barlow.
svbony UHC 1.25 filter + astromania 1.25" O-3 filter + also an svbony H-B filter.
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Re: looking for a filter to enhance nebulas in bortle 7 visual observing

#10

Post by Bigzmey »


realflow100 wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 9:27 pm I did tried higher magnification. with or without the UHC filter but the image is way too dark around 70x (with 6mm eyepiece.) I just can't see anything more. and its super hard to focus too.
its just the same fuzzy glow. just bigger and dimmer. not really any new details
OIII filter will give you even darker view compared to UHC. Try 20-30x with UHC
Scopes: Stellarvue: SV102ED; Celestron: 9.25" EdgeHD, 8" SCT, 150ST, Onyx 80ED; iOptron: Hankmeister 6" Mak; SW: 7" Mak; Meade: 80ST.
Mounts: SW: SkyTee2, AzGTi; iOptron: AZMP; ES: Twilight I; Bresser: EXOS2; UA: MicroStar.
Binos: APM: 100-90 APO; Canon: IS 15x50; Orion: Binoviewer, LG II 15x70, WV 10x50, Nikon: AE 16x50, 10x50, 8x40.
EPs: Pentax: XWs & XFs; TeleVue: Delites, Panoptic & Plossls; ES: 68, 62; Vixen: SLVs; Baader: BCOs, Aspherics, Mark IV.
Diagonals: Baader: BBHS mirror, Zeiss Spec T2 prism, Clicklock dielectric; TeleVue: Evebrite dielectric; AltairAstro: 2" prism.
Filters: Lumicon: DeepSky, UHC, OIII, H-beta; Baader: Moon & SkyGlow, Contrast Booster, UHC-S, 6-color set; Astronomik: UHC.

Observing: DSOs: 3106 (Completed: Messier, Herschel 1, 2, 3. In progress: H2,500: 2180, S110: 77). Doubles: 2382, Comets: 34, Asteroids: 255
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Re: looking for a filter to enhance nebulas in bortle 7 visual observing

#11

Post by WilliamPaolini »


realflow100 wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 9:27 pm I did tried higher magnification. with or without the UHC filter but the image is way too dark around 70x (with 6mm eyepiece.) I just can't see anything more. and its super hard to focus too.
its just the same fuzzy glow. just bigger and dimmer. not really any new details

Hmmm. Seems odd to me. I will mask my 81mm Apo to 70mm and give it a shot maybe later tonight. I live in a red zone so easily Bortle 7. Will be an interesting experiment.
-Bill

U.S.A.F. Veteran - Visual Amateur Astronomer since 1966 - Fully Retired since 2019
8" f/5 Newt - Lunt 152 f/7.9 - TSA 102 f/8 - Vixen 81S f/7.7 - P.S.T. - Pentax 65ED II - Nikon 12x50 AE
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Re: looking for a filter to enhance nebulas in bortle 7 visual observing

#12

Post by WilliamPaolini »


You know, there is a fairly large Church Parking lot with only one parking light pole in it (according to satellite pic on Google) at 5710 Freedom Rd, Branchville, SC, south on 21, which is only about 12 miles south of you and is a much darker Green Zone. So close you should give it a try.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/5710+ ... 80.8252774
-Bill

U.S.A.F. Veteran - Visual Amateur Astronomer since 1966 - Fully Retired since 2019
8" f/5 Newt - Lunt 152 f/7.9 - TSA 102 f/8 - Vixen 81S f/7.7 - P.S.T. - Pentax 65ED II - Nikon 12x50 AE
Pentax XWs - Baader Morpheus - Takahashi LEs - Edmund RKEs - BST Starguiders - 6ZAO-II/5XO/4Abbe
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realflow100 United States of America
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Re: looking for a filter to enhance nebulas in bortle 7 visual observing

#13

Post by realflow100 »


The google image seems to be from 2018. a lot could change in 3 years! it looks like ive spotted a second street lamp from the street-view
12 miles is almost within pedal bike riding distance. but I'm not sure I could carry my telescope with me on my bike all that way. it'd be really awkward.
walking would be super dangerous at night especially for a far distance.
Maybe if I could get super super cheap public transportation there somehow?
Svbony SV503 70mm ED F6 420mm FL refractor telescope (New)
Canon EOS 100D/SL1
Tamron 18-200mm F3.5-F6.3 II VC lens
canon 50mm STM F1.8
svbony 8-24mm zoom eyepiece
svbony goldline 66 degree 9mm and 6mm + 40mm plossl + 2x barlow.
svbony UHC 1.25 filter + astromania 1.25" O-3 filter + also an svbony H-B filter.
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Re: looking for a filter to enhance nebulas in bortle 7 visual observing

#14

Post by WilliamPaolini »


OK. Viewed M42 tonight around 11:30pm my time. It was about 35 degrees above the horizon. I recently moved so am now in a red zone again so very light polluted, and have not observed M42 yes this season from here. Used my 80mm f/6.25 Apo masked down to 70mm.

Since I wanted image scale to get detail I used 71x @ 0.98mm exit pupil, and 62.5x @ 1.12mm exit pupil. In your 70mm f/6 scope that would be like using a 5.9mm eyepiece and a 6.72mm eyepiece, so rounding a 6mm and 7mm eyepiece.

At 62-71x, I felt that M42 was plenty large to see details so not a bad magnification. I would not want to go less magnification though as would make the mottled structure in the core of the nebula fairly hard to see.

Here's my impressions --

1) No filtration:
Horrible. Nebula was just a milky expanse with mainly just the core visible. The wings were stubs. The fish mouth feature was not well defined and M43 not to be seen.

2) Lumicon Deep Sky filter
This was my preferred filter. At 0.98mm exit pupil the mottled structure was very nicely defined, as was the fish mouth feature. M43 also there as a bright patch. Background sky around the nebula was fairly dark. Wing structures we more defined and longer than I could see with no filtration. They were a bit dim though but popped a little better with adverted vision. The 4 stars of the Trapezium were nicely visible and the 3 stars embedded along the root of one of the wings were also nicely bright. When I brightened it us using the eyepiece that produced 1.12mm exit pupil the wings of the nebula showed greatly extended, especially with adverted vision. However the mottled structure of the nebula was no longer visible. So I actually enjoyed using the two different exit pupils as each brought out different features better.

3) Astronomik UHC-E filter
This filter was my 2nd choice. Using this little more aggressive filter showed the mottled structure a little better, and M43 was brighter with the surrounding background showing darker. However the overall extent of the nebula was much less. Using the eyepiece that produced the 1.12mm exit pupil was more enjoyable than using the 0.98mm exit pupil. I did not bring out an eyepiece to produce a slightly brighter exit pupil but would guess that if I had this filter might have been much better, but of course the image scale would have suffered some.

4) Astronomik UHC filter
This filter I felt was too aggressive at the exit pupils I was working at. This filter made the background sky much darker. So much so that the core of the nebula appeared quite bright. However the wings were very dim so it just reduced the extent of the nebula way too much for my taste. The stars in the nebula were also much less prominent looking than with the other filters. Again, using larger exit pupils might have helped a lot, but at the loss of much preferred image scale IMO.

5) Astronomik O-III filter
Over the top too aggressive! Did not like at all! Nebula looked small and not like the familiar bat with wings at all. Stars in the nebula were also difficult to see well.

Given that this is a fairly light polluted location, and I had a good amount of external lights in the area to combat, to get these results it is essential to fully shield your eye so absolutely no extraneous light comes into your eye when observing. So I cupped my hands around my eye and eyepiece so zero light could get in. Sitting like this for a while also helped a lot as my eye could dark adapt more. An observing hood would have been the best option but I do not have one. With a hood so would be easier to more thoroughly dark adapt I would expect that the Astronomik UHC-E filter might have been preferred, or even the Astronomik UHC filter. However, I often prefer convenience so easier to not go to those extremes for me. Plus, with M42 being basically the brightest nebula, using the more aggressive filters with this small aperture would probably make them one show ponies. Given that all the other "brighter" nebula are dimmer than M42, I feel the Lumicon Deep Sky filter or Astronomik UHC-E filter would be more versatile across more nebula using a small aperture like this from such a light polluted location.

I may run this experiment again in the near future using some eyepieces that produce brighter exit pupils so stay tuned :-)

FWIW, when I am at darker sites, for M42 I always prefer the view with no filtration rather than any of the above filters as I can see more details. So these filters really helped at this light polluted location!
-Bill

U.S.A.F. Veteran - Visual Amateur Astronomer since 1966 - Fully Retired since 2019
8" f/5 Newt - Lunt 152 f/7.9 - TSA 102 f/8 - Vixen 81S f/7.7 - P.S.T. - Pentax 65ED II - Nikon 12x50 AE
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realflow100 United States of America
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Re: looking for a filter to enhance nebulas in bortle 7 visual observing

#15

Post by realflow100 »


I see!

So its not a problem to try to go for higher magnification? should I really try it anyways? even if it seems rather dim at first?

Also very briefly over my observing period last time I remember I thought I saw the dimmest of glow where m43 would be very briefly in averted vision over a fairly long observing session. but not 100% sure. when using my svbony UHC filter.
but theres no trace of it without the UHC. I was only around an 8mm eyepiece size at the time.
Svbony SV503 70mm ED F6 420mm FL refractor telescope (New)
Canon EOS 100D/SL1
Tamron 18-200mm F3.5-F6.3 II VC lens
canon 50mm STM F1.8
svbony 8-24mm zoom eyepiece
svbony goldline 66 degree 9mm and 6mm + 40mm plossl + 2x barlow.
svbony UHC 1.25 filter + astromania 1.25" O-3 filter + also an svbony H-B filter.
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Re: looking for a filter to enhance nebulas in bortle 7 visual observing

#16

Post by realflow100 »


Oh did you see any color in the nebula or is it just a dull grey color same as the background sky? Any differences between the filters for the nebula? compared to no filter?
For me its almost a very light blueish cyan-green or something. whether im using a filter or no filter
Svbony SV503 70mm ED F6 420mm FL refractor telescope (New)
Canon EOS 100D/SL1
Tamron 18-200mm F3.5-F6.3 II VC lens
canon 50mm STM F1.8
svbony 8-24mm zoom eyepiece
svbony goldline 66 degree 9mm and 6mm + 40mm plossl + 2x barlow.
svbony UHC 1.25 filter + astromania 1.25" O-3 filter + also an svbony H-B filter.
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Re: looking for a filter to enhance nebulas in bortle 7 visual observing

#17

Post by WilliamPaolini »


FYI, your Svbony UHC has about the same spectrum as the Astronomik UHC-E fitler I used. An 8mm or 7mm should work fine with that filter and your scope. So IMO you are set using that with your scope for M42. For best visual results a simple minimum glass eyepiece will show you a little better results than a more complex wide field. Should make the mottled structure more visible. That is my experience. So if you have a 7mm or 8mm Plossl or Ortho or Kelner or RKE those IMO will give a little more contrast with the nebula. When M42 is higher above the horizon you will get better results as well since viewing through less contrast robbing atmosphere. As far as color, nope. I do not see color in M42 even with a 10" scope. But then again I usually wait til my eyes are dark adapted so at that point everything is B&W.
-Bill

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Re: looking for a filter to enhance nebulas in bortle 7 visual observing

#18

Post by realflow100 »


oh.. Weird. the closest I have to an eyepiece like that would be my 9mm with my barlow in 1.5x configuration (lens threaded directly to the eyepiece barrel. without the barlow adapter part). it has the clearest and cleanest image with the least aberrations. 70x with my scope
Svbony SV503 70mm ED F6 420mm FL refractor telescope (New)
Canon EOS 100D/SL1
Tamron 18-200mm F3.5-F6.3 II VC lens
canon 50mm STM F1.8
svbony 8-24mm zoom eyepiece
svbony goldline 66 degree 9mm and 6mm + 40mm plossl + 2x barlow.
svbony UHC 1.25 filter + astromania 1.25" O-3 filter + also an svbony H-B filter.
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Re: looking for a filter to enhance nebulas in bortle 7 visual observing

#19

Post by Refractordude »


Sometimes those filters work sometimes they don't. I would wait for one to come up used at Astomart or cloudynights. You can often sell a used item for what you paid for it. As already stated the best filter is gasoline to a dark site. Once observed Orion from Stephen Foster State Park and was completely blown away at the amount of detail. Had to end the session out of fear that a crocodile might come up on land.
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Re: looking for a filter to enhance nebulas in bortle 7 visual observing

#20

Post by realflow100 »


I got a cheap 45$ astromania O-III filter from amazon today. so far it seems to be promising! I did a quick test with just some photographs of orion nebula. in various "light pollution" levels
and it does make a huge contrast boost improvement. the background is super dark with the filter. and the orange/yellow light pollution is just blacked right out and the orion nebula pops more. especially the really dark dust that pops the most. the wings too also seem to extend more

Hopefully i'll see as much or even more improvement in actual use with an eyepiece!
Only problem is I have to worry about the moon and clouds for the next few days. past midnight is clouded over tonight :(
Svbony SV503 70mm ED F6 420mm FL refractor telescope (New)
Canon EOS 100D/SL1
Tamron 18-200mm F3.5-F6.3 II VC lens
canon 50mm STM F1.8
svbony 8-24mm zoom eyepiece
svbony goldline 66 degree 9mm and 6mm + 40mm plossl + 2x barlow.
svbony UHC 1.25 filter + astromania 1.25" O-3 filter + also an svbony H-B filter.
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