Tracking Upgrade or Tracking Mount or GoTo Mount??

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lsintampa
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Tracking Upgrade or Tracking Mount or GoTo Mount??

#1

Post by lsintampa »


So, I'm just a nubie at this, but seems that I'm falling into the hobby head first. Being retired, I have to be mindful of my "toys" and related expenses - so that's always a consideration.

Anyway, I've had some luck with my Celestron 102 XLT - with an eq-4 mount. I do want to get into doing some astrophotography (just ordered a new camera as my old Nikon D50 isn't really cut out for AP). Interest here is lunar, planets, stars, and DSO - so most of what's available out there.

That said, I'm thinking ahead to next steps for AP. I'll need tracking for sure, but I'm not certain what direction to go.

1) Upgrade my current eq-4 mount with dual motor upgrade - would provide tracking - no goto. Not sure that's a big deal or not?
2) Tracking equipment like iOptron SkyGuider or SkyTracker - won't hold my scope BUT, the 102 wouldn't be what I'd be using as I intend to add another refractor (APO) for AP. However seems that there are many "accessories" needed on top of just the mount - I find it very confusing. I have a very good photo mount with ball head for my camera - so adding a tracker to that setup seems very appealing to me - albeit maybe the most expensive route.
3) GoTo mounts - seem affordable - then I'd end up with a eq-4 mount to sell or trash - no clue what I'd need it for. The other downside is if "goto" is really necessary? Also, I find the eq-4 mount very heavy to tote about and my guess is these GoTo mounts may be much heavier.

Some other items I'll need are "in common" regardless of what direction I end up going. Those things, will take time for me to absorb.

For now, just seeking some guidance to help me sort all the things that I've floating around in my little mind.
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Re: Tracking Upgrade or Tracking Mount or GoTo Mount??

#2

Post by Lady Fraktor »


1) A single tracking motor is all you would need as the mount only turns on one while doing AP
2) Most of these mounts have a low weight capacity so are more for just a camera or small refractor, not both. Pay close attention to their capacity.
3) While letting the one set up take images you use the other to do visual :)
See Far Sticks: Antares Elita 103/1575, AOM FLT 105/1000, Bresser BV 127/1200, Nočný stopár 152/1200, Vyrobené doma 70/700, Stellarvue NHNG DX 80/552, TAL RS100/1000, Vixen SD115s/885
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Re: Tracking Upgrade or Tracking Mount or GoTo Mount??

#3

Post by Star Dad »


I built a barn door tracker for my Canon camera on a standard photo tripod. About $50 and a little bit of soldering and woodworking. You can buy a windup-one (I think) for about $120. It has given me a couple of great Milky Way photos. I used a 50mm lens. Theoretically you can go to about 300mm with my tracker, but I have not had the opportunity to try it out.

GoTo is not necessary - if you are really going to do deep sky objects though, computer control (ASCOM) is almost a necessity. Casual DSO imaging though probably would not require it. But making sure you are on target and tracking precisely is very important. Sometimes I struggle to get decent tracking with my Atlas and it's a pretty good mount even with a tracking scope, PHD and Astrotorilla software. It's not an inexpensive "hobby".
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Re: Tracking Upgrade or Tracking Mount or GoTo Mount??

#4

Post by ARock »


Welcome to the rabbit hole of AP :)

It all depends on your budget. If you can afford it, the minimum for conventional AP is a goto mount like AVX (about $900) and a 80mm APO (another $900).

However simple AP can be done with a $30 tracking motor, and a DSLR mounted on your CG-4, with 20-30 second exposures. You could also use the DSLR with a short length achromatic refractor ($100). The CG-4 is not an AP mount so this path will some DIY (do it yourself). Bit it is good enough for learning the basic principles of AP.

Look at astrobin.com and search for CG-4 to see what kind of pictures people take with a CG-4 and what gear they use with it.
https://www.astrobin.com/search/?q=CG-4

Also look at for AP results using a mount like yours
https://stargazerslounge.com/topic/2790 ... challenge/
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Scopes: Zhumell Z8, Meade Adventure 80mm, Bushnell 1300x100 Goto Mak.
Mount: ES EXOS Nano EQ Mount, DIY Arduino+Stepper drives.
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Re: Tracking Upgrade or Tracking Mount or GoTo Mount??

#5

Post by JayTee »


So let's summarize.

For deep sky objects (DSOs) you will need the simple tracking motor on the R.A. axis of your current mount. You will need to accomplish a very accurate polar alignment (less than one minute of arc error) and then simply attach your camera with its lens to the mount, no telescope. With this setup you should be able to capture is least one minute exposure duration images. If you take several dozen of these images you can stack them together into a very acceptable image.

Now for planetary and lunar. You still need the same tracking motor and you still need an accurate polar alignment but now you put your telescope on the mount and you install a barlow into the focuser and then your camera into the Barlow. We do this because planetary imaging requires long focal length but with much shorter exposures, usually significantly less than one second. You should be able to get some decent planetary and lunar images set up this way.

Cheers,
JT
∞ Primary Scopes: #1: Celestron CPC1100 #2: 8" f/7.5 Dob #3: CR150HD f/8 6" frac
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Re: Tracking Upgrade or Tracking Mount or GoTo Mount??

#6

Post by pakarinen »


I'll toss in my opinion FWIW - go-to mounts are things of great beauty. However, you need to be aware that they can and do go insane, sometimes for no apparent reason. There are numerous strings discussing the horrors on that other site.

I' m not saying they're bad, I'm just saying you need to be aware of the positives and negatives of your potential choices, especially if you're hobby-cash-poor like me.
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Re: Tracking Upgrade or Tracking Mount or GoTo Mount??

#7

Post by russmax »


Why would I want to track a barn door?
—Russmax
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Re: Tracking Upgrade or Tracking Mount or GoTo Mount??

#8

Post by KathyNS »


lsintampa wrote: Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:02 pmInterest here is lunar, planets, stars, and DSO
Well, that narrows it down: to everything!! ;) To do DSO AP and planetary/lunar AP, you need two different rigs, because the requirements are different.

For DSOs, you need accurate tracking, possibly guiding (though you can get by without it for a long time), extreme stability, and fast optics (f/6 or less).

Goto is not a requirement, but it is helpful for finding dim targets. Personally, I don't use goto, because I use plate-solving instead. But plate-solving requires a goto mount, even if you don't use the goto capability. It needs the encoders, so it can tell the mount to move 1 arc-minute to the left, or whatever. With just tracking motors, you will have to do your target acquisition manually through an eyepiece or by taking test frames.

For planetary AP, you need long focal length and fast frame rates. Tracking is helpful, but not essential: some people do decent planetary AP with a hand-tracked Dob! It is normal to use a scope that already has a long focal length, and to add a barlow to it. Planets are tiny, and need all the focal length you can get.

So, a compromise solution is an 8" SCT. A 2x barlow will get it up to 4000mm focal length, which is reasonable for planetary. A 0.63x reducer will speed up the optics to a usable range for DSOs. Mount it on an AVX, or, even better, on an EQ6/Atlas, and it will be a good all-round AP platform.
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Re: Tracking Upgrade or Tracking Mount or GoTo Mount??

#9

Post by Lady Fraktor »


russmax wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:01 pm Why would I want to track a barn door?
—Russmax
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barn_door_tracker
See Far Sticks: Antares Elita 103/1575, AOM FLT 105/1000, Bresser BV 127/1200, Nočný stopár 152/1200, Vyrobené doma 70/700, Stellarvue NHNG DX 80/552, TAL RS100/1000, Vixen SD115s/885
EQ: TAL MT-1, Vixen SXP, AXJ, AXD
Az/Alt: AYO Digi II/ Argo Navis, Stellarvue M2C/ Argo Navis
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Diagonals: Astro-Physics, Baader Amici, Baader Herschel, iStar Blue, Stellarvue DX, Takahashi prism, TAL, Vixen flip mirror
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Re: Tracking Upgrade or Tracking Mount or GoTo Mount??

#10

Post by russmax »


Arock, can you post a link or source for that $30 tracking motor for a CG-4 (along with the mounting, gears, and controls required)?
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Re: Tracking Upgrade or Tracking Mount or GoTo Mount??

#11

Post by ARock »


russmax wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:09 pm Arock, can you post a link or source for that $30 tracking motor for a CG-4 (along with the mounting, gears, and controls required)?
--Russmax
Here you go...


I have personally tried it on my ES EQ Nano mount, but not a CG-4, but other people have
https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/6692 ... -for-cg-4/

The motor has a (tiny) potentiometer for speed control, so it works well with a number of mounts with different gear ratios. It has N/S motor direction change which lets you install the motor on either side of the RA worm, based on available mounting points. For my EXOS Nano EQ mount, I had to extend the slot in one of the included brackets, but as per the link above one of the brackets works with the CG-4 without any changes.
The cons of this motor is
1. The speed control potentiometer needs to be made very accurate for AP. For visual an approximate speed is fine.
2. Adding a motor locks up the RA slow motion cable control. So the only way to move the scope in RA is by loosening the clutches. This is a problem with most RA motors for the CG-4. Using a bigger set screw on the motor coupler can help loosen it on the fly and allow the RA slow motion to work.
http://www.scopestuff.com/ss_eq3sk.htm


For my EXOS Nano EQ mount with a DSLR on Meade Adventure 80, I was able to take 30" seconds shots with my best polar alignment. This was my first DSO image with such a setup.
1438

Eventually I got tired of tweaking the potentiometer and needed guiding, so I built an Arduino/Stepper combo which I use currently.
AR
Scopes: Zhumell Z8, Meade Adventure 80mm, Bushnell 1300x100 Goto Mak.
Mount: ES EXOS Nano EQ Mount, DIY Arduino+Stepper drives.
AP: 50mm guidescope, AR0130 based guidecam, Canon T3i, UHC filter.
EPs: ES82 18,11,6.7mm, Zhumell 30,9mm FJ Ortho 9mm, assorted plossls, Meade 2x S-F Barlow, DGM NPB filter.
Binos: Celestron Skymaster 15x70 (Albott tripod/monopod), Nikon Naturalist 7x35.
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Re: Tracking Upgrade or Tracking Mount or GoTo Mount??

#12

Post by russmax »


ARock, thanks! Very cool.

I had heard of some folks putting a CG-3 motor on a CG-4, but I was nervous about suggesting that. I think the Celestron brand dual-motor set for the CG-4 is already calibrated for sidereal and other tracking, so it would give you that advantage, but cost you $90 more. I understand it also has the problem of locking up the RA manual control cable. People have cobbled thumbscrews to assist with loosening on the fly without an allen wrench.

NIce M42 pic. Proof is in the pudding.

Regards,
Russmax
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Re: Tracking Upgrade or Tracking Mount or GoTo Mount??

#13

Post by ARock »


Those simple motors have been used in other places too, like Dob platforms, the adjustable speed and reversible directions are very useful.
These days one can build a stepper arduino RA motor for about $40 with a programmable sidereal rate. You don't even have to solder anything with the arduino breakout boards available. They are not as compact as the $30 drive, need a 12V supply as opposed to the 9V battery inside the Celestron drive, and mounting to the EQ mount can be a challenge. But you get RA guiding for free, and dont have mess with a potentiometer to get accurate sidereal rate.

Another commonly used DIY platform people use for motorizing scopes, is the ONSTEP platform, which has a great community behind it. If you are lucky you might find someone who has 3D printable brackets for your mount.
AR
Scopes: Zhumell Z8, Meade Adventure 80mm, Bushnell 1300x100 Goto Mak.
Mount: ES EXOS Nano EQ Mount, DIY Arduino+Stepper drives.
AP: 50mm guidescope, AR0130 based guidecam, Canon T3i, UHC filter.
EPs: ES82 18,11,6.7mm, Zhumell 30,9mm FJ Ortho 9mm, assorted plossls, Meade 2x S-F Barlow, DGM NPB filter.
Binos: Celestron Skymaster 15x70 (Albott tripod/monopod), Nikon Naturalist 7x35.
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Re: Tracking Upgrade or Tracking Mount or GoTo Mount??

#14

Post by OzEclipse »


Cheap and astrophotography are mutually exclusive terms. Forgetting the cost of attachment accessories, the key is the accuracy of the drive train. I spent(read wasted) many years working first with low precision, then moderate precision mounts. A few years ago, I purchased a high precision mount. Luxury!!! I'm not suggesting you go out and buy a premium mount, just be realistic with expectations of what you can achieve with a low end mount. Wide angle stuff is easy with low and mid precision mounts without any guiding. guiding + mid-precision mounts allow longer focal lengths.

If you want to put a camera with wide angle to standard lens, then this type of arrangement will work ok. But as soon as you go to telephoto or worse, the prime focus of your current or new APO refractor, the low precision worm and gear train will bear its teeth (pun intended). A small tracking platform or similar device won't be much better.

I thinks others have already said, that GOTO has nothing to do with photographic tracking accuracy or guiding and everything to do with target finding. A good goto system is a joy, a bad one is a XXXXXXXXX@#$%%%^^!!!!!!

Go to astrobin and search for images taken with CG4 mounts. That will give you an idea of what's possible with the CG4.

Joe
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Re: Tracking Upgrade or Tracking Mount or GoTo Mount??

#15

Post by ARock »


I have found that guiding to extend exposure time on low precision mounts is worthwhile for wide angle shots (400mm). Also low precision gear, is usually more portable that mid or high precision gear.

One can use platesolving for pushto for finding/framing DSOs on a non goto mount. A little python scripting on a linux box can hook up a open source platesolver to sky safari.

In visual, they say there are enough things to look at in the night sky with any telescope. So also in AP, there are enough things to photograph with any AP gear, so long as you have your image scale & expectations right. AP with low precision mount, with a 80mm F/5 achromat & a low precision camera, with a low precision drive system, can show me more, than a 8" Dob with visual. So to see a Mag 13-14 nova/supernova, in my skies, I have no choice but to use AP.

The other side benefits are the joys and challenges of making something that works, which in turn gives you appreciation for why high precision gear is expensive and worthwhile :)
AR
Scopes: Zhumell Z8, Meade Adventure 80mm, Bushnell 1300x100 Goto Mak.
Mount: ES EXOS Nano EQ Mount, DIY Arduino+Stepper drives.
AP: 50mm guidescope, AR0130 based guidecam, Canon T3i, UHC filter.
EPs: ES82 18,11,6.7mm, Zhumell 30,9mm FJ Ortho 9mm, assorted plossls, Meade 2x S-F Barlow, DGM NPB filter.
Binos: Celestron Skymaster 15x70 (Albott tripod/monopod), Nikon Naturalist 7x35.
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Re: Tracking Upgrade or Tracking Mount or GoTo Mount??

#16

Post by Lady Fraktor »


ARock wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:52 am The other side benefits are the joys and challenges of making something that works, which in turn gives you appreciation for why high precision gear is expensive and worthwhile :)
Very well put and is applicable to both visual and photography.
See Far Sticks: Antares Elita 103/1575, AOM FLT 105/1000, Bresser BV 127/1200, Nočný stopár 152/1200, Vyrobené doma 70/700, Stellarvue NHNG DX 80/552, TAL RS100/1000, Vixen SD115s/885
EQ: TAL MT-1, Vixen SXP, AXJ, AXD
Az/Alt: AYO Digi II/ Argo Navis, Stellarvue M2C/ Argo Navis
Tripods: Berlebach Planet (2), Uni 28 Astro, Report 372, TAL factory maple, Vixen ASG-CB90, Vixen AXD-TR102
Diagonals: Astro-Physics, Baader Amici, Baader Herschel, iStar Blue, Stellarvue DX, Takahashi prism, TAL, Vixen flip mirror
Eyepieces: Antares to Zeiss
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