The Solstice And An Anomaly

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JayTee United States of America
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The Solstice And An Anomaly

#1

Post by JayTee »


Hi All,

At some point in the distant past, this question was answered for me but I have lost that penguin. My father in law brought me this question last week and I don't have the answer (annoying!)

There is a discrepancy between the date of the earliest sunset and the date of the shortest day length (in the Northern Hemisphere). The shortest day length occurs, as expected, on the Solstice - Dec 21st. However, my earliest sunset occurs centered on Nov 26th ( ±8days on either side). So, after Dec 4th, sunsets slowly get later but sunrises are adjusting fast enough to keep shortening the days until Dec 21st.

All times are local based on data from the USNO. I thought it might have something to do with the fact that I am 7.5° degrees west of the prime meridian for this time zone. But the more I think about this the less likely I believe this explains the anomaly.

Here is the data:
SRSS Nov Dec19.jpg
Can anyone out there reasonably explain what's going on here?

Thanks,
JT
∞ Primary Scopes: #1: Celestron CPC1100 #2: 8" f/7.5 Dob #3: CR150HD f/8 6" frac
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Bigzmey United States of America
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Re: The Solstice And An Anomaly

#2

Post by Bigzmey »


Could it be due to a different Earth to Sun angle at sunrise vs sunset?

On my side I have noticed that it takes longer to get to astronomical dark after sunset during the winter than at summer.
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Gfamily Wales
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Re: The Solstice And An Anomaly

#3

Post by Gfamily »


There are two things going on that contribute to the changes of the length of the day and the exact timing of the sunrise.
One is the direction of the tilt of the Earth's axis - which gives us a cyclical variation in the length of the day (with the shortest being on the Winter Solstice)
The other is the date of the Perihelion - which gives us a cyclical variation in the timing of the Sun crossing the Meridian (and hence of sunrise/sunset) relative to that of the 'mean' .

The two cycles give us the Equation of Time

Because the date of the Solstice is 21/22nd December and the date of Perihelion is around 4th January, these two cyclical variations are not in sync, so the date of the shortest day does not coincide with the date of the earliest sunrise.

Edit to add
This plot shows the two cycles
Image

From this excellent explanation of the Equation of Time
https://www.intmath.com/blog/mathematic ... -time-5039
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Re: The Solstice And An Anomaly

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Post by notFritzArgelander »


Yeppers. That wraps it.
Scopes: Refs: Orion ST80, SV 80EDA f7, TS 102ED f11 Newts: AWB 130mm, f5, Z12 f5; Cats: VMC110L, Intes MK66,VMC200L f9.75 EPs: KK Fujiyama Orthoscopics, 2x Vixen NPLs (40-6mm) and BCOs, Baader Mark IV zooms, TV Panoptics, Delos, Plossl 32-8mm. Mixed brand Masuyama/Astroplans Binoculars: Nikon Aculon 10x50, Celestron 15x70, Baader Maxbright. Mounts: Star Seeker IV, Vixen Porta II, Celestron CG5
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Re: The Solstice And An Anomaly

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Post by KathyNS »


The date of the earliest sunset also depends on latitude. The following page has an explanation, with diagrams: http://www.sciquill.com/analemma/page2.html

If you visualize the analemma (a graphical representation of the equation of time) positioned at the sunset horizon, it is clear that the earliest sunset occurs not at the solstice, but at a point tangent to the curve of the analemma. Since the analemma will be at a different angle depending on the observer's latitude (horizontal at the equator, vertical at the poles), the position of the tangent point varies with latitude.

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JayTee United States of America
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Re: The Solstice And An Anomaly

#6

Post by JayTee »


Thank you all so much. I must now go into my corner and try to absorb all of this.

But first I will wrap my head in duct tape, just in case.

Thanks again,
JT
∞ Primary Scopes: #1: Celestron CPC1100 #2: 8" f/7.5 Dob #3: CR150HD f/8 6" frac
∞ AP Scopes: #1: TPO 6" f/9 RC #2: ES 102 f/7 APO #3: ES 80mm f/6 APO
∞ G&G Scopes: #1: Meade 102mm f/7.8 #2: Bresser 102mm f/4.5
∞ Guide Scopes: 70 & 80mm fracs -- The El Cheapo Bros.
∞ Mounts: iOptron CEM70AG, SW EQ6R, Celestron AVX, SLT & GT (Alt-Az), Meade DS2000
∞ Cameras: #1: ZWO ASI294MC Pro #2: 662MC #3: 120MC, Canon T3i, Orion SSAG, WYZE Cam3
∞ Binos: 10X50,11X70,15X70, 25X100 ∞ AP Gear: ZWO EAF and mini EFW and the Optolong L-eXteme filter
∞ EPs: ES 2": 21mm 100° & 30mm 82° Pentax XW: 7, 10, 14, & 20mm 70°

Searching the skies since 1966. "I never met a scope I didn't want to keep."

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bobharmony
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Re: The Solstice And An Anomaly

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Post by bobharmony »


Thanks for the graphical representation, Kathy. That makes it perfectly clear to me without having to wade through a major thought process. Lord knows I need to save as many of those processes as I can!

Bob
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JayTee United States of America
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Re: The Solstice And An Anomaly

#8

Post by JayTee »


notFritzArgelander wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:45 am Yeppers. That wraps it.
I just praised you for your knowledge, wit, and humor, and this is all I get???? Said with tongue firmly in cheek. :lol: :dance:

Smiling,
JT
∞ Primary Scopes: #1: Celestron CPC1100 #2: 8" f/7.5 Dob #3: CR150HD f/8 6" frac
∞ AP Scopes: #1: TPO 6" f/9 RC #2: ES 102 f/7 APO #3: ES 80mm f/6 APO
∞ G&G Scopes: #1: Meade 102mm f/7.8 #2: Bresser 102mm f/4.5
∞ Guide Scopes: 70 & 80mm fracs -- The El Cheapo Bros.
∞ Mounts: iOptron CEM70AG, SW EQ6R, Celestron AVX, SLT & GT (Alt-Az), Meade DS2000
∞ Cameras: #1: ZWO ASI294MC Pro #2: 662MC #3: 120MC, Canon T3i, Orion SSAG, WYZE Cam3
∞ Binos: 10X50,11X70,15X70, 25X100 ∞ AP Gear: ZWO EAF and mini EFW and the Optolong L-eXteme filter
∞ EPs: ES 2": 21mm 100° & 30mm 82° Pentax XW: 7, 10, 14, & 20mm 70°

Searching the skies since 1966. "I never met a scope I didn't want to keep."

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notFritzArgelander
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Re: The Solstice And An Anomaly

#9

Post by notFritzArgelander »


JayTee wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:03 am
notFritzArgelander wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:45 am Yeppers. That wraps it.
I just praised you for your knowledge, wit, and humor, and this is all I get???? Said with tongue firmly in cheek. :lol: :dance:

Smiling,
JT
Well... when ya kill it, it's dead! The rest is eulogy! :lol:

I'm preoccupied with road trip preparations, though. It's driving me witless. ;)

Since it will be a winter road trip I didn't want to risk icing the cake. :)
Scopes: Refs: Orion ST80, SV 80EDA f7, TS 102ED f11 Newts: AWB 130mm, f5, Z12 f5; Cats: VMC110L, Intes MK66,VMC200L f9.75 EPs: KK Fujiyama Orthoscopics, 2x Vixen NPLs (40-6mm) and BCOs, Baader Mark IV zooms, TV Panoptics, Delos, Plossl 32-8mm. Mixed brand Masuyama/Astroplans Binoculars: Nikon Aculon 10x50, Celestron 15x70, Baader Maxbright. Mounts: Star Seeker IV, Vixen Porta II, Celestron CG5
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