Where have all the visual astronomers gone

[helicon]

I'm feeling a bit like Jaytee. When I use the 4" scope the brightness of images can be a bit underwhelming, especially galaxies. Now they generally don't jump out at you, but even for example M65 and M66 are faintish. I'm wondering at now in my 50's if the floaters (more of them) are causing an issue. Another thing is shorter eye relief which can be fatiguing. One of the remedies will be getting a new Dob to replace my 10" that I did not move up here with, probably a 12", as I've mentioned before, now that my back problem seems to be behind me.

[OzEclipse]

I'm finally joining this excellent conversation because my post probably sounds like a whine.

My visual observing activities have been cut down by at least 90%. The reason is that my memory is now better than my eyesight. Fifty years ago, I would step up to the EP and go WOW with just about everything I observed. Every object seemed bright and full of detail and was a joy to observe. Now, everything is not nearly so bright, and a lot of the detail is gone. Now, instead of WOW, it is usually just "meh", and this a great disappointment to me because I'm remembering it the way it used to look.

This is mostly the reason that has driven me away from visual observing and concentrating more on AP. That and getting cold much more easily. My eye doctor says my eyes are normal for my age so there isn't a whole lot that can be done about the narrowing of my pupil's aperture. I should probably take heart that my memory is still this good!

Sometimes our interests have to shift to accommodate our current state of being.

Cheers (sort of),

I do indeed empathize with your situation JT. I am now 70 and my eyes are not what they once were in terms of acuity and color perception. But fortunately I don't have any issues with cataracts or other things presently. My observing tends toward dimmer things anyway, mostly galaxies as most know. So while I am not typically pursuing bright and detailed objects routinely, when I do, I can still see them in all their glory (for the most part). All that said, I have been considering at some point an intensifier tube to enhance my light capture, particularly at home where its brighter. That may be my future.

Hi Alan,
I have written before about matching maximum pupil dilation to scope/eyepiece exit pupils. I recently sold a pair of optically excellent Japanese made 9x63 binoculars because with my ~5mm pupil dilation, they were showing me about the same intensity as a pair of 10x42ED's. I kept the 10x42ED's, sold the 9x63's and bought a pair of 15x70mm binos.

Likewise, I no longer use eyepieces longer than 31mm in my 18" f5.4 and I have stopped using my Unitron Kellner 40mm in my 6" f7. This always gave wonderful 1.6^o wide field views. I now use the Denkmeier D21mm for wide field viewing which gives me a very respectable wide field of 1.37^o due to the eyepiece's wider AFOV.

A few years ago, I bought 12" f6 Royce Conical Mirror. The long term plan is to build the Royce mirror into a much lighter Dob frame that will be much easier to handle as I age and eventually sell the 18". The Royce's 72" focal length matches my height exactly so no ladder climbing in the dark will be required as it is at the moment with the 18". Depending how my eyes are going, the Royce may still be able to be used with my Nagler 31. As I get older, I may have to sell the 31mm and buy a premium UW 20-25mm.

I note you have a AT UW28mm. I would guess that you don't use it in any of your f4.5-f5 dobs and the Ethos 21mm is as long as you go in those scopes?

We all need to curate our equipment as we age so that we can continue to enjoy the equipment to the best of our (diminishing) abilities.

cheers

[kt4hx]

Hi Alan,
I have written before about matching maximum pupil dilation to scope/eyepiece exit pupils. I recently sold a pair of optically excellent Japanese made 9x63 binoculars because with my ~5mm pupil dilation, they were showing me about the same intensity as a pair of 10x42ED's. I kept the 10x42ED's, sold the 9x63's and bought a pair of 15x70mm binos.

Likewise, I no longer use eyepieces longer than 31mm in my 18" f5.4 and I have stopped using my Unitron Kellner 40mm in my 6" f7. This always gave wonderful 1.6^o wide field views. I now use the Denkmeier D21mm for wide field viewing which gives me a very respectable wide field of 1.37^o due to the eyepiece's wider AFOV.

A few years ago, I bought 12" f6 Royce Conical Mirror. The long term plan is to build the Royce mirror into a much lighter Dob frame that will be much easier to handle as I age and eventually sell the 18". The Royce's 72" focal length matches my height exactly so no ladder climbing in the dark will be required as it is at the moment with the 18". Depending how my eyes are going, the Royce may still be able to be used with my Nagler 31. As I get older, I may have to sell the 31mm and buy a premium UW 20-25mm.

I note you have a AT UW28mm. I would guess that you don't use it in any of your f4.5-f5 dobs and the Ethos 21mm is as long as you go in those scopes?

We all need to curate our equipment as we age so that we can continue to enjoy the equipment to the best of our (diminishing) abilities.

cheers

Hi Joe,
Yeah, the paradigms certainly shift as we age! While I have used the UW28mm in the 17.5 inch just to see how it presented, the 21mm Ethos is the longest focal length I would use in serious observing. My 17.5" requires a two-step stool at zenith. But honestly most of my observing at the dark site does not require using the step stool as I tend to keep my observing at elevations where I can stand on the ground. I also have an aerobics step that I use to provide a solid step up when I need a slight boost.

Cheers!

[gregl]

Michael (Helicon) above mentions floaters. I had one in each eye that made it look like there were two giant houseflies in front of my face. I had them removed with a laser technique. That was years ago so the story of it is probably not relevant today, but the procedure is out there and it was well worth it to me. If floaters are a problem check with an OD and check into laser treatment.

[OzEclipse]

Hi Joe,
Yeah, the paradigms certainly shift as we age! While I have used the UW28mm in the 17.5 inch just to see how it presented, the 21mm Ethos is the longest focal length I would use in serious observing. My 17.5" requires a two-step stool at zenith. But honestly most of my observing at the dark site does not require using the step stool as I tend to keep my observing at elevations where I can stand on the ground. I also have an aerobics step that I use to provide a solid step up when I need a slight boost.

Cheers!

I tend to avoid anything within 15 degrees of the zenith because I need to stand 3-4 steps up the ladder and while up there getting altitude sickness, I have to exert more force than I would like to turn the azimuth bearing. I worry about pushing the ladder over with me on it rather than pushing the telescope. In the dark surrounds, perception plays tricks on you.

Near zenith, I also have to lean in a little to see through the eyepiece.
cheers
Joe

[Baurice]

I'm over 90% photographic these days. For many objects I can get much more detail than can be seen visually. I sometimes browse the sky with binoculars when taking images.

It's also true that people on forums and social media are more interested in photos than descriptions of visual observations.

[Kanadalainen]

I of course remember when the hobby was driven by the visual observer. Then, darker skies were the norm for a great number of people, even in towns. I lived in a small town growing up and one could see a lot more back then that you can now due to the proliferation of light that we experience today. The continued spread of LP has had a most definite negative impact on the visual side of the equation.

I just turned 70 and I am still 100% visual in my approach to the hobby. It is more challenging where we live under a Bortle 6 quality sky. However, we do have a second house in a Bortle 3 area near the Virginia-West Virginia border. I keep my 17.5 inch dob there, which I can still move about using wheel barrow handles.

I have never had any interest in doing AP personally. However, with the more recent EAA and NVD revolution in the hobby, I could see a point where that might become something I will embrace. As my age increases and my physical capabilities decrease, I certainly can see a tipping point at some point. But for now, I will remain a purely visual beast, gathering photons with my eyes alone.

I am not one who has to see amazing details through the eyepiece all the time. While I do enjoy the bright and flashy objects for their intrigue and beauty, I also revel in the dim and challenging. Observing with the mind's eye, considering the time and distance that feeble light takes to reach my eye is an important facet for me. I love the direct engagement with the night sky, star hopping and finding my way without any type of electronic aids. Ultimately we each find our own path and what is right for us personally.

Well said Alan. "Mind's eye" visual work with good knowledge of local skies is half the fun!

Personally, I like to mix AP with visual - I am literally a person doing 40% visual and 60% AP, many evenings on the same night. When my little group of friends (ages 24 - 66) and I go out to a dark site, we tend to bring a dob for visual (and manual) star hopping. Each evening we go out we quiz each other about local star groups, hold off the cuff point and ID games, binos and dobs featuring large. Two of our members have been doing visual astronomy for 40+ years, and are true experts at both visual and AP.

Most of us catch enough data in summer months to last us most of the winter, processing goodies captured when the weather is tolerable, on cloudy nights. When the snow is piling up and its -25*C, there is nothing more fun than putting together a half decent image and diving deep into the knowledge of the targets themselves. Most of my gear is set up for cold weather observation, and so gathering data at -10*C is quite doable. Try standing outside for 4 hours at -10*.... I wish you good luck with that.

My point is that AP allows me months of extra involvement with this hobby when it gets cold - 5 months of the year in central Canada.

I was drawn to astronomy when a kid, did some astrophysics in University, and in those days was *only* a visual observer.

For all of these reasons, I humbly disagree with the suggestion that most AP'ers tend to be lazy in learning the skies, etc.. there is a sizeable contingent of us who blend visual observation and AP.

Sorry for the the long-windedness of this soap box special.

[Bigzmey]

Observing while collecting AP data is a great way to go. I wonder why more astrophotographers not doing that.

[JayTee]

I wonder why more astrophotographers not doing that.

I think some of us are really lazy. That probably makes me the president of the club!

[kt4hx]

Well said Alan. "Mind's eye" visual work with good knowledge of local skies is half the fun!

Personally, I like to mix AP with visual - I am literally a person doing 40% visual and 60% AP, many evenings on the same night. When my little group of friends (ages 24 - 66) and I go out to a dark site, we tend to bring a dob for visual (and manual) star hopping. Each evening we go out we quiz each other about local star groups, hold off the cuff point and ID games, binos and dobs featuring large. Two of our members have been doing visual astronomy for 40+ years, and are true experts at both visual and AP.

Most of us catch enough data in summer months to last us most of the winter, processing goodies captured when the weather is tolerable, on cloudy nights. When the snow is piling up and its -25*C, there is nothing more fun than putting together a half decent image and diving deep into the knowledge of the targets themselves. Most of my gear is set up for cold weather observation, and so gathering data at -10*C is quite doable. Try standing outside for 4 hours at -10*.... I wish you good luck with that.

My point is that AP allows me months of extra involvement with this hobby when it gets cold - 5 months of the year in central Canada.

I was drawn to astronomy when a kid, did some astrophysics in University, and in those days was *only* a visual observer.

For all of these reasons, I humbly disagree with the suggestion that most AP'ers tend to be lazy in learning the skies, etc.. there is a sizeable contingent of us who blend visual observation and AP.

Sorry for the the long-windedness of this soap box special.

I find it very nice that you combine the two aspects of our hobby Ian. Starting as a visual observer you of course learned the sky, which truly adds to the enjoyment of our hobby.

It is of course possible to be a visual observer and not have an intimate knowledge of the night sky, other than perhaps knowing a few bright stars in order to align a go-to or push-to system. I have met some that had no desire to learn more than absolutely necessary in order to use such systems. But I truly find that unfortunate. I have always felt that not taking the time to gain an intimate familiarity of the sky takes away from the overall enjoyment.

[SkyHiker]

I have been alternating between AP and visual with a 12" Dob on an EQ platform. Basically, just a matter of switching binoviewers or eyepiece with an ASI2600MC - swapping the ASI2600MC is no harder than swapping an eyepiece. The AP part is done by taking 2-second images that are stacked in 0.6 seconds by ASIStudio on a Yoga laptop (at 4x binning). No fancy AP control software with autoguiding, just ASIStudio (easy to use) at a fast rate to mitigate poor tracking.

ASIStudio displays the image in real time - not AP quality of course but good enough to show to visitors - and also saves the unprocessed stacked image for manual postprocessing. This mixes visual and AP up nicely because to find the object you have to learn to starhop, and the first view is always visual. If the object is bright enough you can pop in the ASI2600MC for a real-time image.

A single 2-second sub of M13 shows up quite clearly in ASIStudio. Here is the real-time image after 128 seconds,

.


The processing is crude and the image looks pretty flat, but good enough to show to curious visitors. The black bands are caused by the VNS platform not tracking well enough, but I fixed that (better alignment). Here is the postprocessed image of the FITS file of the same data saved by ASIStudio same data produced with PI, BXT and Gimp:

.


Not bad for a Dob.

This is the EQ platform,

,

and here's the strutified Z12 on top of it,

.


I don't know how often I will do this, but it was fun to try. It is certainly fun at star parties and for outreach. I am even getting to know the sky, something I never bothered doing when I was doing only AP.
Viewing the Moon with the binoviewers (WO with the 1.6x nosepiece) is a mesmerizing experience, it is razor sharp and crystal clear too.

[Kanadalainen]

I have been alternating between AP and visual with a 12" Dob on an EQ platform. Basically, just a matter of switching binoviewers or eyepiece with an ASI2600MC - swapping the ASI2600MC is no harder than swapping an eyepiece.

...

Not bad for a Dob.

This is the EQ platform,

and here's the strutified Z12 on top of it,

I don't know how often I will do this, but it was fun to try. It is certainly fun at star parties and for outreach. I am even getting to know the sky, something I never bothered doing when I was doing only AP.
Viewing the Moon with the binoviewers (WO with the 1.6x nosepiece) is a mesmerizing experience, it is razor sharp and crystal clear too.

Awesome, Henk. This is my goal for next year.. use the big dob with a 2 axis eq platform for short exposures, stacking in real time to show DSOs to my visitors at the lake. There is a group of about 10 folks (and their kids) that want me to do an outreach there... and so will try for next summer.

[Mike Q]

I'm feeling a bit like Jaytee. When I use the 4" scope the brightness of images can be a bit underwhelming, especially galaxies. Now they generally don't jump out at you, but even for example M65 and M66 are faintish. I'm wondering at now in my 50's if the floaters (more of them) are causing an issue. Another thing is shorter eye relief which can be fatiguing. One of the remedies will be getting a new Dob to replace my 10" that I did not move up here with, probably a 12", as I've mentioned before, now that my back problem seems to be behind me.

Right the with you on this. After being exposed to aperture right from the get go my 4 inch does not really impress all that much. Did you ever get that 12 inch dob? Personally I would have opted to go bigger, like to a 14 inch as there isnt a lot of difference between a 10 and 12 inch. I am now in my late 50s (58 at the end of the month) and i find myself pulling out the 16 inch over anything else.

[Graeme1858]

..... now that my back problem seems to be behind me.

Good one Michael!

Observing while collecting AP data is a great way to go. I wonder why more astrophotographers not doing that.

I do that. It's always good to get the binoculars out while the camera is collecting photons. I could even put an eyepiece in the APO while the SCT is capturing, but let's not get too carried away!

[Mike Q]

..... now that my back problem seems to be behind me.

Good one Michael!

Observing while collecting AP data is a great way to go. I wonder why more astrophotographers not doing that.

I do that. It's always good to get the binoculars out while the camera is collecting photons. I could even put an eyepiece in the APO while the SCT is capturing, but let's not get too carried away!

I really need to spend more time with my 20x80 binos. Thanks for the reminder

[Caldwell 14]

I remember this question being posed once before in a well known UK based forum a few years ago. Truth is that almost every time we had an outreach event almost everyone asked me if I imagined. Folks getting into the hobby seem to aim straight for astrophotography. To be honest I am not convinced that visual astronomy and astrophotography are the same hobby. One thing for sure is that all of the new technologies out there, and for very little money really, are going to do nothing for the longevity of traditional astronomy. Although I guess that there will always be some folks still at it. Young people want to photograph everything so they can post it on instagram

[Caldwell 14]

Incidentally, I just finished an epic visual session with Jupiter this evening, the perfect seeing, absolutely epic. I sometimes think astrophotography is a bit like going to see your favourite band and then spending the rest of the night watching a little screen as you record it so that you can watch it again later when you get home.

[Bigzmey]

To be honest I am not convinced that visual astronomy and astrophotography are the same hobby.

If the hobby is armature astronomy then visual observing and astrophotography both belong, as naked eye stargazing or solar. All quite different experiences, tool sets and skills but all are astronomy nevertheless.

[Caldwell 14]

Ummmmm, perhaps . I suppose we all came from different places with different interests, but I have certainly come across folks who have never looked through a telescope and have no interest or desire to do so, which I think is a real pity.

The universe outside of this particular planet seems for some to be just one of a multitude of interesting things to take a few snaps off and photoshop and process, I do think for some at least (but absolutely not all) the tag photography comes before the word Astro.

Fair play to them, I wouldn’t have the time, money or patience to do all of the post processing and adding all the colours in and all that. We all love to see them.

[helicon]

I agree that the new technologies are changing things. In the clubs I belong to AP has come to the fore certainly, with many newer members switching over sometimes even before they have mastered the night sky. Partly technology advancement and reliance on phones in daily life is a cause, but also light pollution.