Expensive lesson with Baader BBHS mirror diagonal

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Bigzmey Online United States of America
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Expensive lesson with Baader BBHS mirror diagonal

#1

Post by Bigzmey »

Generally, I am very careful with optics. My diagonals would get some light dust after prolonged use which I remove with rubber bulb duster. So, I was quite surprised (when I was switching My Baader BBHS diagonal between the scopes) to find residue which looked like clear droplets on the mirror. My diagonals always have either dust caps or EPs in them, so no clue how it got there.

When I used Zeiss lens cleaning wipe to gently clean it, the residue softened (which I thought was good) but then when I tried to wipe it clean the silver coating got stripped.

I have been using Zeiss wipes for years on all sorts of optics including BBHS mirrors without any issues. So I blame the mystery residue for that. Still, this experience demonstrates that the hard silver coating is not that hard. So, those who own BBHS mirrors should be extra careful.

Considering the price, I have reached out to Baader to enquire if they offer mirror replacement service.
20240513_110504.jpg
Scopes: Stellarvue: SV102ED; Celestron: 9.25" EdgeHD, 8" SCT, 150ST, Onyx 80ED; iOptron: Hankmeister 6" Mak; SW: 7" Mak; Meade: 80ST.
Mounts: SW: SkyTee2, AzGTi; iOptron: AZMP; ES: Twilight I; Bresser: EXOS2; UA: MicroStar.
Binos: APM: 100-90 APO; Canon: IS 15x50; Orion: Binoviewer, LG II 15x70, WV 10x50, Nikon: AE 16x50, 10x50, 8x40.
EPs: Pentax: XWs & XFs; TeleVue: Delites, Delos, Panoptic & Plossls; ES: 68, 62; Vixen: SLVs; Baader: BCOs, Aspherics, Mark IV.
Diagonals: Baader: BBHS mirror, Zeiss Spec T2 prism, Clicklock dielectric; TeleVue: Evebrite dielectric; AltairAstro: 2" prism.
Filters: Lumicon: DeepSky, UHC, OIII, H-beta; Baader: Moon & SkyGlow, Contrast Booster, UHC-S, 6-color set; Astronomik: UHC.
Solar: HA: Lunt 50mm single stack, W/L: Meade Herschel wedge.

Observing: DSOs: 3122 (Completed: Messier, Herschel 1, 2, 3. In progress: H2,500: 2196, S110: 77). Doubles: 2461, Comets: 34, Asteroids: 261
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Graeme1858 Great Britain
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Re: Expensive lesson with Baader BBHS mirror diagonal

#2

Post by Graeme1858 »

That's odd how anything could have got in there! It must have been something more than a splash of water to strip the coating.

I hope Baader can help you out.

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John Baars Netherlands
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Re: Expensive lesson with Baader BBHS mirror diagonal

#3

Post by John Baars »

Have you any idea what the small clear droplets consisted of?
Maybe originating from insects? Insect residuals are often quite annoying.
I am quite interested in your findings because I own the 1.25 as well as the 2 inch version.
Refractors in frequency of use : *SW Evostar 120ED F/7.5 (all round ), * Vixen 102ED F/9 (vintage), both on Vixen GPDX.
GrabnGo on Alt/AZ : *SW Startravel 102 F/5 refractor( widefield, Sun, push-to), *OMC140 Maksutov F/14.3 ( planets).
Most used Eyepieces: *Panoptic 24, *Morpheus 14, *Leica ASPH zoom, *Zeiss barlow, *Pentax XO5.
Commonly used bino's : *Jena 10X50 , * Canon 10X30 IS, *Swarovski Habicht 7X42, * Celestron 15X70, *Kasai 2.3X40
Rijswijk Public Observatory: * Astro-Physics Starfire 130 f/8, * 6 inch Newton, * C9.25, * Meade 14 inch LX600 ACF, *Lunt.
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Re: Expensive lesson with Baader BBHS mirror diagonal

#4

Post by Bigzmey »

John Baars wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 9:19 am Have you any idea what the small clear droplets consisted of?
Maybe originating from insects? Insect residuals are often quite annoying.
I am quite interested in your findings because I own the 1.25 as well as the 2 inch version.
It would be an educational guess at this point, but I don't think they were insects dropping. Those are typically colored.

The closest thing I can think of would be pine tree resin. I find clear droplets of the pine resin on occasion on my car because there a few pines at my work parking lot. However, those are typically larger than what I saw on the mirror, and the closest pine to my observing spot is ~100m away.
Scopes: Stellarvue: SV102ED; Celestron: 9.25" EdgeHD, 8" SCT, 150ST, Onyx 80ED; iOptron: Hankmeister 6" Mak; SW: 7" Mak; Meade: 80ST.
Mounts: SW: SkyTee2, AzGTi; iOptron: AZMP; ES: Twilight I; Bresser: EXOS2; UA: MicroStar.
Binos: APM: 100-90 APO; Canon: IS 15x50; Orion: Binoviewer, LG II 15x70, WV 10x50, Nikon: AE 16x50, 10x50, 8x40.
EPs: Pentax: XWs & XFs; TeleVue: Delites, Delos, Panoptic & Plossls; ES: 68, 62; Vixen: SLVs; Baader: BCOs, Aspherics, Mark IV.
Diagonals: Baader: BBHS mirror, Zeiss Spec T2 prism, Clicklock dielectric; TeleVue: Evebrite dielectric; AltairAstro: 2" prism.
Filters: Lumicon: DeepSky, UHC, OIII, H-beta; Baader: Moon & SkyGlow, Contrast Booster, UHC-S, 6-color set; Astronomik: UHC.
Solar: HA: Lunt 50mm single stack, W/L: Meade Herschel wedge.

Observing: DSOs: 3122 (Completed: Messier, Herschel 1, 2, 3. In progress: H2,500: 2196, S110: 77). Doubles: 2461, Comets: 34, Asteroids: 261
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Re: Expensive lesson with Baader BBHS mirror diagonal

#5

Post by StarHugger »

Sorry to hear, hopefully there is a recourse light on the pocketbook !

I stay away from glass cleaners and use distilled water on all my optics, in my early years I ruined a 10" mirror with simple dishwashing soap and a few years later I badly smudged the coatings of a vintage eyepiece with an over the counter optics cleaner commonly used at the time by almost everyone.

Slow, gentle and distilled ever since and especially for things adhered, I'll shut down the session or shelf the item until it can be properly dealt with.

I do use the Ziess cleaning fluid on my perscription and reading glasses though.

I hope this coment isent seen as Ziess bashing, since I do still use thier product my expert opinion is that you never know entirely the chemical makeup of your optical coatings and mixing unknowns may produce negative results.
Last edited by StarHugger on Tue May 14, 2024 10:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Expensive lesson with Baader BBHS mirror diagonal

#6

Post by Bigzmey »

While I am very careful with optics I recognize that observing is at risk activity. Equipment could be damaged by the elements, dropping, sliding from clamps, or cleaning in this case. Just the cost of running the operation which you have to accept.

Saying that, I always strive for the equipment which can take some abuse, insect poop or not. :lol: So, from now on I will stay away from Baader BBHS line and will stop recommending it to other observers. Although, I can't prove it at this point I suspect that dielectric mirror or prism would have been just fine after that cleaning procedure.
Scopes: Stellarvue: SV102ED; Celestron: 9.25" EdgeHD, 8" SCT, 150ST, Onyx 80ED; iOptron: Hankmeister 6" Mak; SW: 7" Mak; Meade: 80ST.
Mounts: SW: SkyTee2, AzGTi; iOptron: AZMP; ES: Twilight I; Bresser: EXOS2; UA: MicroStar.
Binos: APM: 100-90 APO; Canon: IS 15x50; Orion: Binoviewer, LG II 15x70, WV 10x50, Nikon: AE 16x50, 10x50, 8x40.
EPs: Pentax: XWs & XFs; TeleVue: Delites, Delos, Panoptic & Plossls; ES: 68, 62; Vixen: SLVs; Baader: BCOs, Aspherics, Mark IV.
Diagonals: Baader: BBHS mirror, Zeiss Spec T2 prism, Clicklock dielectric; TeleVue: Evebrite dielectric; AltairAstro: 2" prism.
Filters: Lumicon: DeepSky, UHC, OIII, H-beta; Baader: Moon & SkyGlow, Contrast Booster, UHC-S, 6-color set; Astronomik: UHC.
Solar: HA: Lunt 50mm single stack, W/L: Meade Herschel wedge.

Observing: DSOs: 3122 (Completed: Messier, Herschel 1, 2, 3. In progress: H2,500: 2196, S110: 77). Doubles: 2461, Comets: 34, Asteroids: 261
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Re: Expensive lesson with Baader BBHS mirror diagonal

#7

Post by StarHugger »

It is then one or the other at fault baader vs ziess 😆 Or the third and most unpredictable component, the human one...

Alot at play as is the usual.
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Re: Expensive lesson with Baader BBHS mirror diagonal

#8

Post by Lady Fraktor »

Very strange…
The silver coating has a dielectric coating on top to prevent oxidization of the silver so hard to think of something that would go thorough that.
I would remove the mirror completely and wash it like a Newtonian mirror, there is detail showing through the smudges so may just be a smear of something now.
Have you checked the telescope or eyepieces interior for something living in them?
You do go to areas with a lot of crawling things :)
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Re: Expensive lesson with Baader BBHS mirror diagonal

#9

Post by Lady Fraktor »

Have you heard anything from Baader yet?
Being in american you could also try Alpine Astronomical since they are the Baader distributor and service centre for years now.
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Re: Expensive lesson with Baader BBHS mirror diagonal

#10

Post by Bigzmey »

Lady Fraktor wrote: Fri May 17, 2024 6:39 pm Have you heard anything from Baader yet?
Being in american you could also try Alpine Astronomical since they are the Baader distributor and service centre for years now.
Hi Gabby, not yet. They did confirmed receiving of my email, though. I have also sent request to Alpine Astronomical, thanks for reminding me about them.

Looking at the damage I am quite sure that the silver got striped. The remaining reflectivity is just the glass, like when you look at your reflection in the window glass.

Now I am thinking that maybe there was a hidden manufacturing defect and the clear droplets I saw was delamination (bubbling of one of the layers).
Scopes: Stellarvue: SV102ED; Celestron: 9.25" EdgeHD, 8" SCT, 150ST, Onyx 80ED; iOptron: Hankmeister 6" Mak; SW: 7" Mak; Meade: 80ST.
Mounts: SW: SkyTee2, AzGTi; iOptron: AZMP; ES: Twilight I; Bresser: EXOS2; UA: MicroStar.
Binos: APM: 100-90 APO; Canon: IS 15x50; Orion: Binoviewer, LG II 15x70, WV 10x50, Nikon: AE 16x50, 10x50, 8x40.
EPs: Pentax: XWs & XFs; TeleVue: Delites, Delos, Panoptic & Plossls; ES: 68, 62; Vixen: SLVs; Baader: BCOs, Aspherics, Mark IV.
Diagonals: Baader: BBHS mirror, Zeiss Spec T2 prism, Clicklock dielectric; TeleVue: Evebrite dielectric; AltairAstro: 2" prism.
Filters: Lumicon: DeepSky, UHC, OIII, H-beta; Baader: Moon & SkyGlow, Contrast Booster, UHC-S, 6-color set; Astronomik: UHC.
Solar: HA: Lunt 50mm single stack, W/L: Meade Herschel wedge.

Observing: DSOs: 3122 (Completed: Messier, Herschel 1, 2, 3. In progress: H2,500: 2196, S110: 77). Doubles: 2461, Comets: 34, Asteroids: 261
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Re: Expensive lesson with Baader BBHS mirror diagonal

#11

Post by Bigzmey »

Good news! I got reply from Alpine Astro. They do provide mirror replacement service for $190 plus shipping and taxes. Just waiting for them to finalize the service order.
Scopes: Stellarvue: SV102ED; Celestron: 9.25" EdgeHD, 8" SCT, 150ST, Onyx 80ED; iOptron: Hankmeister 6" Mak; SW: 7" Mak; Meade: 80ST.
Mounts: SW: SkyTee2, AzGTi; iOptron: AZMP; ES: Twilight I; Bresser: EXOS2; UA: MicroStar.
Binos: APM: 100-90 APO; Canon: IS 15x50; Orion: Binoviewer, LG II 15x70, WV 10x50, Nikon: AE 16x50, 10x50, 8x40.
EPs: Pentax: XWs & XFs; TeleVue: Delites, Delos, Panoptic & Plossls; ES: 68, 62; Vixen: SLVs; Baader: BCOs, Aspherics, Mark IV.
Diagonals: Baader: BBHS mirror, Zeiss Spec T2 prism, Clicklock dielectric; TeleVue: Evebrite dielectric; AltairAstro: 2" prism.
Filters: Lumicon: DeepSky, UHC, OIII, H-beta; Baader: Moon & SkyGlow, Contrast Booster, UHC-S, 6-color set; Astronomik: UHC.
Solar: HA: Lunt 50mm single stack, W/L: Meade Herschel wedge.

Observing: DSOs: 3122 (Completed: Messier, Herschel 1, 2, 3. In progress: H2,500: 2196, S110: 77). Doubles: 2461, Comets: 34, Asteroids: 261
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Re: Expensive lesson with Baader BBHS mirror diagonal

#12

Post by Lady Fraktor »

Excellent news, hopefully you will not have future issues!
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