Do I want a Laser Colminator ? yes , why not

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Do I want a Laser Colminator ? yes , why not

#1

Post by planecrazzzy »


.
Have you heard of good ones and bad ones.
I think they would help me do it faster and better.
.
Anybody use one ? Links are nice
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Re: Do I want a Laser Colminator ? yes , why not

#2

Post by Lady Fraktor »


Faster and better? Not really.

A laser can be a handy tool to check collimation but if you know how to use a chershire eyepiece and collimation cap
they are just as good/ fast and they do not require batteries :)
You will have to center spot your primary mirror to use the laser and a laser does not center your secondary so you will need a sight tube/ cheshire anyways.

A laser collimator is also handy for checking proper alignment of the focuser on a refractor.

PS: 99% of the time collimators arrive out of collimation, so you will have to collimate it first before using.
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Re: Do I want a Laser Colminator ? yes , why not

#3

Post by planecrazzzy »


I only have the cap with the hole
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Re: Do I want a Laser Colminator ? yes , why not

#4

Post by Lady Fraktor »


The collimation cap is a useful tool, that with a sight tube will do all of your collimation for you.

I am not discouraging purchasing a laser just pointing out the limitations of using one and that the collimation cap, sight tube/ cheshire do the job just as well.
Once set up a 2 second look with a collimation cap will tell yo if you are ready to go for the evenings viewing.

Tools like the Howie Glatter collimation tools are very good but then for the price you could buy another telescope.
That said I am guilty of this as I collimate my refractors with a collimating eyepiece and a Takahashi collimating telescope :lol:
See Far Sticks: Antares Elita 103/1575, AOM FLT 105/1000, Bresser BV 127/1200, Nočný stopár 152/1200, Vyrobené doma 70/700, Stellarvue NHNG DX 80/552, TAL RS100/1000, Vixen SD115s/885
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Re: Do I want a Laser Colminator ? yes , why not

#5

Post by SkyHiker »


I think most people with big reflectors use a laser collimator. I have a Howie Glatter. If you consider buying it, be aware that you need the Tublug too. The current price is about $540. I bought mine for less than $200 in 2015. I would personally not buy it for the current price. I never had to collimate it, and it is a joy to use. I would go for a cheap laser collimator that you need to collimate itself first, which is a one-time thing and not too difficult. The most critical thing is to get a snug fit so when you rotate the collimator in the focuser, the dot does not shift. I think many laser collimators can be made to work right if you collimate it and get the fit right. One important advantage is that you can check the collimation of the primary from behind the primary without having to go back and forth between eyepiece and primary.
... Henk. :D Telescopes: GSO 12" Astrograph, "Comet Hunter" MN152, ES ED127CF, ES ED80, WO Redcat51, Z12, AT6RC, Celestron Skymaster 20x80, Mounts and tripod: Losmandy G11S with OnStep, AVX, Tiltall, Cameras: ASI2600MC, ASI2600MM, ASI120 mini, Fuji X-a1, Canon XSi, T6, ELPH 100HS, DIY: OnStep controller, Pi4b/power rig, Afocal adapter, Foldable Dob base, Az/Alt Dob setting circles, Accessories: ZWO 36 mm filter wheel, TV Paracorr 2, Baader MPCC Mk III, ES FF, SSAG, QHY OAG-M, EAF electronic focuser, Plossls, Barlows, Telrad, Laser collimators (Seben LK1, Z12, Howie Glatter), Cheshire, 2 Orion RACIs 8x50, Software: KStars-Ekos, DSS, PHD2, Nebulosity, Photo Gallery, Gimp, CHDK, Computers:Pi4b, 2x running KStars/Ekos, Toshiba Satellite 17", Website:Henk's astro images
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Re: Do I want a Laser Colminator ? yes , why not

#6

Post by Big_Eight »


I have a Farpoint laser for collimation. The laser came collimated out of the box and has a very good fit in my focuser. Howie Glatter is the standard but I don't think Farpoint is that far off in quality.

I have a good reason to have one when it's dark (you arrived late to the dark site down that long dirt road) and you need to do a quick collimation check during setup.
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Re: Do I want a Laser Colminator ? yes , why not

#7

Post by kt4hx »


Generally speaking the higher end laser collimators arrive in proper collimation and hold it well unless you truly abuse them. The Howie Glatter that Henk mentions is considered the top end of the scale. But they are truly pricey if bought new. That is where the used market (Astromart, Cloudy Nights and our own classifieds) come into play. You can save some money on equipment. Of course there is always the thing about the used market and having to deal with an individual you do not know. But you can usually get a good feel for the person by communicating with them and checking their ratings on the specific site.

As for checking collimation, I recommend it each time you deploy your reflector. Little bumps while setting up and tearing down might shift it slightly. Checking it each time generally means there is a very minor adjustment as compared to not doing it for months at a time.

I do use a laser with my dobs to double check my self, but I also have a sight tube that I employ from time to time. The thing with collimation is about getting a feel for the process and becoming comfortable with it.

Here are some various links for you that hopefully will be useful:


https://garyseronik.com/a-beginners-gui ... llimation/

https://garyseronik.com/collimation-too ... -you-dont/

https://www.astro-baby.com/astrobaby/he ... reflector/

https://www.starlightinstruments.com/pr ... olimation/

https://farpointastro.com/collections/c ... lability=1

http://www.hotechusa.com/category-s/21.htm

https://www.telescope.com/Orion/Orion-T ... ollimation

https://www.telescope.com/Orion/Orion-L ... ollimation
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Re: Do I want a Laser Colminator ? yes , why not

#8

Post by davesellars »


I would say if you're starting out, just use a Cheshire - it comes already auto-collimated... ;) As long as your secondary is well collimated already it takes all of a minute to get the collimation very close to centre with a Cheshire.
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Re: Do I want a Laser Colminator ? yes , why not

#9

Post by planecrazzzy »


More like a cheap one.... I get lost without links...
Here's one to what I mean...
.https://www.telescope.com/Orion/Orion-L ... collimator
.
Most like it are less than $100 bucks
.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUobqWr8qOY
.
If they are junk I'm sure they could be returned.
But if it was close , the collimator cap would get closer ?
The guy made it look easy in the video.
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Re: Do I want a Laser Colminator ? yes , why not

#10

Post by planecrazzzy »


davesellars wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:59 pm I would say if you're starting out, just use a Cheshire - it comes already auto-collimated... ;) As long as your secondary is well collimated already it takes all of a minute to get the collimation very close to centre with a Cheshire.
Got a Link for that ?,

Someone else posted one I saw for around $160 ... I'll see if I can go back and find it.
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Re: Do I want a Laser Colminator ? yes , why not

#11

Post by davesellars »


planecrazzzy wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:40 pm
davesellars wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:59 pm I would say if you're starting out, just use a Cheshire - it comes already auto-collimated... ;) As long as your secondary is well collimated already it takes all of a minute to get the collimation very close to centre with a Cheshire.
Got a Link for that ?,

Someone else posted one I saw for around $160 ... I'll see if I can go back and find it.
.
Gotta Fly
$160 for a Cheshire? I use this... https://www.firstlightoptics.com/other- ... piece.html
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Re: Do I want a Laser Colminator ? yes , why not

#12

Post by planecrazzzy »


Thanks guys,
From what I'm researching...I want both a laser , for quick set-up , and a Cheshire for better accuracy.
What I like about the laser is adjusting the primary mirror without going back and forth...
.
Buying both won't break the bank.
Glad to read about the Cheshire , I never heard of them before.
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Re: Do I want a Laser Colminator ? yes , why not

#13

Post by SkyHiker »


planecrazzzy wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 8:14 am Thanks guys,
From what I'm researching...I want both a laser , for quick set-up , and a Cheshire for better accuracy.
What I like about the laser is adjusting the primary mirror without going back and forth...
.
Buying both won't break the bank.
Glad to read about the Cheshire , I never heard of them before.
.
Gotta Fly...
.
Cheshires are mostly used by visual observers. You have to be aware of the collimation wars and the Cheshire vs Laser religions.

I don't know of any proof that a Cheshire is more accurate than a laser. The basic argument is that a laser doubles any errors in the secondary alignment towards the primary alignment because the laser has to bounce off the secondary to get to the primary. That means that if there is negligible error in the secondary (laser inside the donut) then the primary will not suffer any additional error. To be sure you can Barlow the laser (the Howie Glatter has it built into the Tublug). It projects a blurry light blob on the donut, so it starts acting like its own light source. But even if you did not, a laser uses a full beam length to collimate the secondary (laser dot in the donut) whereas a Cheshire has some blurry crosshairs, the thickness of which may project a much larger error area over that same beam distance. It may look accurate to the eye, but I think the laser wins here. I have to see the math before I believe that a Cheshire is more accurate, and I am not aware of any math on this. So as far as I'm concerned that is just a myth.

If you read the Gary Seronik link above, that is a good read but confusing too because nobody collimates like that. However, Gary has great insight and he figured out a 3-step method to collimate using just a collimation cap. The secondary is collimated just be maximizing the projection of the primary in the secondary in step 2. Namely, in the end, collimating the secondary is about how the reflected light is distributed in intensity. It has nothing to do with accuracy because that is done by the primary collimation - make sure that the optical axis goes through the center of the eyepiece and the center of the mirror, which can be done by a collimation cap. In that sense collimating the primary is much more important than the secondary and collimating the secondary accurately enough comes down to the level of eyeballing. Gary is the only reference I know who discusses it like that. It is a good thing to be aware of.

Another great article to be aware of is Don Pensack's article. It has great pictures of hot the geometry affects the collimation. It also discusses offset secondaries vs. non-offset ones. Focus on the first 1/3 of the article.

Be aware that eyeballing how well a circular area (mirror/reflection) fills another one (focuser hole), depends on the distance of the eye towards the center of the tube. This is important when moving the secondary along the optical axis. Probably best to place your retina where the focal plane will be (how?). This may sound abstract, but it is an issue for AP with my Mak-Newt that has a rather small secondary.

The Cheshire is handy to carry around, the laser may be mor finicky depending on what you get but is generally easier and more fun to use. One case where the Cheshire wins is when the collimation is so far off that the laser reflection misses the secondary on the way back. In that case a Cheshire will work, and the laser will not.

There are cross-hair-less Cheshires that you should avoid. I have one, it is useful but it won't let you collimate the secondary. It may or may not be combined with a sight tube that you can use to make eyeballing easier.

Don't spend a fortune on it - spending over 0.5K on a laser collimator makes no sense, it is much better spent on other areas. Like I said, Gary Seronik collimates both secondary and primary with a collimation cap and a clever trick. Which you have already.
... Henk. :D Telescopes: GSO 12" Astrograph, "Comet Hunter" MN152, ES ED127CF, ES ED80, WO Redcat51, Z12, AT6RC, Celestron Skymaster 20x80, Mounts and tripod: Losmandy G11S with OnStep, AVX, Tiltall, Cameras: ASI2600MC, ASI2600MM, ASI120 mini, Fuji X-a1, Canon XSi, T6, ELPH 100HS, DIY: OnStep controller, Pi4b/power rig, Afocal adapter, Foldable Dob base, Az/Alt Dob setting circles, Accessories: ZWO 36 mm filter wheel, TV Paracorr 2, Baader MPCC Mk III, ES FF, SSAG, QHY OAG-M, EAF electronic focuser, Plossls, Barlows, Telrad, Laser collimators (Seben LK1, Z12, Howie Glatter), Cheshire, 2 Orion RACIs 8x50, Software: KStars-Ekos, DSS, PHD2, Nebulosity, Photo Gallery, Gimp, CHDK, Computers:Pi4b, 2x running KStars/Ekos, Toshiba Satellite 17", Website:Henk's astro images
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Re: Do I want a Laser Colminator ? yes , why not

#14

Post by planecrazzzy »


So I would have three cross checks , Cap , Laser , Cheshire .
Only one needs batteries.
.
I already put a laser and Cheshire in the amazon cart.
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PS Thanks for the links
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Re: Do I want a Laser Colminator ? yes , why not

#15

Post by SkyHiker »


The Cheshire can double as a collimation cap. A collimation cap is just the smallest possible device so it's handy.

I have to rephrase what I said earlier that the secondary alignment is only about the light distribution. That is not entirely true, of the secondary is off the optical axis of the primary will enter the eyepiece at a slight angle. But it is correlated with the light distribution, and you can use that principle to align the secondary to some level of accuracy cf. that link.
... Henk. :D Telescopes: GSO 12" Astrograph, "Comet Hunter" MN152, ES ED127CF, ES ED80, WO Redcat51, Z12, AT6RC, Celestron Skymaster 20x80, Mounts and tripod: Losmandy G11S with OnStep, AVX, Tiltall, Cameras: ASI2600MC, ASI2600MM, ASI120 mini, Fuji X-a1, Canon XSi, T6, ELPH 100HS, DIY: OnStep controller, Pi4b/power rig, Afocal adapter, Foldable Dob base, Az/Alt Dob setting circles, Accessories: ZWO 36 mm filter wheel, TV Paracorr 2, Baader MPCC Mk III, ES FF, SSAG, QHY OAG-M, EAF electronic focuser, Plossls, Barlows, Telrad, Laser collimators (Seben LK1, Z12, Howie Glatter), Cheshire, 2 Orion RACIs 8x50, Software: KStars-Ekos, DSS, PHD2, Nebulosity, Photo Gallery, Gimp, CHDK, Computers:Pi4b, 2x running KStars/Ekos, Toshiba Satellite 17", Website:Henk's astro images
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Re: Do I want a Laser Colminator ? yes , why not

#16

Post by planecrazzzy »


.
I finally bought the stuff accumulating in my amazon cart.
.
Since I'm not sure what I want , I check the items for free returns.
.
I'm sending the Laser back...it's more of a cat toy because it STILL needs fine tuning by site.
.
On the other hand ,
Celestron Collimation Eyepiece 1.25" was working good , and without batteries.
.
I waited collimating my 6" Newtonian until my Thumb screws for the secondary mirror came ( Amazon cart )
.
Then I collminated it manually...Checking it with the laser ...it's a fuzzy area...
.
So you would use a laser to get it close , and then fine tune that ?
.
I was surprised when I checked my 10" DOB collimation... it was good !

All I've ever used on that was the cheap cap with a hole in it.

Obviously , that cheap cap works pretty good . ( more accurate than the laser I used by Svony )
.
Going back and re reading the replies helped... Thanks to all that responded.
.
:Astronomer1:
.
PS The Svony laser adjustment / alienment / calibration screws had goop poured into them as if "Don't Touch"
Some members talked about colminating the colminator... ( Calibrating )
.
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Re: Do I want a Laser Colminator ? yes , why not

#17

Post by Lady Fraktor »


Typically the laser will need to be collimated unless it is something like the Howie Glatter variety. In other words, very expensive!
The collimation cap and a sight tube are amazingly simple and work very well.

Have fun with the telescopes. :)
See Far Sticks: Antares Elita 103/1575, AOM FLT 105/1000, Bresser BV 127/1200, Nočný stopár 152/1200, Vyrobené doma 70/700, Stellarvue NHNG DX 80/552, TAL RS100/1000, Vixen SD115s/885
EQ: TAL MT-1, Vixen SXP, AXJ, AXD
Az/Alt: AYO Digi II/ Argo Navis, Stellarvue M2C/ Argo Navis
Tripods: Berlebach Planet (2), Uni 28 Astro, Report 372, TAL factory maple, Vixen ASG-CB90, Vixen AXD-TR102
Diagonals: Astro-Physics, Baader Amici, Baader Herschel, iStar Blue, Stellarvue DX, Takahashi prism, TAL, Vixen flip mirror
Eyepieces: Antares to Zeiss
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