102 mm Refractor versus 140 mm Maksutov; Vixen ED102 vs OMC140

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102 mm Refractor versus 140 mm Maksutov; Vixen ED102 vs OMC140

#1

Post by John Baars »

102 mm Refractor versus 140 mm Maksutov; Vixen ED102 vs OMC140
by John Baars

102mm refractor versus 140mm Maksutov Vixen ED102S vs. OMC140 Preface Some years ago I bought an older Japanese Vixen ED 102 f / 9 refractor from the Nineties. Reason: I wanted to get rid of the long cooling time of my OMC Maksutov, but at least retain the image quality of the Maksutov. Preferably with...
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Telescopes in Schiedam : SW 150mm Achromat F/5, SW Evostar 120ED F/7.5, Vixen 102ED F/9, OMC140 Maksutov F/14.3, SW 102 Maksutov F/13 on Vixen GPDX.
Eyepieces: Kitakaru, Eudiascopic, Panoptic, Morpheus, Nagler, Leica ASPH zoom, CZJena, Brandon, Parks, Fujiyama, Pentax XO5 and XO2.5 .
Binoculars: Kasai 2.3X40, AusJena 10X50 Jenoptem, Swarovski Habicht 7X42, Celestron Skymaster 15X70, Swift Observation 20X80.

Rijswijk Observatory Foundation telescopes: Astro-Physics Starfire 130 f/8 on NEQ6, 6 inch Newton on GP, C8 on NEQ6, Meade 14 inch SCT on EQ8, Lunt.

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Re: 102 mm Refractor versus 140 mm Maksutov; Vixen ED102 vs OMC140

#2

Post by notFritzArgelander »

Fine article and well illustrated. The conclusions are about what I would expect based on optical science. Also a nice job demonstrating (among other things) that Maksutovs are good on DSOs.

One point of clarification, although Rutten may have designed this scope, it is not a Rutten-Maksutov Mak if it has a silvered spot secondary on the back of the corrector plate. That is a Gregory-Maksutov. The Rutten-Maksutov has a separately curved secondary which gives an additional degree of freedom for the optical design. Your photo indicates one can see the secondary spot on the corrector, so if I'm interpreting the situation correctly it is a Rutten designed Gregory-Maksutov, likely.
Last edited by notFritzArgelander on Sun Jan 26, 2020 10:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Scopes: Refs: Orion ST80, SV 80EDA f7, TS 102ED f11 Newts: Z12 f5; Cats: VMC110L, Intes MK66,VMC200L f9.75 EPs: KK Fujiyama Orthoscopics, 2x Vixen NPLs (40-6mm) and BCOs, Baader Mark IV zooms, TV Panoptics, Delos, Plossl 32-8mm. Mixed brand Masuyama/Astroplans Binoculars: Nikon Aculon 10x50, Celestron 15x70, Baader Maxbright. Mounts: Star Seeker III, Vixen Porta II, Celestron CG5, Orion Sirius EQG
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Re: 102 mm Refractor versus 140 mm Maksutov; Vixen ED102 vs OMC140

#3

Post by Lady Fraktor »

A great article John, thank you for putting this together.
Proper Telescopes: Antares 105 f/15, Bresser 102 f/13.2, Celestron 150 f/8, Stellarvue NHNGDX 80 f/6.9, TAL 100RS f/10, TS 102 f/11, UR 70 f/10, Vixen ED115s f/7.7
Mounts: Berlebach Planet w/ 410mm pier, Celestron AS-GT, Celestron CG-5 w/ Argo Navis & tracking motor, SLT w/ 250mm pier & tripod mods, Manfrotto 028b w/ SV M2C, Mantrotto 055Pro w/ 128RC, Skywatcher EQ-5 w/ dual drives, TAL MT1C w/ wood tripod, Vixen SXP w/ HAL-130 & 200mm half pier
Diagonal: 2" A-P Maxbright, 2" Baader Herschel Wedge (P), 2" Zeiss/ Baader Amici Prism (DX2), 2" Long Perng Amici Prism, 2" Stellarvue DX, 2" TeleVue EverBrite
Eyepieces: Antares to Zeiss
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Re: 102 mm Refractor versus 140 mm Maksutov; Vixen ED102 vs OMC140

#4

Post by notFritzArgelander »

notFritzArgelander wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 10:08 pm
Fine article and well illustrated. The conclusions are about what I would expect based on optical science. Also a nice job demonstrating (among other things) that Maksutovs are good on DSOs.

One point of clarification, although Rutten may have designed this scope, it is not a Rutten-Maksutov Mak if it has a silvered spot secondary on the back of the corrector plate. That is a Gregory-Maksutov. The Rutten-Maksutov has a separately curved secondary which gives an additional degree of freedom for the optical design. Your photo indicates one can see the secondary spot on the corrector, so if I'm interpreting the situation correctly it is a Rutten designed Gregory-Maksutov, likely.
It belatedly occurs to me that if the silvered secondary were a meniscus cemented to the back of the corrector then it could be a Rutten designed Rutten Maksutov. Would it be possible to check and see if the reflective coating were on the corrector directly or with and intervening meniscus? Thanks.

PS There is a review on another site that says that while the layout is Gregory-Maksutov, one of the surfaces is aspheric. So I'm curious.
Scopes: Refs: Orion ST80, SV 80EDA f7, TS 102ED f11 Newts: Z12 f5; Cats: VMC110L, Intes MK66,VMC200L f9.75 EPs: KK Fujiyama Orthoscopics, 2x Vixen NPLs (40-6mm) and BCOs, Baader Mark IV zooms, TV Panoptics, Delos, Plossl 32-8mm. Mixed brand Masuyama/Astroplans Binoculars: Nikon Aculon 10x50, Celestron 15x70, Baader Maxbright. Mounts: Star Seeker III, Vixen Porta II, Celestron CG5, Orion Sirius EQG
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Re: 102 mm Refractor versus 140 mm Maksutov; Vixen ED102 vs OMC140

#5

Post by Bigzmey »

Thanks for a thorough and well executed review John! Your experience matches mine closely. For me it was 80mm ED vs 127mm Mak. The Mak felt darker than it should on DSOs. Jupiter view was sharper in 80mm, but Mak resolved more details at the moments of better seeing.
Scopes: Stellarvue: SV102 ED F7; Celestron: 9.25" EdgeHD F10, 8" SCT F10, 6" SCT F10, Omni XLT 150R Achro F5, Onyx 80ED F6.3; Meade: 80ST Achro F5.
Mounts: ES: Twilight I; Bresser: EXOS2; SW: SkyTee2, AzGTi; UA: MicroStar.
Binos: Orion: Little Giant II 15x70, WorldView 10x50, Nikon: Action EX 16x50 & 8x40.
EPs: Pentax: XWs & XFs; TeleVue: Delites, Panoptic & Plossls; ES: 68s; Vixen: SLVs; Baader: BCOs, Aspherics, Mark IV; Russell Optics: SuperPlossls.
Diagonals: Baader: BBHS silver mirror, Zeiss Spec T2 prism, Clicklock dielectric; TeleVue: Evebrite dielectric; AltairAstro: Positive lock prism.
Filters: Lumicon: DeepSky, UHC, OIII, H-beta; Baader: Moon & SkyGlow, Contrast Booster, UHC-S; Astronomik: UHC, Orion: UltraBlock, SkyGlow.
Observing: DSOs: 2005 (Completed: Messier, Herschel 1, 2, 3. In progress: H2,500: 1565, S110: 77). Doubles: 1382, Comets: 18, Asteroids: 88
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Re: 102 mm Refractor versus 140 mm Maksutov; Vixen ED102 vs OMC140

#6

Post by Lady Fraktor »

From Orion Optics UK page:
The design is not a standard all spherical one with a main mirror the same size as the corrector. That is the traditional Maksutov design but, it lacks off axis performance and suffers from coma. The OMC140 has an ellipsoidal primary which is over 12mm larger in diameter than the Maksutov corrector. This added aspherisation of the primary allows much wider flatter fields to be achieved but it virtually eliminates coma.

https://www.orionoptics.co.uk/OMC/omc140maksutovca.html
Proper Telescopes: Antares 105 f/15, Bresser 102 f/13.2, Celestron 150 f/8, Stellarvue NHNGDX 80 f/6.9, TAL 100RS f/10, TS 102 f/11, UR 70 f/10, Vixen ED115s f/7.7
Mounts: Berlebach Planet w/ 410mm pier, Celestron AS-GT, Celestron CG-5 w/ Argo Navis & tracking motor, SLT w/ 250mm pier & tripod mods, Manfrotto 028b w/ SV M2C, Mantrotto 055Pro w/ 128RC, Skywatcher EQ-5 w/ dual drives, TAL MT1C w/ wood tripod, Vixen SXP w/ HAL-130 & 200mm half pier
Diagonal: 2" A-P Maxbright, 2" Baader Herschel Wedge (P), 2" Zeiss/ Baader Amici Prism (DX2), 2" Long Perng Amici Prism, 2" Stellarvue DX, 2" TeleVue EverBrite
Eyepieces: Antares to Zeiss
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Re: 102 mm Refractor versus 140 mm Maksutov; Vixen ED102 vs OMC140

#7

Post by notFritzArgelander »

Lady Fraktor wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:40 am
From Orion Optics UK page:
The design is not a standard all spherical one with a main mirror the same size as the corrector. That is the traditional Maksutov design but, it lacks off axis performance and suffers from coma. The OMC140 has an ellipsoidal primary which is over 12mm larger in diameter than the Maksutov corrector. This added aspherisation of the primary allows much wider flatter fields to be achieved but it virtually eliminates coma.

https://www.orionoptics.co.uk/OMC/omc140maksutovca.html
Thanks. I dyslexically missed that. It is then neither Gregory-Maksutov nor Rutten-Maksutov both of which have all spherical surfaces but is rather a unique and proprietary design based on a Gregory-Maksutov layout. Thanks again!
Scopes: Refs: Orion ST80, SV 80EDA f7, TS 102ED f11 Newts: Z12 f5; Cats: VMC110L, Intes MK66,VMC200L f9.75 EPs: KK Fujiyama Orthoscopics, 2x Vixen NPLs (40-6mm) and BCOs, Baader Mark IV zooms, TV Panoptics, Delos, Plossl 32-8mm. Mixed brand Masuyama/Astroplans Binoculars: Nikon Aculon 10x50, Celestron 15x70, Baader Maxbright. Mounts: Star Seeker III, Vixen Porta II, Celestron CG5, Orion Sirius EQG
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Re: 102 mm Refractor versus 140 mm Maksutov; Vixen ED102 vs OMC140

#8

Post by John Baars »

H. Rutten designed the optics as far as I know, including the ellipsoidal primary.
But there is more, he also designed the baffle system, which has some 15 mini-baffles within the main central baffle.
The famous Wolfgang Rohr ( at least he is well known all over Europe) tested an OMC140:
http://r2.astro-foren.com/index.php/de/ ... tografisch
Here one can read the following:
The OMC140 has an ellipsoidal mirror which is over 12mm larger in diameter than the Maksutov corrector. This added aspherisation of the primary allows much wider flatter fields to be achieved, but it virtually eliminates coma.
Furthermore one can see an intersection of the baffle in the link.
Telescopes in Schiedam : SW 150mm Achromat F/5, SW Evostar 120ED F/7.5, Vixen 102ED F/9, OMC140 Maksutov F/14.3, SW 102 Maksutov F/13 on Vixen GPDX.
Eyepieces: Kitakaru, Eudiascopic, Panoptic, Morpheus, Nagler, Leica ASPH zoom, CZJena, Brandon, Parks, Fujiyama, Pentax XO5 and XO2.5 .
Binoculars: Kasai 2.3X40, AusJena 10X50 Jenoptem, Swarovski Habicht 7X42, Celestron Skymaster 15X70, Swift Observation 20X80.

Rijswijk Observatory Foundation telescopes: Astro-Physics Starfire 130 f/8 on NEQ6, 6 inch Newton on GP, C8 on NEQ6, Meade 14 inch SCT on EQ8, Lunt.

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Re: 102 mm Refractor versus 140 mm Maksutov; Vixen ED102 vs OMC140

#9

Post by notFritzArgelander »

John Baars wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 8:12 am
H. Rutten designed the optics as far as I know, including the ellipsoidal primary.
But there is more, he also designed the baffle system, which has some 15 mini-baffles within the main central baffle.
The famous Wolfgang Rohr ( at least he is well known all over Europe) tested an OMC140:
http://r2.astro-foren.com/index.php/de/ ... tografisch
Here one can read the following:
The OMC140 has an ellipsoidal mirror which is over 12mm larger in diameter than the Maksutov corrector. This added aspherisation of the primary allows much wider flatter fields to be achieved, but it virtually eliminates coma.
Furthermore one can see an intersection of the baffle in the link.
Fine, well, and very good. Not arguing that Rutten didn't design the OMC140. I'm simply clarifying that the OMC140 is not a Rutten-Maksutov. One can see from the linked diagrams that the OMC140 is laid out as a Gregory-Maksutov. It doesn't have a secondary separate from the corrector as the diagram in your link shows. The separate secondary design as in Lourdes linked diagram (originally from Rutten's book) is what makes a Rutten-Maksutov what it is.

Rutten's idea of an aspheric ellipse ideal oversize primary is quite ingenious and it is very nicely baffled indeed. Rohr's test data are quite impressive. I compared them with the theoretical data in Rutten's book and it looks excellent.

I'm simply hoping that folks don't confuse this apparently Rutten designed aspheric Gregory-Maksutov system with a Rumak-Maksutov.
Scopes: Refs: Orion ST80, SV 80EDA f7, TS 102ED f11 Newts: Z12 f5; Cats: VMC110L, Intes MK66,VMC200L f9.75 EPs: KK Fujiyama Orthoscopics, 2x Vixen NPLs (40-6mm) and BCOs, Baader Mark IV zooms, TV Panoptics, Delos, Plossl 32-8mm. Mixed brand Masuyama/Astroplans Binoculars: Nikon Aculon 10x50, Celestron 15x70, Baader Maxbright. Mounts: Star Seeker III, Vixen Porta II, Celestron CG5, Orion Sirius EQG
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Re: 102 mm Refractor versus 140 mm Maksutov; Vixen ED102 vs OMC140

#10

Post by John Baars »

To notFritzArgelander:
I have changed the text in:
The OMC was designed by H. Rutten as an aspherical Gregory- Maksutov and is internally equipped with a sophisticated baffle system.
Just to be sure. :D
Telescopes in Schiedam : SW 150mm Achromat F/5, SW Evostar 120ED F/7.5, Vixen 102ED F/9, OMC140 Maksutov F/14.3, SW 102 Maksutov F/13 on Vixen GPDX.
Eyepieces: Kitakaru, Eudiascopic, Panoptic, Morpheus, Nagler, Leica ASPH zoom, CZJena, Brandon, Parks, Fujiyama, Pentax XO5 and XO2.5 .
Binoculars: Kasai 2.3X40, AusJena 10X50 Jenoptem, Swarovski Habicht 7X42, Celestron Skymaster 15X70, Swift Observation 20X80.

Rijswijk Observatory Foundation telescopes: Astro-Physics Starfire 130 f/8 on NEQ6, 6 inch Newton on GP, C8 on NEQ6, Meade 14 inch SCT on EQ8, Lunt.

Amateur since 1970.
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Re: 102 mm Refractor versus 140 mm Maksutov; Vixen ED102 vs OMC140

#11

Post by notFritzArgelander »

John Baars wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:38 pm
To notFritzArgelander:
I have changed the text in:
The OMC was designed by H. Rutten as an aspherical Gregory- Maksutov and is internally equipped with a sophisticated baffle system.
Just to be sure. :D
Well, that's certainly as precise as one can get! :)

I know that some folks have been confused by the advertising and have claimed it as something else. :)
Scopes: Refs: Orion ST80, SV 80EDA f7, TS 102ED f11 Newts: Z12 f5; Cats: VMC110L, Intes MK66,VMC200L f9.75 EPs: KK Fujiyama Orthoscopics, 2x Vixen NPLs (40-6mm) and BCOs, Baader Mark IV zooms, TV Panoptics, Delos, Plossl 32-8mm. Mixed brand Masuyama/Astroplans Binoculars: Nikon Aculon 10x50, Celestron 15x70, Baader Maxbright. Mounts: Star Seeker III, Vixen Porta II, Celestron CG5, Orion Sirius EQG
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Re: 102 mm Refractor versus 140 mm Maksutov; Vixen ED102 vs OMC140

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Post by Refractordude »

A nice review
Telescopes: Celestron 150mm f/8 Refractor, Meade LX70 120mm f/8 Refractor, Vixen 70mm f/12.9 Refractor, Tasco 49N 50mm Red Refractor
Binoculars: Zhumell 20x80 Giant, Oberwerk LW 11x70, Levenhuk Sherman 7x50
Mounts: Orion SkyView Pro Equatorial, Orion Versago II Altazimuth, Farpoint Universal Parrallogram Mount, Orion Tritech II Fluid Head Tripod
Finders: GSO 8x50 Raci, Svbony Red Dot
Diagonals: GSO Dielectric 2", GSO Dielectric 1.25"
Eyepieces: GSO Superview 30mm, Astromania-Olivon 22mm, GSO Plossls 32mm/25mm/20mm, GSO 20mm Superview, Svbony 20mm/15mm/9mm/6mm, Svbony Aspheric 23mm/10mm/4mm, Agena Super Wide Angle 15mm, Few No Name Brand Ebay Plossls
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Re: 102 mm Refractor versus 140 mm Maksutov; Vixen ED102 vs OMC140

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Post by j.gardavsky »

Hello John,

thank you for the report you have supported with your excellent sketches!

Best,
JG
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Re: 102 mm Refractor versus 140 mm Maksutov; Vixen ED102 vs OMC140

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Post by Ylem »

Thanks John, I enjoyed this.
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Re: 102 mm Refractor versus 140 mm Maksutov; Vixen ED102 vs OMC140

#15

Post by John999R »

Thank you for the fine review and comparison. The Celestron/Orion refractors made by Vixen years ago were outstanding instruments. My first scope was the base model Orion by Vixen 102. I believe the Orion/Celestron by Vixen 102mm series had three OTAs, my base model achromat that acted like an APO, the ED102 you reviewed, and the legendary 102 Flourite APO. All were doublets. I did compare my scope against the ES 152 and the 102 produced sharper stars. I couldn't get over how good this reasonably priced scope really was and I was not alone as I connected with other 102 owners at the time. I actually wanted to step up and buy the fluoride 102, but I just couldn't see paying what they were asking for them when there were many quality and affordable triplets coming on the market at that time. Your review was a nostalgic reminder of a great line up of refractors by Vixen.
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Re: 102 mm Refractor versus 140 mm Maksutov; Vixen ED102 vs OMC140

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Post by John Baars »

Hello John,
Nice to hear from you. Do you still have your Vixen?

I have been surprised too by the excellent performance of this refractor. And so did the optician (a very well known one in the Dutch astronomy society) who re-coated the frontlens for me. He told me never ever to get rid of it and if I did, I should call him...
I am the third owner, I am glad to hear from a first owner of that Vixen line. When these Vixens came out I was still busy scouring the Universe with ATM Newtons.

When Vixen (and other companies) started making the Fluorite doublet line, Fluorite was still a very scarce and expensive crystal. It became that popular that soon a shortage developed on the economic market. Vixen responded with the f/9 ED doublet refractor, made of less expensive glass. The f/9 was necessary to achieve almost the same CA as the Fluorite one. (CA in this f/9 is only seen at the edges of a defocussed star) Soon after newly made, less expensive extra low dispersion glasses like FPL-53 made it possible to construct f/7.5 ( doublet ) refractors again, without the use of the difficult to handle Fluorite. The triumphant decade of the f/9 ED doublets therefore soon came to an end.

Stil, even today it performs like heaven and it is nice to have a (neo)classical among my telescopes.
Telescopes in Schiedam : SW 150mm Achromat F/5, SW Evostar 120ED F/7.5, Vixen 102ED F/9, OMC140 Maksutov F/14.3, SW 102 Maksutov F/13 on Vixen GPDX.
Eyepieces: Kitakaru, Eudiascopic, Panoptic, Morpheus, Nagler, Leica ASPH zoom, CZJena, Brandon, Parks, Fujiyama, Pentax XO5 and XO2.5 .
Binoculars: Kasai 2.3X40, AusJena 10X50 Jenoptem, Swarovski Habicht 7X42, Celestron Skymaster 15X70, Swift Observation 20X80.

Rijswijk Observatory Foundation telescopes: Astro-Physics Starfire 130 f/8 on NEQ6, 6 inch Newton on GP, C8 on NEQ6, Meade 14 inch SCT on EQ8, Lunt.

Amateur since 1970.
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Re: 102 mm Refractor versus 140 mm Maksutov; Vixen ED102 vs OMC140

#17

Post by John999R »

Sorry, I didn't back to you sooner John, unfortunately, I no longer have the 102. It was another example of me selling something I regretted later, just like a couple of motorcycles I sold in the past. Just one of those life cycles, making room for something else, something bigger. As I mentioned, I managed to network with four or five base model Vixen/Orion OTAs and all of us were on the same page as far as how good this telescope was relative to its price and specs. It was in the pre-China era and most of us know Vixen makes fine doublets anyway. I recall one memorable night looking through the 102 at Mars. What blew me away was the fact the planetary surface contrast was good enough that I could make out the darker shapes of the "continents", the northern polar region was easy to spot, maybe it was the south, I forget. I was using a 6mm eyepiece.

Soon after I sold the Vixen I fell into the rabbit hole of trying to learn astrophotography. A combination of rewards and many frustrations. I'm still plugging away tho. Thanks for the bits of historical information regarding the series. I pay attention when anyone talks about any of the Orion or Celestron Vixen telescopes. I've bought and sold maybe five telescopes since then and none of them raise any interest like the 102 still does.
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Re: 102 mm Refractor versus 140 mm Maksutov; Vixen ED102 vs OMC140

#18

Post by DeanD »

Hi guys, I am super late on this one; but just a comment on the Vixen 102 f9. I had a Vixen 114ED which was stolen (long story), and I picked up a used 102 f9 as a partial replacement. It blew the 114 and my later Megrez 110 out of the water as a high power/planetary scope. Sadly I sold it along with the Megrez (not sad about that though) to help fund my TSA 102: and it even gave the Tak a run for its money. A lovely, and I think underrated scope!

- Dean
Telescopes: 12" f5 dob, Celestron CPC800, 150mmf5 Celestron achro, Tak TSA102, TV76, ETX125...
Binos: Tak 22x60, Swarovski 8x30 Habicht, FB 25x100, Orion Regulux 15x70...
Eyepieces: way too many (is that possible?), but I do like my TV 32mm plossl, 13mm Nagler T6, 27mm Panoptic and 3-6mm Nagler zoom, plus Fujiyama 18mm and 25mm orthos and Tak 7.5mm LE
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Re: 102 mm Refractor versus 140 mm Maksutov; Vixen ED102 vs OMC140

#19

Post by John Baars »

Thanks Dean for your comment!
I always wondered where the owners of the Vixen 102 f/9 were. Too busy enjoying their telescope I presume.
Luckily you and John 999R responded. I know it is a good scope, but it is always nice to hear the experience of other owners who are able to compare it to former or current scopes.
DeanD wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 11:49 am
it even gave the Tak a run for its money.
Haha, great to hear!
Telescopes in Schiedam : SW 150mm Achromat F/5, SW Evostar 120ED F/7.5, Vixen 102ED F/9, OMC140 Maksutov F/14.3, SW 102 Maksutov F/13 on Vixen GPDX.
Eyepieces: Kitakaru, Eudiascopic, Panoptic, Morpheus, Nagler, Leica ASPH zoom, CZJena, Brandon, Parks, Fujiyama, Pentax XO5 and XO2.5 .
Binoculars: Kasai 2.3X40, AusJena 10X50 Jenoptem, Swarovski Habicht 7X42, Celestron Skymaster 15X70, Swift Observation 20X80.

Rijswijk Observatory Foundation telescopes: Astro-Physics Starfire 130 f/8 on NEQ6, 6 inch Newton on GP, C8 on NEQ6, Meade 14 inch SCT on EQ8, Lunt.

Amateur since 1970.
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Re: 102 mm Refractor versus 140 mm Maksutov; Vixen ED102 vs OMC140

#20

Post by helicon »

Very helpful article John. Thanks (though I am a bit late to the party here).
-Michael
Various scopes, 10" Zhumell Dob, ES AR152, AWB 5.1" Onesky newt, Oberwerk 25x100 binos, two eyeballs
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