Every which way..

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Greenman Great Britain
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Every which way..

#1

Post by Greenman »


So, it is starting to dawn on me that there’s more to this deep sky stuff that meets the eye (pun intended). So many new terms, but I am getting my head around them.

At this point I want to pick my method of controlling the complex process. I see two choices for me, APT which I’ve used with my canon, or NINA. NINA seems to have the edge, on abilities, but I’m concerned about the learning curve. APT I have some experience with, but only with DSLR’s that are very different things from Pro level CMOS’s.

On planetary my go to was always SharpCap but I have found that flaky with the 533. The last clear night I got nicely aligned, and spot on ASPA using Sirius. Then slewed to the Great Orion Nebula, started off setting up a short sequence 3 x 30 secs and SC hung. Eventually I went to ASI Studio and I could live stack OK. But by this point my cold tolerance ran out and I packed away.

The decision was made, no more trials on cold nights. For once I would sit down, pick a software package that would plate solve, autoguide, sequence and image effectively. The question is which one.

What are the feelings on APT vs NINA for this I’m prepared to do the reading and configuration needed, but I’m interested in opinions between the two.

I know this is subjective, my feeling at the moment is that NINA is developing more rapidly, but it does pay APT the compliment of clearly trying to compete against its alternate.

For anyone who remembers the great American show Soap - “Confused? You will be...” :D
Cheers,

Tony.

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Smart Scope: Dwarf II - Club and outreach work.

AP Refractor: Altair 72EDF Deluxe F6;1x & 0.8 Flatteners; Antares Versascope 60mm finder. ASIAir Pro.Li battery pack for grab & go.

Celestron AVX Mount; X-cel LX eyepieces & Barlows 2x 3x, ZWO 2” Filter holder,

Cameras: main DSO ASI533MC; DSO guide ASI120MM; Planetary ASI224MC; DSLR Canon EOS100 stock.

Filters: Astronomik IR cut; Optolong L-Pro; Optolong L-Enhance.

Binoculars: Celestron 15 x 70.

Latitude: 52.219853
Longitude: -1.034471
Accuracy: 5 m
Bortle 4 site. https://maps.google.com/?q=52.21985,-1.03447

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Re: Every which way..

#2

Post by AstroBee »


Hi Tony,

I can tell you that I personally have been through the same journey you are on. I started with a Canon DSLR using BackyardEOS. There are many apps out there that are all good in their own right. I still use BackyardEOS when I'm using my DSLR. But I'll explain first why I switched to a dedicated CMOS astro cam, then explain the route I took with software. My biggest problem with the DSLR was that I live in a very, very warm (Downright HOT actually!) climate in the desert southwest U.S. and the ability to get clean images with a DSLR in long exposures was my limiting factor. Just think about shooting 5-minute exposures at ISO1600 when the ambient temps are over 100°f...
I decided on the ASI1600mm because I wanted the best possible image quality and decided to go the monochrome/filter route over a OSC camera.

When it came to software, I started out with SharpCapPro because at the time there were plenty of instructional videos online for it.
I have to admit, I still love and use SharpCap for its awesome Polar Alignment Routine and also any time we are doing our virtual star parties because of the handy LiveStacking feature. Also, for Lunar, Solar or Planetary, it is my program of choice.

But once I'm out in the field at a dark sky location and interested in capturing data for later processing NINA is now my go-to program of choice. I've only switched over to NINA about 3 months ago but I've put it through the test and it has so far worked flawlessly for me. And you can't beat the price! It's open-source so it's free and is being constantly updated with new features and improvements. Every program has a learning curve and NINA is no different but it's not any different than learning APT, BackyardEOS, SharpCap, SGP, PHD2...
I think another advantage that NINA has over SharpCap or APT is the number of people that are working on the software. SharpCap is Robin Glover's baby and he has done an amazing job but new features and bug fixes take a while because of the limited time he has to work on it. (I could be wrong, but I don't think SharpCap is open-source.) I'm not familiar with APT as I never went down that path.
With NINA, there is an abundance of training videos on YouTube from many different people, including some of those guys that are doing the actual code.

If you have any specific questions regarding gear or software, I'm happy to help as I'm sure many others are too.
Greg M.~ "Ad Astra per Aspera"
Scopes: Celestron EdgeHD14", Explore Scientific ED152CF & ED127 APO's, StellarVue SV70T, Classic Orange-Tube C-8, Lunt 80mm Ha double-stack solar scope.
Mounts: Astro-Physics Mach One, iOptron CEM70EC Mount, iOptron ZEQ25 Mount.
Cameras: ZWO ASI2600mm Pro, ZWO 2600MC Pro, ZWO ASI1600mm
Filters: 36mm Chroma LRGB & 3nm Ha, OIII, SII, L-Pro, L-eXtreme
Eyepieces: 27mm TeleVue Panoptic, 4mm TeleVue Radian, Explore Scientific 82° 30mm, 6.7mm , Baader 13mm Hyperion, Explore Scientific 70° 10mm, 15mm, 20mm, Meade 8.8mm UWA
Software: N.I.N.A., SharpCapPro, PixInsight, PhotoShop CC, Phd2, Stellarium
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Re: Every which way..

#3

Post by Graeme1858 »


Hello Tony

My choice is now NINA. I used APT with my DSLR and liked it. When I bought my ASI294MC I found that APT kept loosing connection to the camera which caused the cooler to switch off. In fear of hurting my new baby, I switched to NINA. It was a great switch! The learning curve is a bit steeper but it's much more controllable once you get used to it. The sky atlas and framing tool are easy to use and make multiple panels for mosaics easy. Plate solving is quicker and the Focusing routine is brilliant. The Flat frame wizard is really brilliant! The only thing it doesn't do is output a camera composition indication to Stellarium like APT does but the framing screen can do that if you know your camera rotation angle.

As Greg says, if you have any questions, ask away.

Regards

Graeme
______________________________________________
Celestron 9.25 f10 SCT, f6.3FR, CGX mount.
ASI1600MM Pro, ASI294MC Pro, ASI224MC
ZWO EFW, ZWO OAG, ASI220MM Mini.
APM 11x70 ED APO Binoculars.

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Re: Every which way..

#4

Post by Greenman »


Thanks Greg and Greame, that’s really good input. I have a longish weekend (Thursday thru’ Tuesday) and I hope to play with NINA and attempt setting up my scope & mount on NINA. It’s likely I will be asking some questions, so your offer of advice is most welcome.

Many thanks 😊
Cheers,

Tony.

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Smart Scope: Dwarf II - Club and outreach work.

AP Refractor: Altair 72EDF Deluxe F6;1x & 0.8 Flatteners; Antares Versascope 60mm finder. ASIAir Pro.Li battery pack for grab & go.

Celestron AVX Mount; X-cel LX eyepieces & Barlows 2x 3x, ZWO 2” Filter holder,

Cameras: main DSO ASI533MC; DSO guide ASI120MM; Planetary ASI224MC; DSLR Canon EOS100 stock.

Filters: Astronomik IR cut; Optolong L-Pro; Optolong L-Enhance.

Binoculars: Celestron 15 x 70.

Latitude: 52.219853
Longitude: -1.034471
Accuracy: 5 m
Bortle 4 site. https://maps.google.com/?q=52.21985,-1.03447

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Re: Every which way..

#5

Post by Juno16 »


Hi Tony,

Not to go against the grain, but personally, I enjoy APT. I have NINA loaded and have played around with it, but I am comfortable with everything in APT and have had great success with it so far.

The only thing that I wished for in APT was autofocus, and it is getting very close to being operational in APT with our member Steve333's help. @STEVE333 .

NINA looks like to be fantastic software, but I am not a big fan of Discord. Looking forward to (hopefully tomorrow night) trying out the APT autofocus beta version. Just my 2 cents.
Jim

Scopes: Explore Scientific ED102 APO, Sharpstar 61 EDPH II APO, Samyang 135 F2 (still on the Nikon).
Mount: Skywatcher HEQ5 Pro with Rowan Belt Mod
Stuff: ASI EAF Focus Motor (x2), Orion 50mm Guide Scope, ZWO 30 mm Guide Scope, ASI 220mm min, ASI 120mm mini, Stellarview 0.8 FR/FF, Sharpstar 0.8 FR/FF, Mele Overloock 3C.
Camera/Filters/Software: ASI 533 mc pro, ASI 120mm mini, Orion SSAG, IDAS LPS D-1, Optolong L-Enhance, ZWO UV/IR Cut, N.I.N.A., Green Swamp Server, PHD2, Adobe Photoshop CC, Pixinsight.
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Re: Every which way..

#6

Post by bobharmony »


Tony - +1 for APT, keeping in mind that I am still in the DSLR stage. I also started out with Backyard EOS, but did a quick bakeoff between APT and NINA when I decided I would someday go to a dedicated cam. NINA wasn't as friendly to DSLRs as it seems to be with Astrocams, and that was a factor for me. Like Jim, I am not comfortable with the Discord support model (I don't know about Jim, I suffer from old-guy syndrome :) ). Both will do what I need, which is a focusing tool, plate solving, framing, auto meridian flip, and script multiple targets in one session. They also both have mosaic features. I like the way APT interfaces with Cartes du Ciel, which I have been using for a long time.

I agree with you that trials on cold nights are bad. I take it a step further in that I try to treat every night out under the stars as an imaging session, not a test, so I try out as much stuff as possible during the day in the living room. If I drag the gear outside, I want to get something for it!

I know it's not much help, I'd suggest kicking the tires on both of them and see which fits you better. They are both capable and I suspect you'll be happy with either of them.

Bob
Hardware: Celestron C6-N w/ Advanced GTmount, Baader MK iii CC, Orion ST-80, Canon 60D (unmodded), Nikon D5300 (modded), Orion SSAG
Software: BYE, APT, PHD2, DSS, PhotoShop CC 2020, StarTools, Cartes du Ciel, AstroTortilla

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Re: Every which way..

#7

Post by Graeme1858 »


Juno16 wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 12:22 am NINA looks like to be fantastic software, but I am not a big fan of Discord. Looking forward to (hopefully tomorrow night) trying out the APT autofocus beta version. Just my 2 cents.

Yeah, the Discord thing is a pain, a bit like having a forum where everyone posts all their different issues in the same thread! The APT forum is good.

bobharmony wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:16 am They also both have mosaic features.

Didn't think APT could do that! Is it new? In NINA it's a doddle. I think that's the reason for my preference, once you learn where everything is in NINA it is easy to operate, it's quick (except maybe the framing!(probably my garage internet connection!)) and intuitive.

As Bob says, try both!

Regards

Graeme
______________________________________________
Celestron 9.25 f10 SCT, f6.3FR, CGX mount.
ASI1600MM Pro, ASI294MC Pro, ASI224MC
ZWO EFW, ZWO OAG, ASI220MM Mini.
APM 11x70 ED APO Binoculars.

https://www.averywayobservatory.co.uk/
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Re: Every which way..

#8

Post by Greenman »


Thanks for the counter argument Jim & Bob. I am a bit like the man with two brains on this one myself, it probably would be easier picking up APT, I do see it as more DSLR oriented. To be honest if I were tempted I would have gone for a more capable DSLR (the RA comes to mind). I’m going to take the NINA route and see how it goes. If the attraction of its geekiness proves to complex then APT. It will be.

Of course there is the ASIAIR Pro sitting in the wings... Expensive option, until I realise in four months my employer gets my laptop back and the iPad becomes an attractive option (as I already have it).

Decisions, don’t talk to me about decisions... :roll:

Thanks for the comments all.
Cheers,

Tony.

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Smart Scope: Dwarf II - Club and outreach work.

AP Refractor: Altair 72EDF Deluxe F6;1x & 0.8 Flatteners; Antares Versascope 60mm finder. ASIAir Pro.Li battery pack for grab & go.

Celestron AVX Mount; X-cel LX eyepieces & Barlows 2x 3x, ZWO 2” Filter holder,

Cameras: main DSO ASI533MC; DSO guide ASI120MM; Planetary ASI224MC; DSLR Canon EOS100 stock.

Filters: Astronomik IR cut; Optolong L-Pro; Optolong L-Enhance.

Binoculars: Celestron 15 x 70.

Latitude: 52.219853
Longitude: -1.034471
Accuracy: 5 m
Bortle 4 site. https://maps.google.com/?q=52.21985,-1.03447

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Re: Every which way..

#9

Post by Star Dad »


Thanks for this info guys. I am going to look into NINA. Never heard of it but at first glance it looks way more powerful than I need for now. I use Nebulosity for image capture except for planetary when I use the default ZWO software (video capture). But it looks like it might just fill some requirements I need. Can you tell me if it is capable of stopping imaging if clouds roll in and obscure the target? Can it auto meridian flip - and re-locate the target automagically? Or would I still need to flip it manually and then re-plate solve?
"To be good is not enough when you dream of being great"

Orion 203mm/f4.9/1000mm, converted TASCO 114mm/f9/1000mm to steam punk, Meade 114mm/f9/1000, Coronado PST, Orion EQ-G, Ioptron Mini-Tower and iEQ30, Canon 70D, ASI120MM,ASI294MC, Ioptron SkyHunter
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Re: Every which way..

#10

Post by Greenman »


It can meridian flip and carry on (as far as I have read). I doubt it has cloud sensing though. :D
Cheers,

Tony.

Image

Smart Scope: Dwarf II - Club and outreach work.

AP Refractor: Altair 72EDF Deluxe F6;1x & 0.8 Flatteners; Antares Versascope 60mm finder. ASIAir Pro.Li battery pack for grab & go.

Celestron AVX Mount; X-cel LX eyepieces & Barlows 2x 3x, ZWO 2” Filter holder,

Cameras: main DSO ASI533MC; DSO guide ASI120MM; Planetary ASI224MC; DSLR Canon EOS100 stock.

Filters: Astronomik IR cut; Optolong L-Pro; Optolong L-Enhance.

Binoculars: Celestron 15 x 70.

Latitude: 52.219853
Longitude: -1.034471
Accuracy: 5 m
Bortle 4 site. https://maps.google.com/?q=52.21985,-1.03447

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Re: Every which way..

#11

Post by JayTee »


For APT, don't forget that it is developed and maintained by our member @Yoddha. So if you have questions about APT you can PM him directly. It's a pretty nice feature about being a member of these forums.

Cheers,
JT
∞ Primary Scopes: #1: Celestron CPC1100 #2: 8" f/7.5 Dob #3: CR150HD f/8 6" frac
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∞ G&G Scopes: #1: Meade 102mm f/7.8 #2: Bresser 102mm f/4.5
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Re: Every which way..

#12

Post by Graeme1858 »


Greenman wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 6:31 pm It can meridian flip and carry on (as far as I have read). I doubt it has cloud sensing though. :D

PHD2 does the cloud sensing for you, it beeps like mad when the guide star is lost!
______________________________________________
Celestron 9.25 f10 SCT, f6.3FR, CGX mount.
ASI1600MM Pro, ASI294MC Pro, ASI224MC
ZWO EFW, ZWO OAG, ASI220MM Mini.
APM 11x70 ED APO Binoculars.

https://www.averywayobservatory.co.uk/
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Re: Every which way..

#13

Post by AstroBee »


Greenman wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 6:31 pm It can meridian flip and carry on (as far as I have read). I doubt it has cloud sensing though. :D
NINA handles the meridian flips flawlessly. As for cloud sensing, it does have the ability to integrate 3rd party weather monitoring hardware as well as dome control hardware and software.
Greg M.~ "Ad Astra per Aspera"
Scopes: Celestron EdgeHD14", Explore Scientific ED152CF & ED127 APO's, StellarVue SV70T, Classic Orange-Tube C-8, Lunt 80mm Ha double-stack solar scope.
Mounts: Astro-Physics Mach One, iOptron CEM70EC Mount, iOptron ZEQ25 Mount.
Cameras: ZWO ASI2600mm Pro, ZWO 2600MC Pro, ZWO ASI1600mm
Filters: 36mm Chroma LRGB & 3nm Ha, OIII, SII, L-Pro, L-eXtreme
Eyepieces: 27mm TeleVue Panoptic, 4mm TeleVue Radian, Explore Scientific 82° 30mm, 6.7mm , Baader 13mm Hyperion, Explore Scientific 70° 10mm, 15mm, 20mm, Meade 8.8mm UWA
Software: N.I.N.A., SharpCapPro, PixInsight, PhotoShop CC, Phd2, Stellarium
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Re: Every which way..

#14

Post by Star Dad »


I have another question about NINA - or focusing in general. Is there a method to MANUALLY achieve focus other than take a picture - check the photo for focus, turn the focuser take another picture , repeat until it *looks* good? Because of the price of a computer controlled focuser (Pegasus Astro FocusCube 2 with Universal Bracket - PEG-FC2-UNIV ) I am thinking about just getting a manually controlled motorized unit to attach to my focuser.
"To be good is not enough when you dream of being great"

Orion 203mm/f4.9/1000mm, converted TASCO 114mm/f9/1000mm to steam punk, Meade 114mm/f9/1000, Coronado PST, Orion EQ-G, Ioptron Mini-Tower and iEQ30, Canon 70D, ASI120MM,ASI294MC, Ioptron SkyHunter
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Re: Every which way..

#15

Post by AstroBee »


Star Dad wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 3:04 pm I have another question about NINA - or focusing in general. Is there a method to MANUALLY achieve focus other than take a picture - check the photo for focus, turn the focuser take another picture , repeat until it *looks* good? Because of the price of a computer controlled focuser (Pegasus Astro FocusCube 2 with Universal Bracket - PEG-FC2-UNIV ) I am thinking about just getting a manually controlled motorized unit to attach to my focuser.
I'm not 100% sure I understand what you mean by a manually controlled motorized focuser?
It's my understanding they are either manual or motorized?
Please elaborate on what you mean. If you are going to pay the money for a focuser with a motor, just get one that is ASCOM compliant so you can automate the process.
Otherwise, just go with a manual focuser and use a Bahtinov mask but there's no way around taking a pic, examining it, adjusting focus, taking another, etc, until focus is achieved. In fact, that's exactly what the autofocus routines in NINA or other programs do. They take a photo, measure a stars FWHM, adjust by a set increment and take another and do the measurements creating what's called a V Curve. The lowest point in the "V" is the perfect focus.
Greg M.~ "Ad Astra per Aspera"
Scopes: Celestron EdgeHD14", Explore Scientific ED152CF & ED127 APO's, StellarVue SV70T, Classic Orange-Tube C-8, Lunt 80mm Ha double-stack solar scope.
Mounts: Astro-Physics Mach One, iOptron CEM70EC Mount, iOptron ZEQ25 Mount.
Cameras: ZWO ASI2600mm Pro, ZWO 2600MC Pro, ZWO ASI1600mm
Filters: 36mm Chroma LRGB & 3nm Ha, OIII, SII, L-Pro, L-eXtreme
Eyepieces: 27mm TeleVue Panoptic, 4mm TeleVue Radian, Explore Scientific 82° 30mm, 6.7mm , Baader 13mm Hyperion, Explore Scientific 70° 10mm, 15mm, 20mm, Meade 8.8mm UWA
Software: N.I.N.A., SharpCapPro, PixInsight, PhotoShop CC, Phd2, Stellarium
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Re: Every which way..

#16

Post by Star Dad »


Orion has the https://www.telescope.com/Orion-AccuFoc ... /99333.uts . What I'm wondering is there some software (perhaps NINA?) that could give me the FWHM readout so I could use the Mark 1 Mod 0 eyeball instead of software to adjust the focus manually (using the AccuFocus). I am rather loathe to buy an auto-focus for two reasons: 1- cost and 2 - from what I've seen in my research so far I would have to physically disconnect the autofocuser when doing visual AP. The AccuFocus would allow me to use use it in the field (visual AP).

Right now I just use my eyeball and set the zoom on the image to 100% and then declare it in focus. Sometimes however, during pre-processing the next day or so I notice the stars are not dots but are in fact little badminton birdies kind of like < . And I would love to have a mathematical display of the FWHM rather than my guessing to guide me.
"To be good is not enough when you dream of being great"

Orion 203mm/f4.9/1000mm, converted TASCO 114mm/f9/1000mm to steam punk, Meade 114mm/f9/1000, Coronado PST, Orion EQ-G, Ioptron Mini-Tower and iEQ30, Canon 70D, ASI120MM,ASI294MC, Ioptron SkyHunter
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