this is what I see of orion nebula in my telescope. is this what I should expect?

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Re: this is what I see of orion nebula in my telescope. is this what I should expect?

#21

Post by Gfamily »


Light pollution has a huge effect on even the brighter extended objects.
Last year, I made observations of M13 (the great globular cluster in Hercules) on successive weekends, firstly from a dark sky site at the Astrocamp Star Party in rural Wales; the second observation was from our suburban back garden in the NW of England
Same telescope (8" SCT), same time of day

Using an image I took a few years earlier I mocked up the following to show the comparison of what was visible from the two sites
M13  dark sky, town sky.jpg
It's as bad as that I'm afraid. But under dark skies, the views can be phenomenal. For urban viewing, it can be worth concentrating on Open clusters & binary stars, which can sometimes be easier to appreciate under a cetain amount of light pollution.
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Re: this is what I see of orion nebula in my telescope. is this what I should expect?

#22

Post by realflow100 »


Even open clusters fainter than pleiades are just barely visible with only a few faint stars in them.
I really struggle with anything fainter than the brightest clusters and objects.

christmas tree cluster is devoid of stars only a few faint ones barely perceptable.
even beehive cluster is quite faint and not exciting to observe.
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Re: this is what I see of orion nebula in my telescope. is this what I should expect?

#23

Post by realflow100 »


:(
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Re: this is what I see of orion nebula in my telescope. is this what I should expect?

#24

Post by notFritzArgelander »


realflow100 wrote: Sat May 02, 2020 3:34 pm I hear from so many people they are seeing like twice as bright and twice as many details as me or more. with the same size telescope!
Are they in better skies or just have better dark adaptation or something?
I'm not sure if im doing something wrong.
but i'm not able to get anywhere to achieve dark adaptation. theres far too many streetlights glaring everywhere. like every 100 feet!
and i live in a densely populated apartment complex area.

I wish i lived in the middle of nowhere in a small house with a wide open field and no streetlights for at least a mile radius!
I'm sure i'd be able to see way more then right?
You might surprise yourself, by practicing seeing you will see more. Observing visually is a lot like playing a musical instrument. It takes hours of practice. Be patient. Look carefully for smal changes in brightness. Experiment with taking long looks with different magnification eyepieces. For improving dark adaptation get an eyepatch and dedicate one eye to dark adaptation. A dark hood will help too.

When you can, take a vacation to someplace dark and see the difference. Your practice in a light polluted area won't be wasted.
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Re: this is what I see of orion nebula in my telescope. is this what I should expect?

#25

Post by kt4hx »


There are many factors at play here, with the main ones being (in no particular order):

1) your local conditions
2) your level of observing experience
3) perspective

There are other factors of course, but these are very important and they are linked as well. My home backyard used to be a solid Bortle 5 (now approaching Bortle 6) and I could always see M31 in Andromeda naked eye on all but the nights with the worst transparency. However, that does not mean you would see it naked eye at the same that I was. I have had decades of observing experience, particularly in detecting very dim threshold objects . I have the ability to detect very subtle variations of light and dark through the eyepiece because I have put in a lot of hours at the scope training my eyes. All that gives me a strong perspective of what I should expect to see under varying conditions, both telescopically and with the naked eye.

I have observed with others with little to no observing experience and shown them objects through the eyepiece. I would describe what it is I was seeing and in some cases they could not see the object at all, let along details within it. That is because they lacked observing experience and the all important perspective of what they should see. The more times we observe an object, the better we become at truly seeing it. There is a vast difference between looking and truly seeing. Of course we all know there are certain limitations we have to work within, such as local conditions and aperture, but we can often exceed our basic expectations simply by gaining experience and improving out observing skills.

One last thing I will mention as a reminder for everyone is that I never observe diffuse objects (galaxies and nebulae) under moonlight. The moon increases the brightness of the sky and those objects are already struggling to push through your local sky glow. The moon only adds to that difficulty.

So good luck and keep at it, because the more time we spend observing the better our skills become. Observing is not a natural skill, but one that must be learned and nurtured through experience. The Messier objects are a good starting point to work on those skills because they are some of the easier objects up there. The key here is to have fun with the hobby. As I am fond of saying, the more fun we have the more we learn, and the more we learn the more fun we have.
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Re: this is what I see of orion nebula in my telescope. is this what I should expect?

#26

Post by Richard »


100% as a visual only observer time spent is your friend , but the amount of light pollution in many areas is increasing I cant check exactly my area but was a 6 now must be a 8 in a 2 year period as every light around are bright LED , and people have more lights as they consume less power I was able to see the Pleiades naked eye 2 years ago , but no longer
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Re: this is what I see of orion nebula in my telescope. is this what I should expect?

#27

Post by realflow100 »


I dont see any difference at all when observing orion nebula or andromeda galaxy with a telescope. whether theres a full moon out. or no moon at all.
Its absolutely identical.
Even with the best possible dark adaptation I can get in both cases.

The moon doesnt even cast a visible shadow anywhere because the light pollution completely overwhelms the light from the moon.
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Re: this is what I see of orion nebula in my telescope. is this what I should expect?

#28

Post by GCoyote »


Lots of good advice, some of that may help me. I can't see the Orion Nebula either. By the time it clears all the obstructions it's sitting right over Washington, DC.

You seem to be in a pretty extreme situation so we may need more specific data if you really want to make some headway.

1. It looks like you have a table top scope. What do you set it on when observing? Is it something you can move?
2. Make a sketch of the location you observe from. Mark the directions of each of the worst light sources. Within this area is there more than one spot you can set up on?
3. It sounds like you are on a very tight budget. Need a little info here. What tools and resources do have that you are comfortable using? Duct tape? Trash bags? A box cutter? Spray paint? Clothes line?
Any metaphor will tear if stretched over too much reality.
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Re: this is what I see of orion nebula in my telescope. is this what I should expect?

#29

Post by realflow100 »


I have a sturdy tripod to put my tabletop telescope mount on with adjustable legs. so I can use that comfortably.
Theres really no where safe from light pollution. theres super bright streetlights in all directions in front yard or back yard (Theres not really much of a yard. its just a driveway between all the apartment buildings.)
I need to pretty much look through a toilet paper tube if I dont want streetlights glaring in my eyes! I need lens hoods for my eyes.
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Re: this is what I see of orion nebula in my telescope. is this what I should expect?

#30

Post by GCoyote »


Is there a fence? Is there a sign post? Anything you can tie a length of clothes line to?
A sketch would help.
Any metaphor will tear if stretched over too much reality.
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Re: this is what I see of orion nebula in my telescope. is this what I should expect?

#31

Post by realflow100 »


Nope theres nothing like that. and I wouldn't be allowed to set anything up myself. because of the extremely strict landlord rules they dont allow anything to be strung up or tied to anything outside. any holes dug. or anything. cant damage the property or do anything "suspicious"

the best I could maybe do is wear a strongly opaque black garbage bag or cloth over myself while using a telescope.
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Re: this is what I see of orion nebula in my telescope. is this what I should expect?

#32

Post by GCoyote »


Not sure what constitutes suspicious if the neighborhood is already that bad.
BTW have you been to the University Planetarium yet?
Any metaphor will tear if stretched over too much reality.
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Re: this is what I see of orion nebula in my telescope. is this what I should expect?

#33

Post by realflow100 »


no and I dont think i'm going to be going anywhere for a while. my mom utterly refuses to go anywhere until we get the vaccine and she utterly refuses to get ANY vaccine if its not the johnson one
she only wants the johnson one and refuses to get any other one. and its not available right now. so we're just waiting and waiting. could be months D:

and I cant go out and risk catching the virus bringing it back home because my mom is at very high risk with serious complications if she gets the virus. she could end up in the hospital in the emergency room. she has diabetes and shes over 65 and she has serious problems with her legs she can barely walk her feet are extremely swollen and shes been to the hospital twice because of her swollen legs and painful legs and they wont do anything to treat the symptoms.
she has also had a burst appendix and a problem with gallbladder pain.
diabetes is miserable :(
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Re: this is what I see of orion nebula in my telescope. is this what I should expect?

#34

Post by Graeme1858 »


realflow100 wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 7:06 am no and I dont think i'm going to be going anywhere for a while.

Sounds like your Mum is quite poorly. My gall bladder went a couple of years ago, it's very painfull.

I hope you get your jabs soon.

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Re: this is what I see of orion nebula in my telescope. is this what I should expect?

#35

Post by GCoyote »


realflow100 wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 3:33 am Nope theres nothing like that. and I wouldn't be allowed to set anything up myself. because of the extremely strict landlord rules they dont allow anything to be strung up or tied to anything outside. any holes dug. or anything. cant damage the property or do anything "suspicious"

the best I could maybe do is wear a strongly opaque black garbage bag or cloth over myself while using a telescope.
If you can set it on the ground instead of using the tripod, you could use some discarded Amazon boxes (a little dumpster diving might be required) to do a temporary light screen and just toss it back in the trash after you finish.
All you would need is a box cutter or just a short kitchen knife. You can make it higher by cutting slots in the edges of the cardboard and inserting one box on top of another. Very light and you can turn the whole thing to block the most light for whichever target you are looking at.

If the landlord has a problem with "suspicious" behavior, inform him/her in advance, preferably by email so you will have a copy. Better yet, invite them to a session at the scope. It seems highly unlikely that anything in your lease would prevent this sort of silent educational activity or be enforceable if it did. Restrictions are normally part of a "quiet enjoyment" clause specifying that you can't do anything that would annoy the neighbors or endanger their property. No reasonable person could construe sitting at a telescope to be a problem.
Any metaphor will tear if stretched over too much reality.
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Re: this is what I see of orion nebula in my telescope. is this what I should expect?

#36

Post by realflow100 »


I hear close by gunshots very loud one time I heard almost 20 in a row its EXTREMELY insanely dangerous like detroit here. drug dealers gun shooting and people being crazy especially at night.

I dont go outside at night very often because of that
only time it slightly safer would be early in the morning like 4 to 6 AM before the sun comes up. when its mostly quiet everyones asleep.
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Re: this is what I see of orion nebula in my telescope. is this what I should expect?

#37

Post by GCoyote »


realflow100 wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 11:54 pm I hear close by gunshots very loud one time I heard almost 20 in a row its EXTREMELY insanely dangerous like detroit here. drug dealers gun shooting and people being crazy especially at night.

I dont go outside at night very often because of that
only time it slightly safer would be early in the morning like 4 to 6 AM before the sun comes up. when its mostly quiet everyones asleep.
Well that means you are very unlikely to be caught sitting behind a cardboard light shield at 4 am.
Any metaphor will tear if stretched over too much reality.
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Re: this is what I see of orion nebula in my telescope. is this what I should expect?

#38

Post by turboscrew »


I really feel for you. You have such restrictions that it's very hard to do much about the LP.
A bigger aperture and heavier filtering might help, but I'm not sure if the enhancement is worth the money.
The only things I can think of, is the dark adaptation tips here and maybe some narrow band filters.
The problem is that heavy filters tend to "eat" the light from stars as well.

This might not be much of a consolation, but I live somewhat high up in north, and until August this is as dark as it gets.
So a couple of months waiting here too.
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Re: this is what I see of orion nebula in my telescope. is this what I should expect?

#39

Post by mikemarotta »


realflow100 wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 3:27 pm Andromeda galaxy is just as faint as orion nebula for me. not visible naked eye. and very faint with a telescope.
I have similar problems with my neighbor's lights. Some nights, I just packed up and came in. Other nights, I waited for them to go to sleep (finally), and then went out at 1:00 AM and even 5:00 AM. So, I appreciate your problems.

What is the best viewing spot in your yard? And what direction does that face?

There's a lot to see. Sometimes, chasing famous objects is like chasing famous people. You mention Andromeda and Orion. So that's north and south. What's east and west like?
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Re: this is what I see of orion nebula in my telescope. is this what I should expect?

#40

Post by realflow100 »


I dont have a yard really. back door of apartment still has bright streetlights that can potentially come into my vision from ANY direction. Theres just no way at all to get away from it. so I will always suffer with minimal dark adaptation
(Staying out for 1 minute or 1 hour makes no discernable meaningful difference in the amount of stars i see at night. Even while cupping my hands around my face to try to block out as much light as possible and artificially restrict my field of view to only the bare sky.)

The milkyway has some trees and buildings blocking it until about 3 to 4 AM where its the clearest/highest away from the horizon for me right now. but all I see are a couple very sparse stars. All brighter than about magnitude 3-ish. Can't see any stars fainter than that no matter how hard I try with averted vision.

The background sky around the stars is very obvious and visible grey-blue-yellow-orange muddy brown color. I can see dark silluhettes of cell towers against the night sky if I look for them where theres no lights shining on the towers very far away. Even with no moon out.
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canon 50mm STM F1.8
svbony 8-24mm zoom eyepiece
svbony goldline 66 degree 9mm and 6mm + 40mm plossl + 2x barlow.
svbony UHC 1.25 filter + astromania 1.25" O-3 filter + also an svbony H-B filter.
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