'Lakes' under Mars' south pole: A muddy picture?

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'Lakes' under Mars' south pole: A muddy picture?

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Post by notFritzArgelander »


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Re: 'Lakes' under Mars' south pole: A muddy picture?

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Post by Ylem »


Interesting article, also glad to hear Mars Express is still functional.
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Re: 'Lakes' under Mars' south pole: A muddy picture?

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Thank's
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Re: 'Lakes' under Mars' south pole: A muddy picture?

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Post by GCoyote »


Interesting. Another instance were a little 'ground truth' might possibly resolve the question?

Short of drilling through the ice ($$$), what sort of probe could we drop onto the ice caps to sort this out?
Seismic?

Edit: On second thought, maybe those teams looking to put a probe into the subsurface ocean of a Jovian moon should try an easier target first, a much shallower Martian ice cap.
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Re: 'Lakes' under Mars' south pole: A muddy picture?

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Post by notFritzArgelander »


GCoyote wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 2:32 pm Interesting. Another instance were a little 'ground truth' might possibly resolve the question?

Short of drilling through the ice ($$$), what sort of probe could we drop onto the ice caps to sort this out?
Seismic?

Edit: On second thought, maybe those teams looking to put a probe into the subsurface ocean of a Jovian moon should try an easier target first, a much shallower Martian ice cap.
That's an excellent idea....
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Re: 'Lakes' under Mars' south pole: A muddy picture?

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Post by GCoyote »


I just submitted it to "Ask an Expert" on the Europa Clipper NASA page.

Nap time.
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Re: 'Lakes' under Mars' south pole: A muddy picture?

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Post by notFritzArgelander »


GCoyote wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 7:04 pm I just submitted it to "Ask an Expert" on the Europa Clipper NASA page.

Nap time.
Good work! You earned it.... ;)
Scopes: Refs: Orion ST80, SV 80EDA f7, TS 102ED f11 Newts: AWB 130mm, f5, Z12 f5; Cats: VMC110L, Intes MK66,VMC200L f9.75 EPs: KK Fujiyama Orthoscopics, 2x Vixen NPLs (40-6mm) and BCOs, Baader Mark IV zooms, TV Panoptics, Delos, Plossl 32-8mm. Mixed brand Masuyama/Astroplans Binoculars: Nikon Aculon 10x50, Celestron 15x70, Baader Maxbright. Mounts: Star Seeker IV, Vixen Porta II, Celestron CG5
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Re: 'Lakes' under Mars' south pole: A muddy picture?

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Post by GCoyote »


Wow! I got an answer from NASA already (must be a slow week with people on summer vacation for the first time in two years).
Hi Gary,

Thanks for your questions about doing a tech demo on Mars as prep for Europa missions.

I’m on the public engagement team at NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) and lead writer for the Europa Clipper mission’s official website. I didn’t have an answer myself, so I took your question to Cynthia Phillips. Cynthia is a planetary geologist here at JPL, and is Europa Clipper mission’s project staff scientist and project science communications lead.

Here’s your question for context, followed by Cynthia’s answer:

You wrote: Before trying to get a probe into the subsurface ocean of a Jovian moon, would it make sense to do a technology demonstration on one of the Martian ice caps? Closer to Earth and much thinner ice.

Cynthia responded:

That’s a very interesting idea! We don’t currently know of any plans to do a tech demo on the Martian ice caps. The situation on Mars is different from Europa in a few ways – the ice on Mars is a mix of frozen carbon dioxide and water ice, which is different from Europa’s surface ice crust that is almost all water ice. Plus, we think it’s unlikely that there is a large liquid layer under the ice caps on Mars, unlike at Europa. Scientists have used radar instruments to map the subsurface structure of Martian ice caps in ways similar to how Europa Clipper’s REASON radar sounding instrument will study Europa’s subsurface. In addition, scientists have tested out subsurface access probes on glaciers and ice sheets on the Earth.

In addition to Cynthia’s notes, I’ll add a few thoughts. I apologize if you already know most or all of this:

As I understand it, any attempt to reach Europa’s ocean is still two missions away. This is how I think it has to happen:

1) Europa Clipper confirms Europa’s ocean exists and finds evidence that it’s habitable. Also performs recon for suitable landing locations.
2) IF scientists conclude that Europa is likely habitable, we send a lander(s) to find biosignatures (evidence for life) within the top few inches of Europa’s icy surface.
3) IF lander finds evidence for life in Europa’s near-surface ice, only then would NASA send a spacecraft to penetrate Europa’s ice and send data (and hopefully images/video) from Europa’s ocean back to Earth.

Naturally, missions to the outer solar system are an incredible investment in time and labor. We don’t want to invest in a mission to Europa’s ocean unless we find signs of life. Likewise, we don’t want to invest in a lander to seek those signs of life unless we’re sure the moon has at least the potential to support life. And that walks us back to Europa Clipper, which is still about three years from launch and about 10 years from actually reaching Jupiter and studying Europa. And scientists and engineers are already developing and exploring ways to reach Europa’s ocean, and troubleshooting the pitfalls those approaches might encounter.

In conclusion, we’ve got decades before we might attempt to get through Europa’s ice to its ocean, but we’re already working on it. I guess I’m trying to reassure you that we too are concerned with the challenge of reaching Europa’s ocean. But at the same time, I wouldn’t want you to interpret that as a dismissal of your input. We don’t know where the insights that might get us to Europa’s ocean will come from. Sure, our engineers might figure it out. But maybe a better idea will come from you, or from another member of the public. Who knows! We want our missions to succeed, and we don’t care whether the best ideas come from inside or outside of NASA. So again, we genuinely appreciate your thoughts.

I hope you won’t hesitate to reach out again if you have further thoughts, whether suggestions or questions. Sometimes we’re a bit overloaded with work, so it might take us a few days or even a week to get back to you, but we’ll always respond as quickly as we can.

One final thought: I appreciate your interest in the exploration of Europa. And the scientists and engineers who participate in NASA missions recognize more than ever that we can’t do what we do without public support and interest. No less importantly, nearly all of the folks I encounter at JPL are genuine geeks. They’re not simply doing a job. They have a passion for space, its exploration, and of discovery in general. So each time someone like you reaches out, whether with a question, a suggestion, or a criticism, we’re encouraged that we’re not alone in our enthusiasm.

I guess I should cut myself off there. Thanks again for your interest. And take care until the next time!


- Jay
--

Jay R. Thompson
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Solar System and Technology, Public Engagement
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Any metaphor will tear if stretched over too much reality.
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Meade 114-EQ-DH f7.9 Newtonian w/ manual GEM
Bushnell 90mm f13.9 Catadioptric
Gskyer 80mm f5 Alt/Az refractor
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Re: 'Lakes' under Mars' south pole: A muddy picture?

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Post by notFritzArgelander »


Thanks for posing the interesting question and posting the response!
Scopes: Refs: Orion ST80, SV 80EDA f7, TS 102ED f11 Newts: AWB 130mm, f5, Z12 f5; Cats: VMC110L, Intes MK66,VMC200L f9.75 EPs: KK Fujiyama Orthoscopics, 2x Vixen NPLs (40-6mm) and BCOs, Baader Mark IV zooms, TV Panoptics, Delos, Plossl 32-8mm. Mixed brand Masuyama/Astroplans Binoculars: Nikon Aculon 10x50, Celestron 15x70, Baader Maxbright. Mounts: Star Seeker IV, Vixen Porta II, Celestron CG5
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