SWaB: How, exactly, does planet Earth move through the Universe?

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SWaB: How, exactly, does planet Earth move through the Universe?

#1

Post by notFritzArgelander »

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Re: SWaB: How, exactly, does planet Earth move through the Universe?

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Post by turboscrew »

Really nice way of putting it all together.
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Re: SWaB: How, exactly, does planet Earth move through the Universe?

#3

Post by chasmanian »

love it, thanks nFA :)
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Re: SWaB: How, exactly, does planet Earth move through the Universe?

#4

Post by chasmanian »

nFA,

feeling a little dense here.
I cannot make heads nor tail of how we can be moving ~627 km/s relative to the cosmic average,
but the Sun moves at a cumulative 368 km/s relative to the CMB?

I read the text about gravitationally over and under dense regions effect on our motion relative to the cosmic average,
abd also the recently discovered dipole repeller effect.

but for some reason, I intuited that the Sun (and thus ours too, methinks), relative to the CMB would be higher than the other motion.

any thoughts on this?
in my mind, its a cluster. (pun intended.) :)
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Re: SWaB: How, exactly, does planet Earth move through the Universe?

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Post by messier 111 »

fascinating subject , thx .
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Re: SWaB: How, exactly, does planet Earth move through the Universe?

#6

Post by notFritzArgelander »

chasmanian wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 3:54 am nFA,

feeling a little dense here.
I cannot make heads nor tail of how we can be moving ~627 km/s relative to the cosmic average,
but the Sun moves at a cumulative 368 km/s relative to the CMB?

I read the text about gravitationally over and under dense regions effect on our motion relative to the cosmic average,
abd also the recently discovered dipole repeller effect.

but for some reason, I intuited that the Sun (and thus ours too, methinks), relative to the CMB would be higher than the other motion.

any thoughts on this?
in my mind, its a cluster. (pun intended.) :)
The CMB provides a background that defines a reference frame in which the universe should appear homogenous and isotropic. What he refers to as the velocity w.r.t 'the cosmic average' isn't very well defined in the text, I think he's referring to the peculiar velocity of the Local Group of galaxies. I can't think of a reason why one should be higher than another. What's your thinking?
Scopes: Refs: Orion ST80, SV 80EDA f7, TS 102ED f11 Newts: Z12 f5; Cats: VMC110L, Intes MK66,VMC200L f9.75 EPs: KK Fujiyama Orthoscopics, 2x Vixen NPLs (40-6mm) and BCOs, Baader Mark IV zooms, TV Panoptics, Delos, Plossl 32-8mm. Mixed brand Masuyama/Astroplans Binoculars: Nikon Aculon 10x50, Celestron 15x70, Baader Maxbright. Mounts: Star Seeker III, Vixen Porta II, Celestron CG5, Orion Sirius EQG
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Re: SWaB: How, exactly, does planet Earth move through the Universe?

#7

Post by chasmanian »

thank you nFA.

my thinking is not real clear.

this part is clear: in the reference frame of Earth moving around the Sun, and the Sun orbiting the Milky Way center, we're moving at such and such a speed. thats simple.

after that I get lost.
peculiar velocity of the Local Group of Galaxies reference frame, I'm not real clear on.
is the reference frame for this, the Observable Universe, or is some far away distant stars or galaxies, or galaxy superclusters?

also, CMB reference frame I'm not real clear on.
and, how about how expansion of the Universe affects our motion speed?

does the expansion of the Universe affect the CMB reference frame and our motion speed?
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Re: SWaB: How, exactly, does planet Earth move through the Universe?

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Post by helicon »

Very interesting article notFritz.
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Re: SWaB: How, exactly, does planet Earth move through the Universe?

#9

Post by Frankskywatcher »

I have seen this more than once but I don’t think it’s accurate any opinion’s?
Gee if I had known there was so much to see I would have started decades ago !
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Re: SWaB: How, exactly, does planet Earth move through the Universe?

#10

Post by notFritzArgelander »

Frankskywatcher wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 7:43 pm I have seen this more than once but I don’t think it’s accurate any opinion’s?
It's utter rubbish and has been debunked in several older threads. The most egregious error is that the motion of the Sun is NOT perpendicular to the plane of planetary orbits. The vortex idea is irrelevant and misleading.

The solar system is heading toward "the apex of the Sun's way"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_apex

See the link for the ecliptic coordinates.

The video shows the Sun moving toward 90 degrees latitude not 53 degrees.

I not in passing that vortices are extremely popular among the Electric Universe pseudoscience cult.
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Re: SWaB: How, exactly, does planet Earth move through the Universe?

#11

Post by Frankskywatcher »

Thanks for your reply my friend,yea
that’s what the consensus is that it’s bunk but I posted it because for me was how does that type of stuff get generated in the first place?
Gee if I had known there was so much to see I would have started decades ago !
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Re: SWaB: How, exactly, does planet Earth move through the Universe?

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Post by notFritzArgelander »

Frankskywatcher wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 8:49 pm Thanks for your reply my friend,yea
that’s what the consensus is that it’s bunk but I posted it because for me was how does that type of stuff get generated in the first place?
Folks with animation tools and time can generate all sorts of stuff. CGI costs have come down a bit. :)

Here's a link on the "Electric Universe Theory".

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Electric_Universe

How does this stuff get generated? Well it's the same impulse that motivates "flat Earthers". ;)
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Re: SWaB: How, exactly, does planet Earth move through the Universe?

#13

Post by Frankskywatcher »

notFritzArgelander wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 10:01 pm
Frankskywatcher wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 8:49 pm Thanks for your reply my friend,yea
that’s what the consensus is that it’s bunk but I posted it because for me was how does that type of stuff get generated in the first place?
Folks with animation tools and time can generate all sorts of stuff. CGI costs have come down a bit. :)

Here's a link on the "Electric Universe Theory".

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Electric_Universe

How does this stuff get generated? Well it's the same impulse that motivates "flat Earthers". ;)
Thanks for the link it’s very interesting and amusing at the same time !👏🏻
Gee if I had known there was so much to see I would have started decades ago !
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Re: SWaB: How, exactly, does planet Earth move through the Universe?

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Post by notFritzArgelander »

chasmanian wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:03 pm thank you nFA.

my thinking is not real clear.

this part is clear: in the reference frame of Earth moving around the Sun, and the Sun orbiting the Milky Way center, we're moving at such and such a speed. thats simple.

after that I get lost.
peculiar velocity of the Local Group of Galaxies reference frame, I'm not real clear on.
is the reference frame for this, the Observable Universe, or is some far away distant stars or galaxies, or galaxy superclusters?

also, CMB reference frame I'm not real clear on.
and, how about how expansion of the Universe affects our motion speed?

does the expansion of the Universe affect the CMB reference frame and our motion speed?
i think this clarifies by remembering that speed is not the same as velocity. velocity has a direction. so velocities that have different directions add like vectors.

the peculiar velocity of the Local Group is with respect to other galaxies and clusters, not the CMB IIRC. the CMB background is the frame against which the expansion of the universe happens. hot and cold spots in it represent over and under densities where the local peculiar velocities resist gravitationally the expansion by greater or lesser amounts.

the expansion of the universe only affects the CMB through warm and cold spots that represent over/under densities and greater/lesser gravitational resistance to expansion. it does not affect our local peculiar velocity directly which depends on local history only.
Scopes: Refs: Orion ST80, SV 80EDA f7, TS 102ED f11 Newts: Z12 f5; Cats: VMC110L, Intes MK66,VMC200L f9.75 EPs: KK Fujiyama Orthoscopics, 2x Vixen NPLs (40-6mm) and BCOs, Baader Mark IV zooms, TV Panoptics, Delos, Plossl 32-8mm. Mixed brand Masuyama/Astroplans Binoculars: Nikon Aculon 10x50, Celestron 15x70, Baader Maxbright. Mounts: Star Seeker III, Vixen Porta II, Celestron CG5, Orion Sirius EQG
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Re: SWaB: How, exactly, does planet Earth move through the Universe?

#15

Post by chasmanian »

thank you so much nFA.

I will ask you to please excuse or pardon any over density on my part.

isn't the CMB growing commensurately with the expansion of the Observable Universe?

for our peculiar velocity, would you please tell me more about the ultimate frame of reference for it?

its simple for me to understand the close ones.
our peculiar velocity around the Sun, the Solar Systems' peculiar velocity around the Milky Way center,
and the peculiar velocity of our Local Group, in whatever direction we are traveling.

but what comes next?
is there an ultimate reference frame, that is our highest motion velocity?
if yes, what is the frame of reference for that?
is it some very distant stars or galaxies or quasars or CMB?

and side note comment:
the gravitationally over and under dense regions of space attract and repel us,
because they bend spacetime.
the more the spacetime is curved, the more attracted we are, and the faster we go.
and verse vice a (har har har).
am I right about that?
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Re: SWaB: How, exactly, does planet Earth move through the Universe?

#16

Post by notFritzArgelander »

chasmanian wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:33 am thank you so much nFA.

I will ask you to please excuse or pardon any over density on my part.
:lol: nice pun. i am also overdense since i am playing a lot of chess online these days and though enjoyable the little grey cells (nod to H Poirot) are very, very tired and overworked.
isn't the CMB growing commensurately with the expansion of the Observable Universe?
it depends on how you look at it. certainly the horizon of transparency grows (the distance to the last scattering of light) but the temperature decreases with expansion.
for our peculiar velocity, would you please tell me more about the ultimate frame of reference for it?
that actually varies from study to study. there is no ultimate reference frame. in one study it could be the center of mass of the Local Group, M31, the Virgo Cluster, or the Lanikea Supercluster. I think Ethan chose the Virgo Cluster but it would differ w.r.t Lanikea.

its simple for me to understand the close ones.
our peculiar velocity around the Sun, the Solar Systems' peculiar velocity around the Milky Way center,
and the peculiar velocity of our Local Group, in whatever direction we are traveling.
but what comes next?
is there an ultimate reference frame, that is our highest motion velocity?
if yes, what is the frame of reference for that?
is it some very distant stars or galaxies or quasars or CMB?
why would an ultimate reference frame (the CMB is the only thing to fit the billing) have the highest velocity? the velocity toward the Virgo Cluster is higher in speed than the velocity w.r.t the CMB although both are roughly in the same direction.

note that the speed with respect to
and side note comment:
the gravitationally over and under dense regions of space attract and repel us,
because they bend spacetime.
the more the spacetime is curved, the more attracted we are, and the faster we go.
and verse vice a (har har har).
am I right about that?
[/quote]

it's acceleration which over time results in a speed difference.
Scopes: Refs: Orion ST80, SV 80EDA f7, TS 102ED f11 Newts: Z12 f5; Cats: VMC110L, Intes MK66,VMC200L f9.75 EPs: KK Fujiyama Orthoscopics, 2x Vixen NPLs (40-6mm) and BCOs, Baader Mark IV zooms, TV Panoptics, Delos, Plossl 32-8mm. Mixed brand Masuyama/Astroplans Binoculars: Nikon Aculon 10x50, Celestron 15x70, Baader Maxbright. Mounts: Star Seeker III, Vixen Porta II, Celestron CG5, Orion Sirius EQG
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Re: SWaB: How, exactly, does planet Earth move through the Universe?

#17

Post by chasmanian »

thank you nFA for your exceptionally super and generous reply.
it is a joy to read.

"why would an ultimate reference frame (the CMB is the only thing to fit the billing) have the highest velocity?"

maybe its lack of clearly really getting what the CMB is.
isn't it everywhere?
but that includes on the edge of the Observable Universe, I think.
maybe I just think bigger or farther away, implies some huge largest value.
for not any good reason.

or
maybe I think that the farther away we get from here, the faster the universe is expanding.
and that faster expansion, somehow causes our velocity to be the largest.

or
maybe because I think that
because we go faster as we scale up from orbit around the Sun, orbit around the Milky Way center, and then Local Group velocity,
AND those are all progressively farther away,
then
the further away we choose our reference frame, the faster we're going.

I just re-read this, and I think its all 3 of my answers.
so D, all of the above! ha cha cha cha :):):)




"the velocity toward the Virgo Cluster is higher in speed than the velocity w.r.t the CMB although both are roughly in the same direction."

humbly requesting clarification.
isn't the CMB everywhere?
so its in every direction, not just in the direction of the Virgo Cluster?
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Re: SWaB: How, exactly, does planet Earth move through the Universe?

#18

Post by notFritzArgelander »

chasmanian wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 4:37 am thank you nFA for your exceptionally super and generous reply.
it is a joy to read.

......

"the velocity toward the Virgo Cluster is higher in speed than the velocity w.r.t the CMB although both are roughly in the same direction."

humbly requesting clarification.
isn't the CMB everywhere?
so its in every direction, not just in the direction of the Virgo Cluster?
the motion inferred from the CMB is in a particular direction, roughly the Virgo Cluster's direction but not exactly.

the CMB is indeed everywhere but it is seen as coming from all directions. when the weather is clear and the Sun is up and you are out of doors sunlight is everywhere. but you only see the sunlight directly by looking (with proper precautions) at the Sun's disk where the surface becomes "optically thick", all else is reflections. you see where the last photons scattered by the Sun's atmosphere emerged.

similarly while the CMB is everywhere, one only sees that surface from which it is emitted at a redshift of z =1100 a light travel time of 13.270 Gyr in a model where the BB happened 13.271 Gyr ago.
Scopes: Refs: Orion ST80, SV 80EDA f7, TS 102ED f11 Newts: Z12 f5; Cats: VMC110L, Intes MK66,VMC200L f9.75 EPs: KK Fujiyama Orthoscopics, 2x Vixen NPLs (40-6mm) and BCOs, Baader Mark IV zooms, TV Panoptics, Delos, Plossl 32-8mm. Mixed brand Masuyama/Astroplans Binoculars: Nikon Aculon 10x50, Celestron 15x70, Baader Maxbright. Mounts: Star Seeker III, Vixen Porta II, Celestron CG5, Orion Sirius EQG
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Re: SWaB: How, exactly, does planet Earth move through the Universe?

#19

Post by chasmanian »

fascinating, thank you so much nFA.

if I understand correctly,
we look in the direction of the Virgo Cluster (roughly but not exactly),
and then way beyond that, almost all the way to the edge of of our Observable Universe, at the surface of where the CMB was emitted,
not long after the BB,
and
from that information, we infer our motion roughly but not exactly in the direction of the Virgo Cluster.
am I right?
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Re: SWaB: How, exactly, does planet Earth move through the Universe?

#20

Post by notFritzArgelander »

chasmanian wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 3:46 am fascinating, thank you so much nFA.

if I understand correctly,
we look in the direction of the Virgo Cluster (roughly but not exactly),
and then way beyond that, almost all the way to the edge of of our Observable Universe, at the surface of where the CMB was emitted,
not long after the BB,
and
from that information, we infer our motion roughly but not exactly in the direction of the Virgo Cluster.
am I right?
Yes. The temperature of the CMB in that direction is a little higher than in the opposite direction so that corresponds to a "blue shift" in energy. We are moving toward the Virgo Cluster faster than toward the CMB because of the mass of the Virgo Cluster and Lanikea beyond.
Scopes: Refs: Orion ST80, SV 80EDA f7, TS 102ED f11 Newts: Z12 f5; Cats: VMC110L, Intes MK66,VMC200L f9.75 EPs: KK Fujiyama Orthoscopics, 2x Vixen NPLs (40-6mm) and BCOs, Baader Mark IV zooms, TV Panoptics, Delos, Plossl 32-8mm. Mixed brand Masuyama/Astroplans Binoculars: Nikon Aculon 10x50, Celestron 15x70, Baader Maxbright. Mounts: Star Seeker III, Vixen Porta II, Celestron CG5, Orion Sirius EQG
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