the latest test of the universe's homogeneity and isotropy

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the latest test of the universe's homogeneity and isotropy

#1

Post by notFritzArgelander »


https://phys.org/news/2020-08-universe- ... gists.html

In fact it's smoother than expected.

Bad news for fans of the pseudoscience notion that the universe is emitted as a jet from an unobservable black hole..... ;)
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Re: the latest test of the universe's homogeneity and isotropy

#2

Post by metastable »


notFritzArgelander wrote: Thu Aug 06, 2020 12:40 am Bad news for fans of the pseudoscience notion that the universe is emitted as a jet from an unobservable black hole.....
I haven't yet read a convincing mechanism for the accelerating expansion.

Suppose we have Alice, a photon emitter, Bob an observer stationary to Alice, and Carol an observer from whose perspective Alice and Bob travel at relativistic velocity (99.999999999...% light speed).

Carol is hovering using engine thrust at fixed altitude above a super massive black hole and is not orbiting. Alice and Bob are coasting in formation directly away from the super massive black hole at nearly the speed of light.

Alice emits 2 photons which from her perspective are traveling in opposite directions that co-moving Bob also observes traveling in opposite directions (vectors separated by 180 deg - bottom panel picture below).

But since Alice and Bob are traveling at relativistic velocity from Carol's perspective, the relativistic aberration is observed, a phenomenon which changes the apparent angle at which a photon is measured to travel, when the emitter travels at relativistic speed. Under this effect, observers measure the angle of emitted photons to be concentrated in the direction of travel of a relativistic emitter. Carol doesn't observe both photons traveling in opposite directions, she sees both photons travel along a substantially similar trajectory to Alice and Bob, because of the relativistic aberration (top panel below).

Since Carol is stationary to the black hole, and Alice and Bob travel nearly the speed of light directly away from the black hole, the relativistic aberration causes both photons emitted by Alice to travel away from the black hole, and since both photons are "climbing" out of the black hole's gravitational field, both photons become progressively more gravitationally redshifted the further they travel. The greater the separation distance between Alice and Bob, the more gravitationally redshifted Bob will observe the photons become even though Alice and Bob are stationary to each other, because during the time of flight between Alice and Bob, the photon climbed some distance out of a gravitational well.

So now if we substitute Alice and Bob for the matter in the observable universe, and we assume the observable universe is a spherical region within a relativistic jet emanating from an ultra-large black hole outside the observable universe but within the total universe -- assuming the relativistic jet has enough velocity, then I suspect nearly all photons emitted within the observable universe can be gravitationally redshifted proportional to their time of flight or separation distance between emitter and observer. If the ultra-massive black hole accretes mass % faster than the observable universe increases distance %, then the gravitational redshift appears to accelerate over time.


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I still don't understand exactly how Noether's Theorem supposedly disproves such a hypothesis. If the jet is uniform the observable universe appears uniform.

Image

"an apparently one-sided jet, and two radio lobes with hot spots of comparable flux densities. The jet is intrinsically two sided but relativistic, so Doppler boosting brightens the approaching jet and dims the receding jet."
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Re: the latest test of the universe's homogeneity and isotropy

#3

Post by notFritzArgelander »


metastable wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 3:27 pm
notFritzArgelander wrote: Thu Aug 06, 2020 12:40 am Bad news for fans of the pseudoscience notion that the universe is emitted as a jet from an unobservable black hole.....
I haven't yet read a convincing mechanism for the accelerating expansion.
Flat Earthers have also not read a convincing explanation for the Earth being spherical. The problem might not be in the proposed mechanisms. ;)
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Re: the latest test of the universe's homogeneity and isotropy

#4

Post by notFritzArgelander »


One more response to this post.
metastable wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 3:27 pm
notFritzArgelander wrote: Thu Aug 06, 2020 12:40 am Bad news for fans of the pseudoscience notion that the universe is emitted as a jet from an unobservable black hole.....
I still don't understand exactly how Noether's Theorem supposedly disproves such a hypothesis. If the jet is uniform the observable universe appears uniform.
Word salad and bad logic. If a "jet" is uniform it isn't a jet. See the pictures you've posted for details.
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Re: the latest test of the universe's homogeneity and isotropy

#5

Post by notFritzArgelander »


PS Jets are accelerated at the point of origin and decelerate continually thereafter. So a SMBH outside the observable universe emitting a jet that contains the visible universe would undergo deceleration. Your wild idea is self contradictory with regard to explaining the observed acceleration. Dark Energy is a much more wholesome idea that doesn't violate Noether's Theorem.
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Re: the latest test of the universe's homogeneity and isotropy

#6

Post by rocdoc »


Ooh, [mention]metastable[/mention] done gone and made [mention]notFritzArgelander[/mention] mad. Torn between watching the systematic scientific dismantling and saying a prayer for him. Actually, I’ll do both :)
This is meant in good nature, no offense intended.
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Re: the latest test of the universe's homogeneity and isotropy

#7

Post by notFritzArgelander »


rocdoc wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:53 am Ooh, @metastable done gone and made @notFritzArgelander mad. Torn between watching the systematic scientific dismantling and saying a prayer for him. Actually, I’ll do both :)
This is meant in good nature, no offense intended.
It’s not true that I’ve been “made mad” by [mention]metastable[/mention].

BTW... It’s not “good nature” to pretend to either the pseudoscience or the superpower of mind reading or whatever. I suspect that you should look for traces of kryptonite in your environment. You’re way off. ;)
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Re: the latest test of the universe's homogeneity and isotropy

#8

Post by metastable »


notFritzArgelander wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 3:05 am PS Jets are accelerated at the point of origin and decelerate continually thereafter. So a SMBH outside the observable universe emitting a jet that contains the visible universe would undergo deceleration. Your wild idea is self contradictory with regard to explaining the observed acceleration. Dark Energy is a much more wholesome idea that doesn't violate Noether's Theorem.
In special relativity, acceleration due to gravity the particle's momentum rather than its speed.

Classically, subtracting from momentum and speed are the same thing: the momentum p = m v is proportional to speed.

In fact, you can rewrite Newton's second law in terms of momentum: ∑ F → = d p → d t

This equation is also correct in special relativity, provided we use the relativistic momentum.

The relativistic momentum is: p → = γ m v → γ = 1 1 − | v → | 2 c 2 The "acceleration due to gravity" in relativistic terms is then the derivative of γ v → rather than just the derivative of v → .


Source https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/p ... ts.973635/
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Re: the latest test of the universe's homogeneity and isotropy

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Post by notFritzArgelander »


metastable wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 3:45 pm
notFritzArgelander wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 3:05 am PS Jets are accelerated at the point of origin and decelerate continually thereafter. So a SMBH outside the observable universe emitting a jet that contains the visible universe would undergo deceleration. Your wild idea is self contradictory with regard to explaining the observed acceleration. Dark Energy is a much more wholesome idea that doesn't violate Noether's Theorem.
In special relativity, acceleration due to gravity the particle's momentum rather than its speed.

Classically, subtracting from momentum and speed are the same thing: the momentum p = m v is proportional to speed.

In fact, you can rewrite Newton's second law in terms of momentum: ∑ F → = d p → d t

This equation is also correct in special relativity, provided we use the relativistic momentum.

The relativistic momentum is: p → = γ m v → γ = 1 1 − | v → | 2 c 2 The "acceleration due to gravity" in relativistic terms is then the derivative of γ v → rather than just the derivative of v → .


Source https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/p ... ts.973635/
So what? A jet still decelerates as it moves away from the center of the SMBH. Therefore your model cannot account for accelerated expansion. Your model predicts deceleration and is falsified by the observed acceleration.
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Re: the latest test of the universe's homogeneity and isotropy

#10

Post by metastable »


When the Lorentz factor is high enough in the scenario, the deceleration can take a very long time.
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Re: the latest test of the universe's homogeneity and isotropy

#11

Post by notFritzArgelander »


metastable wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:12 pm When the Lorentz factor is high enough in the scenario, the deceleration can take a very long time.
So it follows, logically, that your model decelerates the expansion and is falsified by the observed expansion. You can decorate your model with pretty pictures and many words, but it is simply wrong.
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Re: the latest test of the universe's homogeneity and isotropy

#12

Post by metastable »


When the Lorentz factor is high enough, the observers can still be relativistic after the age of the universe.
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Re: the latest test of the universe's homogeneity and isotropy

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Post by notFritzArgelander »


Irrelevant! Your model decelerates. Thus it’s false.
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Re: the latest test of the universe's homogeneity and isotropy

#14

Post by metastable »


When the black hole in the scenario is very large, over a large volume of spacetime the gravitational gradient is small.
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Re: the latest test of the universe's homogeneity and isotropy

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Post by notFritzArgelander »


metastable wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 7:19 pm When the black hole in the scenario is very large, over a large volume of spacetime the gravitational gradient is small.
Small isn’t zero. It’s mathematically impossible to get an accelerating expansion out of a decelerating expansion however small that deceleration might be.
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Re: the latest test of the universe's homogeneity and isotropy

#16

Post by metastable »


notFritzArgelander wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 7:28 pm Small isn’t zero. It’s mathematically impossible to get an accelerating expansion out of a decelerating expansion however small that deceleration might be.
Expansion isn't necessary in the model when the observed redshift is gravitational redshift in proportion with distance between emitter and observer.
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Re: the latest test of the universe's homogeneity and isotropy

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Post by notFritzArgelander »


metastable wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 7:32 pm
notFritzArgelander wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 7:28 pm Small isn’t zero. It’s mathematically impossible to get an accelerating expansion out of a decelerating expansion however small that deceleration might be.
Expansion isn't necessary in the model when the observed redshift is gravitational redshift in proportion with distance between emitter and observer.
Nonsense. This remark is also inconsistent with both your mechanism and standard cosmology. The observed redshift cannot be interpreted as gravitational redshift. It increases with distance isotropically (modulo a scattering of dubious studies that haven't gained traction in the community at large). Thus it would seem to imply an enormous increase in the "gravitational potential" at large distances. A massive external spherical shell!

There are results for such objects. First Newton's "shell theorem". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_theorem

Essentially interior to a shell (or many shells) there is no net force inside the shells. So in the lowest order post Newtonian approximation there is no gravitational redshift.

In General Relativity there is an analogous result, Birkhoff's Theorem. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birkhoff% ... elativity) So if you think about it expansion is in and gravitational redshifts are absurd.
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Re: the latest test of the universe's homogeneity and isotropy

#18

Post by metastable »


notFritzArgelander wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 8:07 pm Nonsense. This remark is also inconsistent with both your mechanism and standard cosmology. The observed redshift cannot be interpreted as gravitational redshift. It increases with distance isotropically
The higher the Lorentz factor of Alice and Bob from Carol's perspective, the more closely the gravitational-redshift-proportional-with-distance-to-Alice observed by Bob approaches isotropy when he views Alice from different co-moving angles and distances.
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Re: the latest test of the universe's homogeneity and isotropy

#19

Post by notFritzArgelander »


metastable wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 8:15 pm
notFritzArgelander wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 8:07 pm Nonsense. This remark is also inconsistent with both your mechanism and standard cosmology. The observed redshift cannot be interpreted as gravitational redshift. It increases with distance isotropically
The higher the Lorentz factor of Alice and Bob from Carol's perspective, the more closely the gravitational-redshift-proportional-with-distance-to-Alice observed by Bob approaches isotropy when he views Alice from different co-moving angles and distances.
Irrelevant. Your mechanism decelerates. The expansion of the universe is observed as accelerating.
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Re: the latest test of the universe's homogeneity and isotropy

#20

Post by metastable »


notFritzArgelander wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 8:24 pm Irrelevant. Your mechanism decelerates. The expansion of the universe is observed as accelerating.

Yes, It is observed as accelerating when the redshift is interpreted as doppler redshift proportional to distance.
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