As if I need a new telescope...

Discuss your 'Cats' here.
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Re: As if I need a new telescope...

#21

Post by notFritzArgelander » Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:41 pm

Bigzmey wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:38 pm
notFritzArgelander wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:42 pm
Bigzmey wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:10 pm


Funny how things work. From the limited sampling I had I prefer standard SCTs over standard Maks. :D
Bad sample?
I MUCH prefer aplanatic SCTs and Rutten Maks and Klevzov Maks for DSOs and planets. Even Gregory Maks like this Bresser model outperform standard SCTs on lunar/planetary.
Bad sampling can go both ways. :lol: I have not, but would love to try better executed Maks. As for mass produced Gregory Maks, they are not bad. I still prefer SCTs though.
Noted. My experience is that even Gregory Maks have better contrast than SCTs. ;)

Apart from sampling issues there are individual physiological differences and differences in experience of the observers.

I'm very much put off by field curvature aberrations and loss of contrast. Having had a lot of experience with 8" SCTs I had high hopes for the 9.25 SCT "the SCT for folks who hate SCTs" as Ed Ting says if I recall right. It was a disappointment and lived down to my experience of the 8" SCTs. Now the aplanatic Edge 9.25 was wonderful!

I'm looking at a 9.25 or 11 Edge or a VMC260L as my last non feline CAT.
Last edited by notFritzArgelander on Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Scopes: Refractors: Orion ST80, SV ED80 A f7; Newtonians: Z12 f5; Catadioptrics: VMC110L, Intes MK66. EPs: KK Fujiyama Orthoscopics, 2x Vixen NPLs (40-6mm) and BCOs, Baader Mark IV zooms, TV Panoptics, Delos, Plossl 32-8mm. Mixed brand Masuyama/Astroplans Binoculars: Nikon Aculon 10x50, Celestron 15x70, Baader Maxbright. Mounts: Star Seeker III, Vixen Porta II, Celestron CG5, Orion Sirius EQG
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#22

Post by Lady Fraktor » Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:46 pm

I have used a few different SCTs from Meade, Celestron and a couple older Japanese made ones, just not my favorite views though the Meade LX-200 7" Mak was an outstanding telescope.
The Japanese ones were much better than the C & M versions though.
If I can remember the manufacturer I will post it tomorrow.
Proper Telescopes: Antares 105 f/15, Celestron 150 f/8, Stellarvue NHNGDX 80 f/6.9, TAL 100RS f/10, TS 102 f/11, UR 70 f/10, Vixen ED115s f/7.7
Mounts: Celestron AS-GT, Celestron CG-5 w/ Argo Navis & tracking motor, SLT w/ pier & tripod mods, Manfrotto 028b w/ SV M2C, Mantrotto 055Pro w/ 128RC, TAL MT1C, Vixen SXP w/ HAL-130 & half pier
Diagonal: 2" A-P Maxbright, 2" Baader Herschel Wedge (P), 2" Zeiss/ Baader Amici Prism (DX2), 2" Orion Amici Prism, 2" Stellarvue DX, 2" TeleVue EverBrite
Eyepieces: Antares to Zeiss
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#23

Post by Bigzmey » Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:59 pm

notFritzArgelander wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:41 pm
Bigzmey wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:38 pm
notFritzArgelander wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:42 pm


Bad sample?
I MUCH prefer aplanatic SCTs and Rutten Maks and Klevzov Maks for DSOs and planets. Even Gregory Maks like this Bresser model outperform standard SCTs on lunar/planetary.
Bad sampling can go both ways. :lol: I have not, but would love to try better executed Maks. As for mass produced Gregory Maks, they are not bad. I still prefer SCTs though.
Noted. My experience is that even Gregory Maks have better contrast than SCTs. ;)

Apart from sampling issues there are individual physiological differences and differences in experience of the observers.

I'm very much put off by field curvature aberrations and loss of contrast. Having had a lot of experience with 8" SCTs I had high hopes for the 9.25 SCT "the SCT for folks who hate SCTs" as Ed Ting says if I recall right. It was a disappointment and lived down to my experience of the 8" SCTs. Now the aplanatic Edge 9.25 was wonderful!

I'm looking at a 9.25 or 11 Edge or a VMC260L as my last non feline CAT.
I like the idea of 11" Edge. :D
Scopes: Stellarvue: SV102 ED F7; Celestron: 9.25" EdgeHD F10, 8" SCT F10, 6" SCT F10, Omni XLT 150R Achro F5, Onyx 80ED F6.3; Meade: 80ST Achro F5.
Mounts: ES: Twilight I; Bresser: EXOS2; SW: SkyTee2, AzGTi; UA: MicroStar.
Binos: Orion: Little Giant II 15x70, WorldView 10x50, Nikon: Action EX 8x40.
EPs: Pentax: XWs; TeleVue: Delites, Panoptic, Plossls & barlows; ES: 68s; Vixen: SLVs; Baader: BCOs, Aspherics, Mark IV; Meade: UWAs & Plossls.
Diagonals: Baader: BBHS silver mirror, Zeiss Spec T2 prism, Clicklock dielectric; TeleVue: Evebrite dielectric.
Filters: Lumicon: DeepSky, UHC, OIII, H-beta; Baader: Moon & SkyGlow, Contrast Booster, UHC-S; Astronomik: UHC, Orion: UltraBlock, SkyGlow.
Observing: DSOs: 1694 (Completed: M110, H1, H2. In progress: H3: 195, H2,500: 1272, S110: 77). Doubles: 1150, Comets: 14, Asteroids: 73
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#24

Post by notFritzArgelander » Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:04 pm

Bigzmey wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:59 pm
notFritzArgelander wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:41 pm
Bigzmey wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:38 pm


Bad sampling can go both ways. :lol: I have not, but would love to try better executed Maks. As for mass produced Gregory Maks, they are not bad. I still prefer SCTs though.
Noted. My experience is that even Gregory Maks have better contrast than SCTs. ;)

Apart from sampling issues there are individual physiological differences and differences in experience of the observers.

I'm very much put off by field curvature aberrations and loss of contrast. Having had a lot of experience with 8" SCTs I had high hopes for the 9.25 SCT "the SCT for folks who hate SCTs" as Ed Ting says if I recall right. It was a disappointment and lived down to my experience of the 8" SCTs. Now the aplanatic Edge 9.25 was wonderful!

I'm looking at a 9.25 or 11 Edge or a VMC260L as my last non feline CAT.
I like the idea of 11" Edge. :D
No doubt. Yet the VMC260L is 6 pounds lighter and is relatively immune to dew problems for the same price. The 9.25 Edge is the budget choice.
Scopes: Refractors: Orion ST80, SV ED80 A f7; Newtonians: Z12 f5; Catadioptrics: VMC110L, Intes MK66. EPs: KK Fujiyama Orthoscopics, 2x Vixen NPLs (40-6mm) and BCOs, Baader Mark IV zooms, TV Panoptics, Delos, Plossl 32-8mm. Mixed brand Masuyama/Astroplans Binoculars: Nikon Aculon 10x50, Celestron 15x70, Baader Maxbright. Mounts: Star Seeker III, Vixen Porta II, Celestron CG5, Orion Sirius EQG
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#25

Post by pakarinen » Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:12 pm

Nice looking scope. I thought the same thing as JT did about the finder being less than optimal.
If you don't understand your noise, you cannot reliably extract a meaningful signal.
~ES

Orion ST120, Meade AdventureScope ST80
Twilight 1 with Astro Devices encoders and Nexus II currently on a Manfrotto 475B tripod
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#26

Post by Lady Fraktor » Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:36 pm

For myself the finder would be replaced anyways with some type of RDF or a RACI
I have only come across one 6x30mm that was actually worth using as it is.
Proper Telescopes: Antares 105 f/15, Celestron 150 f/8, Stellarvue NHNGDX 80 f/6.9, TAL 100RS f/10, TS 102 f/11, UR 70 f/10, Vixen ED115s f/7.7
Mounts: Celestron AS-GT, Celestron CG-5 w/ Argo Navis & tracking motor, SLT w/ pier & tripod mods, Manfrotto 028b w/ SV M2C, Mantrotto 055Pro w/ 128RC, TAL MT1C, Vixen SXP w/ HAL-130 & half pier
Diagonal: 2" A-P Maxbright, 2" Baader Herschel Wedge (P), 2" Zeiss/ Baader Amici Prism (DX2), 2" Orion Amici Prism, 2" Stellarvue DX, 2" TeleVue EverBrite
Eyepieces: Antares to Zeiss
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#27

Post by AntennaGuy » Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:13 pm

There seems to be some at least one new VMC260L for sale, at least as I type this. See:
https://www.adorama.com/vxvmc260l.html (says "in-stock, ready to ship," for $3,499).
(On the other hand, B&H lists it as "discontinued" and "no longer available.")
* Celestron C6 SCT on a Twilight 1 Alt-Az mount
* Meade 323 refractor on a manual equatorial mount.
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#28

Post by AbbN » Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:49 pm

Gabby,

Stop procrastinating and juuuuuust get it as you oooooobviously want it :lol: :lol: :lol:

Have fun!
Abb
TELESCOPES: Celestron Omni XLT 120, Explore Scientific AR102, Orion ST80 Refractors; 8" Skywatcher Dob; Orion Apex 102 Mak; Coronado PST. LENSES: ES 4.7, 6.7, 11, 18 and 30mm 82° EPs; Baader 24mm 68°; Luminos 15mm 82°; Meade 8-24mm Zoom. OTHER: CG4+16" Orion Pier Extension; Celestron Skymaster 20x80 binos etc;
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#29

Post by Voyageur » Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:17 pm

I do really like my VMC200L. Optics are very sharp. (Less contrast than my little APO, and I prefer Saturn and Jupiter through the AT, even though at much lower power.) I have not yet tried collimating it; I think it may be time to give it a shot after all the bouncing and jouncing it endured on its long drive in my van from Michigan to Mexico. I have printed out Vixen's good instructions on collimation...

The light weight is a big reason I chose the VMC200L. Easy to one-hand it atop the mount. Chunky spider vanes are a minor downside. But it's so great not to have the dew problem of a front corrector plate. Scope has kept on performing late into a Michigan night of dew-horror where everything else I have is drenched.

R&P focuser is okay. I would like to have a fine focus option, but it works as is. Of course, the VMC260L has internal focus, moving the primary, so quite different there.

The price difference between the 200 and the 260 is huge, and the 260 is out of my league price-wise, but I think it would be a great scope.
Scopes: Vixen VMC200L, D=200mm, F=1950, f/9.75; Televue 2" Everbright diagonal. Coronado PST; AstroTech EDT 80mm, F=480, f/6.
Mounts: Vixen SXW/Starbook (original); Stellarvue M2C alt-az.
Eyepieces: Televue: 55mm Plossl, 22mm Panoptic, 17.3mm Delos, 13mm Nagler, c. 1980, 11mm Plossl, 7mm Nagler, 5mm Radian; Meade 15mm Super Plossl; VERNONSCOPE 2.4X BARLOW
Binoculars: Leica 8x32 Trinovids, circa 1997; Orion Megaview 20x80, Orion Paragon Plus mount.
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#30

Post by pakarinen » Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:56 pm

Voyageur wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:17 pm
I do really like my VMC200L.
[...]
But it's so great not to have the dew problem of a front corrector plate. Scope has kept on performing late into a Michigan night of dew-horror where everything else I have is drenched.


Beyond my current hobby budget, but an intriguing scope. So I take it that the tube acts as a very good dew shield? Nothing collecting on the primary or on the vanes?
If you don't understand your noise, you cannot reliably extract a meaningful signal.
~ES

Orion ST120, Meade AdventureScope ST80
Twilight 1 with Astro Devices encoders and Nexus II currently on a Manfrotto 475B tripod
Nikon Aculon 10x50 binos
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#31

Post by notFritzArgelander » Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:05 pm

pakarinen wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:56 pm
Voyageur wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:17 pm
I do really like my VMC200L.
[...]
But it's so great not to have the dew problem of a front corrector plate. Scope has kept on performing late into a Michigan night of dew-horror where everything else I have is drenched.


Beyond my current hobby budget, but an intriguing scope. So I take it that the tube acts as a very good dew shield? Nothing collecting on the primary or on the vanes?
Exactly so. Open ended tubes don't have serious dew problems. The tube itself acts as a dew shield. Newtonians in a tube similarly resist dewing. SCTs with their thin corrector plates are most susceptible to dew. Full aperture corrector plate Maksutov scopes with their thicker more massive correctors are less susceptible. Sub aperture Maks like the VMC line and Newts are pretty resistant.
Scopes: Refractors: Orion ST80, SV ED80 A f7; Newtonians: Z12 f5; Catadioptrics: VMC110L, Intes MK66. EPs: KK Fujiyama Orthoscopics, 2x Vixen NPLs (40-6mm) and BCOs, Baader Mark IV zooms, TV Panoptics, Delos, Plossl 32-8mm. Mixed brand Masuyama/Astroplans Binoculars: Nikon Aculon 10x50, Celestron 15x70, Baader Maxbright. Mounts: Star Seeker III, Vixen Porta II, Celestron CG5, Orion Sirius EQG
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#32

Post by Bigzmey » Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:16 pm

So how difficult is VMC collimation? I remember reading some horror stories on CN...
Scopes: Stellarvue: SV102 ED F7; Celestron: 9.25" EdgeHD F10, 8" SCT F10, 6" SCT F10, Omni XLT 150R Achro F5, Onyx 80ED F6.3; Meade: 80ST Achro F5.
Mounts: ES: Twilight I; Bresser: EXOS2; SW: SkyTee2, AzGTi; UA: MicroStar.
Binos: Orion: Little Giant II 15x70, WorldView 10x50, Nikon: Action EX 8x40.
EPs: Pentax: XWs; TeleVue: Delites, Panoptic, Plossls & barlows; ES: 68s; Vixen: SLVs; Baader: BCOs, Aspherics, Mark IV; Meade: UWAs & Plossls.
Diagonals: Baader: BBHS silver mirror, Zeiss Spec T2 prism, Clicklock dielectric; TeleVue: Evebrite dielectric.
Filters: Lumicon: DeepSky, UHC, OIII, H-beta; Baader: Moon & SkyGlow, Contrast Booster, UHC-S; Astronomik: UHC, Orion: UltraBlock, SkyGlow.
Observing: DSOs: 1694 (Completed: M110, H1, H2. In progress: H3: 195, H2,500: 1272, S110: 77). Doubles: 1150, Comets: 14, Asteroids: 73
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#33

Post by UlteriorModem » Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:18 pm

Bigzmey wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:16 pm
So how difficult is VMC collimation? I remember reading some horror stories on CN...
Heh... there are always 'horror stories' on cloudy night even on the simplest of tasks. No shortage of strong opinion over there!
Tom

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#34

Post by SKEtrip » Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:42 pm

UlteriorModem wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:18 pm
Bigzmey wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:16 pm
So how difficult is VMC collimation? I remember reading some horror stories on CN...
Heh... there are always 'horror stories' on cloudy night even on the simplest of tasks. No shortage of strong opinion over there!
Do Tell :popcorn:
AD10, SV102T, AR127 & ST80
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#35

Post by Lady Fraktor » Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:46 pm

If it is not strong opinions it is drama.
I have not been on there since August last year.
Proper Telescopes: Antares 105 f/15, Celestron 150 f/8, Stellarvue NHNGDX 80 f/6.9, TAL 100RS f/10, TS 102 f/11, UR 70 f/10, Vixen ED115s f/7.7
Mounts: Celestron AS-GT, Celestron CG-5 w/ Argo Navis & tracking motor, SLT w/ pier & tripod mods, Manfrotto 028b w/ SV M2C, Mantrotto 055Pro w/ 128RC, TAL MT1C, Vixen SXP w/ HAL-130 & half pier
Diagonal: 2" A-P Maxbright, 2" Baader Herschel Wedge (P), 2" Zeiss/ Baader Amici Prism (DX2), 2" Orion Amici Prism, 2" Stellarvue DX, 2" TeleVue EverBrite
Eyepieces: Antares to Zeiss
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#36

Post by Bigzmey » Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:50 pm

"Ethos or nothing!" - that's an opinion. :D "I struggled for several months trying to collimate the scope" - sounds like a frustrated user. Post #4 is the thread below.

https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/5758 ... observing/
Scopes: Stellarvue: SV102 ED F7; Celestron: 9.25" EdgeHD F10, 8" SCT F10, 6" SCT F10, Omni XLT 150R Achro F5, Onyx 80ED F6.3; Meade: 80ST Achro F5.
Mounts: ES: Twilight I; Bresser: EXOS2; SW: SkyTee2, AzGTi; UA: MicroStar.
Binos: Orion: Little Giant II 15x70, WorldView 10x50, Nikon: Action EX 8x40.
EPs: Pentax: XWs; TeleVue: Delites, Panoptic, Plossls & barlows; ES: 68s; Vixen: SLVs; Baader: BCOs, Aspherics, Mark IV; Meade: UWAs & Plossls.
Diagonals: Baader: BBHS silver mirror, Zeiss Spec T2 prism, Clicklock dielectric; TeleVue: Evebrite dielectric.
Filters: Lumicon: DeepSky, UHC, OIII, H-beta; Baader: Moon & SkyGlow, Contrast Booster, UHC-S; Astronomik: UHC, Orion: UltraBlock, SkyGlow.
Observing: DSOs: 1694 (Completed: M110, H1, H2. In progress: H3: 195, H2,500: 1272, S110: 77). Doubles: 1150, Comets: 14, Asteroids: 73
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#37

Post by UlteriorModem » Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:51 pm

I was trying to be diplomatic :D

Now back on topic! I have no idea how hard it is to collimate a VMC. Cant be much harder than an RC.
Tom

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#38

Post by notFritzArgelander » Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:03 pm

UlteriorModem wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:51 pm
I was trying to be diplomatic :D

Now back on topic! I have no idea how hard it is to collimate a VMC. Cant be much harder than an RC.
CN also has articles decrying the optical quality and telling horror stories of the Smaller VMC110L. The only horror there is that the collimation screws are glued in place at the factory. Once the glue is removed (use as little alcohol as possible) collimation is a snap. I do mine using an artificial star. Easy, peasy.
Scopes: Refractors: Orion ST80, SV ED80 A f7; Newtonians: Z12 f5; Catadioptrics: VMC110L, Intes MK66. EPs: KK Fujiyama Orthoscopics, 2x Vixen NPLs (40-6mm) and BCOs, Baader Mark IV zooms, TV Panoptics, Delos, Plossl 32-8mm. Mixed brand Masuyama/Astroplans Binoculars: Nikon Aculon 10x50, Celestron 15x70, Baader Maxbright. Mounts: Star Seeker III, Vixen Porta II, Celestron CG5, Orion Sirius EQG
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#39

Post by SKEtrip » Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:24 am

Lady Fraktor wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:46 pm
If it is not strong opinions it is drama.
I have not been on there since August last year.
If I've told it before, forgive me.
There was a redneck bar near here when I was a kid.
Everyone would put a few bucks in the pot One of the guys with long hair (has to be a least shoulder length) heads in and tries to touch the back wall and get out
without getting hit. If he pulled it off you he the pot.

That's how it feels to post there.
AD10, SV102T, AR127 & ST80
M2 & SW AZEQ6 GT Mounts
ES82 11 18 24, ES100 5.5 9 14 20, KK Orthos, BCO's, Vixen HR 2.4, 3.4 Vortex 10X50,
ACD 75 Astro Mutt
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." - Robert A. Heinlein

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#40

Post by kt4hx » Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:42 pm

Its a shame really. There are some very knowledgeable people at CN and some top observers that I highly respect as well. But, as has been noted, it can be a bit like tossing a chicken into the pond at a gator park in Florida at times. From what I can tell the ones that I have the most respect for stay out of the cat fights as they have more decorum about them than to get into that malarkey. But some simply can't resist the opportunity to put their egos on display and beat the crap outta someone! :)
Alan

Astro Sky 17.5 f/4.5 Dob || Apertura AD12 f/5 Dob || Zhumell Z10 f/4.9 Dob
ES AR127 f/6.5 & ED80 f/6 on Twilight-II || Apertura 6" f/5 Newtonian on Twilight-I
ES 82° 24mm, 18mm; TV Ethos 100° 13mm; Pentax XW 70° 10mm, 7mm, 5mm + barlows
DGM NPB Filter || Orion Ultra Block, O-III and Sky Glow Filters || Baader HaB Filter
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