Are visual observers a dying breed?

[ewomack]

Having witnessed a fully luminous night sky in a desolate part of South America that had no electricity, I can say that looking up at the mostly blank sky in my heavily light-polluted city makes me a little depressed. I don't know if I'll ever see anything like that again. Were such stunning views more readily accessible, I think naked eye and visual astronomy would make a massive comeback.

Though I've never owned a telescope, I can't imagine buying a programmable one and just letting it do all the observations for me. Being present for the observation is pretty much the point, at least for me. If I bought a telescope, I would want to use it for visual observation and be right there when the primordial light strikes the Earth. At the same time, I identify with the lure of the gadget and understand the fun of a "new toy."

That said, what kind of equipment do people use to get into EP? I'm more curious than anything, but if it allows me to see the sky where I currently can't see the sky, it might prove interesting. I miss looking up in the sky and seeing Orion clearly, which I remember well from years ago. Now I'm lucky to see anything at all.

[jrkirkham]

I am mostly an AP observer whose favorite style is visual. Now THAT sounds like a paradox.

Those that remember me from the old Astronomy Forum years ago might remember that I was almost entirely visual. I enjoyed sketching and star hopping. My favorite thing was completing the various Astronomical League programs. That was before I had retina damage in both eyes and had to have two surgeries and probably will have a couple more in the future. I disappeared from observing for a long time. I seriously considered giving up. I was thankful that I didn't lose my vision, but it was too poor to do what I used to do with the telescope. Then I made the move to AP. The camera became my eyes. I switched from star hopping to goto. Like everyone else I like to take the best pictures I can, but the quality of my shots always comes second to the joy of exploring the universe and learning new things. One thing I appreciate is how much deeper the camera can go than my eyes could, even when they were good.

So I guess I am a visual astronomer that mostly does AP, and I am very grateful for modern technology.

[Bigzmey]

Thanks everyone for stimulating discussion. Seems that my local club does not necessary represent the hobby in general and while AP and VA gaining popularity, there are still plenty visual observers around.

I find social aspect of the hobby fascinating. Sounds like visual observers are underrepresented on forums and in clubs, since they tend to keep to themselves. I used to be like that for the most of my observing carrier. It is only because of extra friendly nature of former AF forum I have gradually warmed up to the idea of posting my observations and participating in the forum challenges. I am glad I did. I also finally decided to join the local club based on the positive feedback and encouragement on AF. All these experiences were tremendously helpful.

Now I am trying to pay it forward and keep harrasing my local astronomical friends to join TSS and or a local club. But they are really stubborn. They love to chat for hours in person and seem to prefer astronomy magazines, books and even Youtube to joining a club or forum.

[kt4hx]

I am mostly an AP observer whose favorite style is visual. Now THAT sounds like a paradox.

Those that remember me from the old Astronomy Forum years ago might remember that I was almost entirely visual. I enjoyed sketching and star hopping. My favorite thing was completing the various Astronomical League programs. That was before I had retina damage in both eyes and had to have two surgeries and probably will have a couple more in the future. I disappeared from observing for a long time. I seriously considered giving up. I was thankful that I didn't lose my vision, but it was too poor to do what I used to do with the telescope. Then I made the move to AP. The camera became my eyes. I switched from star hopping to goto. Like everyone else I like to take the best pictures I can, but the quality of my shots always comes second to the joy of exploring the universe and learning new things. One thing I appreciate is how much deeper the camera can go than my eyes could, even when they were good.

So I guess I am a visual astronomer that mostly does AP, and I am very grateful for modern technology.

Indeed Rob, I remember when you were strictly a visual observer. Despite your difficulties I am very glad that you did not throw in the towel. You found another way by which you could continue to enjoy the night sky when your personal situation changed and I very much applaud your stick-to-it-iveness.

I have often thought about what I would do once I attained an age where I could not easily manage the equipment that I utilize now - the 17.5 inch dob. Or if my eyes degrade to the extent that I would be unable to observe to the same level that I can presently? Would I try to continue struggling under such conditions or would I then start utilizing a smaller go-to scope with something like a Mallincam? As staunch of a visual observer as I am, I do realize that I likely will not be able to do so in the same manner to which I am accustomed to for the rest of my life.

[kt4hx]

Thanks everyone for stimulating discussion. Seems that my local club does not necessary represent the hobby in general and while AP and VA gaining popularity, there are still plenty visual observers around.

I find social aspect of the hobby fascinating. Sounds like visual observers are underrepresented on forums and in clubs, since they tend to keep to themselves. I used to be like that for the most of my observing carrier. It is only because of extra friendly nature of former AF forum I have gradually warmed up to the idea of posting my observations and participating in the forum challenges. I am glad I did. I also finally decided to join the local club based on the positive feedback and encouragement on AF. All these experiences were tremendously helpful.

Now I am trying to pay it forward and keep harrasing my local astronomical friends to join TSS and or a local club. But they are really stubborn. They love to chat for hours in person and seem to prefer astronomy magazines, books and even Youtube to joining a club or forum.

I think there is a much larger interest in astronomy than we see here or on other sites, or even in clubs. Many folks that have an interest may never take the step of obtaining a scope or becoming an active participant in the hobby other than through discussion. I believe the community felt in online sites such as ours can give one a sense of belonging regardless of experience level. I do feel that some tend to sit off to the sides because they may feel intimidated by more experienced members, when in reality they are the true resources that beginners should appreciate and engage. For the most part, many will read without commenting at all because they are uncomfortable exposing their inexperience.

As to the number of visual observers, I do believe they are in greater number than what they may appear to be on hobby sites and perhaps even in clubs. Manually operated scopes and eyepieces are still in demand, and they are finding their way into someone's hands. So there are still a great number of people that are indeed looking up and looking through eyepieces.

[Lady Fraktor]

Honestly never heard of the guy before. Then again, I rarely go to youtube anyway except for some music. I am not impressed by the guy personally.

He does come across as a special category of arse.

[notFritzArgelander]

Honestly never heard of the guy before. Then again, I rarely go to youtube anyway except for some music. I am not impressed by the guy personally.

He does come across as a special category of arse.

Pompous jack-arse perhaps? I wouldn't want to have a beer with the guy to be sure.....

[NGC 1365]

I've seen a few of his youtube videos before, he's just like any of us, has a passion for the hobby which he shares with local schools.

[ARock]

I have a 8" Dob for visual and a ST80 clone on a DIY motorized EQ2/3 mount for AP. I use AP with the ST80 mainly to see things I cannot see with my Dob from my suburban apartment balcony. I spent the first few years with the Dob, observing what I could with my limited view. AP was more of a technical challenge to see if it could be done with my minimalist gear. Now I split my time between both, still adding features to my EQ mount.

I find AP (at least with my gear) much more stressful than visual with the Dob which is almost therapeutic.
But there are those times, when the stress is worth it, like when I have no hope of seeing a Mag 13 supernova with the Dob, but certainly possible with AP on my ST80.

[MistrBadgr]

I think there are plenty of visual observers out there, or there would not be this massive shortage of eyepieces and telescopes right now. I just don't think they are posting or going to dark sites. Mostly, they are taking their scopes out into their back yards and quietly enjoying the view.

I truly hope visual astronomers are not dying out, at least not rapidly, 'cause I am one of them!

[OzEclipse]

For me it's both. One of the things that attracted me to the old Astronomy Forum and then transferred to here was the number of visual observers and quality discussion reporting of visual observations. I especially enjoy Alan and Andrey's reports. I got sick of the Ice in Space forum where they discuss equipment purchases and comparisons endlessly but rarely discuss observing with that equipment.

I have a Vixen VC200L which is basically an astrograph, my 6"f7 with small diagonal optimised for visual observing and my 18" f5.5 a push to dob that is only visual.

My 18" was relatively inaccessible for some months on my friends soggy property due to all the rain where i in fact bogged my Isuzu mid last year. Since moving out here, I still have not moved the 18" out here and hence visual reports have been scarce from me and I have been doing AP.

My friend that owns the previously mentioned waterlogged property, is a purely visual observer.

He has 3 Takashashi scopes:-

TOA150
CN212
Mewlon 300

He also has a couple of eyepieces:
Televue Naglers : 31, 26, 22, 17, 2 x13, 2 x9
Televue Panoptic: 2 x 24
Televue Delos: 14, 10
Takahashi LE’s: 50, 40, 30, 18, 12.5, 7.5, 5
Denkmeir: 2 x 21, 2 x 14
Pentax XW’s: 20, 14, 7, 5,

He uses the eyepiece pairs with his Baader binoviewer.

When observing at his property, I tended to do AP or AP + Visual when I was there alone and visual when I was there with him.

As I have mentioned in other posts, I run a nightscape photography course through a Photographic Art Centre. Our cliental are photographers who want to take pictures of night skies with landscapes. Interest in visual astronomy among that demographic is probably 1/3 interested in some visual, 2/3 there for photography.

Another friend of ours has a 12" RCOS and AP130 on an AP1600 GTO mount and was purely AP. He's coming over to the light. He recently built a second obs with a TOA150 that will be a purely visual scope.

So a mix but I agree that LP is turning people to NB photography, something they can do from homes in the city.

Joe

[pakarinen]

I have a 8" Dob for visual and a ST80 clone [...] I use AP with the ST80 mainly to see things I cannot see with my Dob from my suburban apartment balcony.

I find AP (at least with my gear) much more stressful than visual with the Dob which is almost therapeutic.
[...] like when I have no hope of seeing a Mag 13 supernova with the Dob, but certainly possible with AP on my ST80.

Seems like EAA / near realtime might be the ideal compromise between visual and AP for me given my LP, etc.

Things have come a long way from using a 1970s photomultiplier on an Adler Planetarium scope to show the public brighter DSOs which were invisible from downtown Chicago.

[Greenman]

I began as a visual astronomer, in ‘69 and at fourteen there wasn’t much choice. Driven by and inspired by Apollo, I saw the future in that venture. Strangely I did not see at that time how much impact that space race would have on the development of my hobby or life in general. The first PC, modems giving basic connectivity, the WWW, mobile phones, smart phone’s - there is a direction of travel.

I digress, but this is mirrored in the hobby, the last bastion of home brew, manual operation, learning the sky, star hopping, the first DSLRs, tracking mounts, Goto mounts, CCD’s cheap enough to image with, etc.

One day I think everyone’s introduction to astronomy will be via a screen. VP will be a niche, within the niche of amateur astronomers. Is this a good thing? No, just as with the scientific instruments I have worked with and sold over that period the user is relegated. Away from the nuts and bolts that make things work (and for me make it fun) and towards the role of interested observer.

Unfortunately I feel the direction of travel will continue, and the end of days is writ in the stars for the true ‘hands on’ Amateur astronomer.

Just an old guy’s meanderings...

[ARock]

I have a 8" Dob for visual and a ST80 clone [...] I use AP with the ST80 mainly to see things I cannot see with my Dob from my suburban apartment balcony.

I find AP (at least with my gear) much more stressful than visual with the Dob which is almost therapeutic.
[...] like when I have no hope of seeing a Mag 13 supernova with the Dob, but certainly possible with AP on my ST80.

Seems like EAA / near realtime might be the ideal compromise between visual and AP for me given my LP, etc.

Things have come a long way from using a 1970s photomultiplier on an Adler Planetarium scope to show the public brighter DSOs which were invisible from downtown Chicago.

I have found that near real time with a small aperture scope like my ST80 clone is possible for the brighter DSOs but not for the kind of objects I usually want to get at. You need longer exposures and therefore guiding for these. For example, i could see pluto with the ST80, 5 min exposures, needed to stack 3 of them. With something like a 8 inch SCT, 10 second exposures with Sharpcap can probably see it. But you need a heavier and more expensive setup for it.

For seeing fainter objects with a cheaper lighter setup, I have to use longer exposures, guiding, and some degree of post processing to tease out the details. But being able to see the Flame and Horsehead with a ST80 on a light cheap mount, from a suburban balcony using AP, is well worth the effort it takes.

And while my imaging is not real time, I can usually image, stack, and process wtthin an hour or two.

[SkyHiker]

The role of very affordable optics and electronics has been understated in this thread. Even if you have to spend $5K $10K on a nice AP setup, that is very affordable compared to other expenses like eating out, cars, boats, vacation travel, etcetera. Why would you spend time grinding a mirror and cutting a sonotube if you can buy one for less money? People used to take pride in building their own Dobsonian and enjoy the privilege of viewing through an 8" mirror that very few people had, now you just order one if you want it. It's not special anymore. With the disappearing of the DIY telescope goes a lot of the culture and atmosphere that would nurture visual observers and visit astro parties like the RTMC. Just to get the idea of what kind of feeling I am talking about, check out this great RTMC thread: https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/6800 ... st/page-10 .

The other part is that AP is a great playground for those who like technology. Mechanics, electrical, electronics, computers, software, imaging, AP has it all. If you were inclined towards visual astronomy, it is easy to get distracted into playing with these toys that becomes a goal in itself. And that goal can be big enough that the whole astronomy part becomes a side show. This is a big part of why I do AP myself. I still get exposed to astronomy more than I would have without these toys so I don't feel bad about it.

I also find visual astronomy mostly unspectacular, at least with small scopes like a 12" Dob or less. It becomes interesting once you have a 20" or up, then you can see color. Viewing fuzzy grey blobs does not appeal to me at least not in a city environment. When I get a chance to go viewing in the Sierras under a dark sky, that's more appealing, I can stand doing that for an hour or two with a regular scope. But after that I want nice colorful pictures of it too since I can, why not. Even when it's mostly automated, it is still challenging enough that it feels like a hunt albeit more technology oriented.

[kt4hx]

I think purely manual visual observers, like myself, may be in shorter supply than before. I realize I might be a bit of a dinosaur (Alanosaurus?), but I am comfortable in the simplicity of my ancient ways. It works for me, therefore this old goat will not change unless circumstances beyond my control so dictate.

[notFritzArgelander]

I think purely manual visual observers, like myself, may be in shorter supply than before. I realize I might be a bit of a dinosaur (Alanosaurus?), but I am comfortable in the simplicity of my ancient ways. It works for me, therefore this old goat will not change unless circumstances beyond my control so dictate.

When I went to university and had professional equatorial mounts I got spoiled. I can still star hop if I have to, like when batteries die.

[Bigzmey]

The other part is that AP is a great playground for those who like technology. Mechanics, electrical, electronics, computers, software, imaging, AP has it all. If you were inclined towards visual astronomy, it is easy to get distracted into playing with these toys that becomes a goal in itself.

I got confused there Henk. AP is a great playground for technology, but we are getting destructed with visual equipment? Is that because the visual equipment distracts from AP?

I have picked a pair of good 15x70 binos under $100. They have already provided me with hours of quality observing and I logged over 100 targets with them. What $100 gets you in AP department?

[Bigzmey]

I think purely manual visual observers, like myself, may be in shorter supply than before. I realize I might be a bit of a dinosaur (Alanosaurus?), but I am comfortable in the simplicity of my ancient ways. It works for me, therefore this old goat will not change unless circumstances beyond my control so dictate.

When I went to university and had professional equatorial mounts I got spoiled. I can still star hop if I have to, like when batteries die.

After years with manual mounts I finally decided to try goto. I use it when the sky is too bad for star hopping but I am not enjoying it. Feels like cheating.

[Bigzmey]

I have a 8" Dob for visual and a ST80 clone [...] I use AP with the ST80 mainly to see things I cannot see with my Dob from my suburban apartment balcony.

I find AP (at least with my gear) much more stressful than visual with the Dob which is almost therapeutic.
[...] like when I have no hope of seeing a Mag 13 supernova with the Dob, but certainly possible with AP on my ST80.

Seems like EAA / near realtime might be the ideal compromise between visual and AP for me given my LP, etc.

Things have come a long way from using a 1970s photomultiplier on an Adler Planetarium scope to show the public brighter DSOs which were invisible from downtown Chicago.

I have found that near real time with a small aperture scope like my ST80 clone is possible for the brighter DSOs but not for the kind of objects I usually want to get at. You need longer exposures and therefore guiding for these. For example, i could see pluto with the ST80, 5 min exposures, needed to stack 3 of them. With something like a 8 inch SCT, 10 second exposures with Sharpcap can probably see it. But you need a heavier and more expensive setup for it.

For seeing fainter objects with a cheaper lighter setup, I have to use longer exposures, guiding, and some degree of post processing to tease out the details. But being able to see the Flame and Horsehead with a ST80 on a light cheap mount, from a suburban balcony using AP, is well worth the effort it takes.

And while my imaging is not real time, I can usually image, stack, and process wtthin an hour or two.

Good info AR. I was under impression that EAA could provide you near real time experience, but of cause this is a function of target brightness and aperture. I was contemplating getting EAA setup for faint targets, but I would probably go with a big mirror instead.