Are visual observers a dying breed?

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Re: Are visual observers a dying breed?

#41

Post by notFritzArgelander »


Bigzmey wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:05 pm
notFritzArgelander wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 7:56 pm
kt4hx wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 7:40 pm I think purely manual visual observers, like myself, may be in shorter supply than before. I realize I might be a bit of a dinosaur (Alanosaurus?), but I am comfortable in the simplicity of my ancient ways. It works for me, therefore this old goat will not change unless circumstances beyond my control so dictate. :)
When I went to university and had professional equatorial mounts I got spoiled. I can still star hop if I have to, like when batteries die. :lol:
After years with manual mounts I finally decided to try goto. I use it when the sky is too bad for star hopping but I am not enjoying it. Feels like cheating. :lol:
Well... it isn't illegal, immoral, or fattening. It's just a feeling. :)
Scopes: Refs: Orion ST80, SV 80EDA f7, TS 102ED f11 Newts: AWB 130mm, f5, Z12 f5; Cats: VMC110L, Intes MK66,VMC200L f9.75 EPs: KK Fujiyama Orthoscopics, 2x Vixen NPLs (40-6mm) and BCOs, Baader Mark IV zooms, TV Panoptics, Delos, Plossl 32-8mm. Mixed brand Masuyama/Astroplans Binoculars: Nikon Aculon 10x50, Celestron 15x70, Baader Maxbright. Mounts: Star Seeker IV, Vixen Porta II, Celestron CG5
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Re: Are visual observers a dying breed?

#42

Post by SkyHiker »


Bigzmey wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:01 pm
SkyHiker wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:08 pm The other part is that AP is a great playground for those who like technology. Mechanics, electrical, electronics, computers, software, imaging, AP has it all. If you were inclined towards visual astronomy, it is easy to get distracted into playing with these toys that becomes a goal in itself.
I got confused there Henk. AP is a great playground for technology, but we are getting destructed with visual equipment? Is that because the visual equipment distracts from AP? :lol:
No no. I meant to say that if you went into AP unbiased between AP and visual, once you start playing with all these fun tools you might forget about the visual part and just want to play with the toys.
Bigzmey wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:01 pm I have picked a pair of good 15x70 binos under $100. They have already provided me with hours of quality observing and I logged over 100 targets with them. What $100 gets you in AP department?
(I like my Celestron 20x80s for the same reason BTW, they were $145, I missed out on the sale.)
You don't have to spend $10K for AP.

- With a good tripod and a DSLR you can shoot a panorama of the MW and stitch it with ICE
- If you build a simple Arduino controlled barndoor for $25 you can put a 300 mm zoom on the DSLR, take pictures of large bright DSOs and stack them.
- If you have a Dob (my 10" was $110 with extra pieces) and build an EQ platform with it you can take short exposures at 1250 mm and stack them.
- If you buy an autoguider for $400 and make the EQ platform dual axis autoguided, you are in business for beginner AP
- For $2K you can get an AVX, a Mak-Newt and an autoguider and do serious AP (look at Mac's images with a 102 mm frac)
- If you win the lottery at the RTMC you can get a 127 mm ES ED127CF for free

Just to show that it does not have to be expensive if you keep your goals modest. I have done all of the above so I started out small and cheap. For a comparison, have you checked what a single lens for a Nikon pro DSLR costs? You can buy all of the above for it (except the lottery item). So, for $100 you can't do much, but more than nothing. I recently went deep into the rabbit hole with the G11S, TPO 12" astrograph, ASI2600MM plus accessories adding up to $8K because I could. But I could have stopped at the AVX with a DSLR and be perfectly happy with it. For a hobby, $100 ever is a bit low I think.
... Henk. :D Telescopes: GSO 12" Astrograph, "Comet Hunter" MN152, ES ED127CF, ES ED80, WO Redcat51, Z12, AT6RC, Celestron Skymaster 20x80, Mounts and tripod: Losmandy G11S with OnStep, AVX, Tiltall, Cameras: ASI2600MC, ASI2600MM, ASI120 mini, Fuji X-a1, Canon XSi, T6, ELPH 100HS, DIY: OnStep controller, Pi4b/power rig, Afocal adapter, Foldable Dob base, Az/Alt Dob setting circles, Accessories: ZWO 36 mm filter wheel, TV Paracorr 2, Baader MPCC Mk III, ES FF, SSAG, QHY OAG-M, EAF electronic focuser, Plossls, Barlows, Telrad, Laser collimators (Seben LK1, Z12, Howie Glatter), Cheshire, 2 Orion RACIs 8x50, Software: KStars-Ekos, DSS, PHD2, Nebulosity, Photo Gallery, Gimp, CHDK, Computers:Pi4b, 2x running KStars/Ekos, Toshiba Satellite 17", Website:Henk's astro images
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Re: Are visual observers a dying breed?

#43

Post by Bigzmey »


SkyHiker wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:28 pm
Bigzmey wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:01 pm
SkyHiker wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:08 pm The other part is that AP is a great playground for those who like technology. Mechanics, electrical, electronics, computers, software, imaging, AP has it all. If you were inclined towards visual astronomy, it is easy to get distracted into playing with these toys that becomes a goal in itself.
I got confused there Henk. AP is a great playground for technology, but we are getting destructed with visual equipment? Is that because the visual equipment distracts from AP? :lol:
No no. I meant to say that if you went into AP unbiased between AP and visual, once you start playing with all these fun tools you might forget about the visual part and just want to play with the toys.
Bigzmey wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:01 pm I have picked a pair of good 15x70 binos under $100. They have already provided me with hours of quality observing and I logged over 100 targets with them. What $100 gets you in AP department?
(I like my Celestron 20x80s for the same reason BTW, they were $145, I missed out on the sale.)
You don't have to spend $10K for AP.

- With a good tripod and a DSLR you can shoot a panorama of the MW and stitch it with ICE
- If you build a simple Arduino controlled barndoor for $25 you can put a 300 mm zoom on the DSLR, take pictures of large bright DSOs and stack them.
- If you have a Dob (my 10" was $110 with extra pieces) and build an EQ platform with it you can take short exposures at 1250 mm and stack them.
- If you buy an autoguider for $400 and make the EQ platform dual axis autoguided, you are in business for beginner AP
- For $2K you can get an AVX, a Mak-Newt and an autoguider and do serious AP (look at Mac's images with a 102 mm frac)
- If you win the lottery at the RTMC you can get a 127 mm ES ED127CF for free

Just to show that it does not have to be expensive if you keep your goals modest. I have done all of the above so I started out small and cheap. For a comparison, have you checked what a single lens for a Nikon pro DSLR costs? You can buy all of the above for it (except the lottery item). So, for $100 you can't do much, but more than nothing. I recently went deep into the rabbit hole with the G11S, TPO 12" astrograph, ASI2600MM plus accessories adding up to $8K because I could. But I could have stopped at the AVX with a DSLR and be perfectly happy with it. For a hobby, $100 ever is a bit low I think.
Good info, thanks Henk! I got DSLR with 300mm zoom, I may try it at some point.
Scopes: Stellarvue: SV102ED; Celestron: 9.25" EdgeHD, 8" SCT, 150ST, Onyx 80ED; iOptron: Hankmeister 6" Mak; SW: 7" Mak; Meade: 80ST.
Mounts: SW: SkyTee2, AzGTi; iOptron: AZMP; ES: Twilight I; Bresser: EXOS2; UA: MicroStar.
Binos: APM: 100-90 APO; Canon: IS 15x50; Orion: Binoviewer, LG II 15x70, WV 10x50, Nikon: AE 16x50, 10x50, 8x40.
EPs: Pentax: XWs & XFs; TeleVue: Delites, Panoptic & Plossls; ES: 68, 62; Vixen: SLVs; Baader: BCOs, Aspherics, Mark IV.
Diagonals: Baader: BBHS mirror, Zeiss Spec T2 prism, Clicklock dielectric; TeleVue: Evebrite dielectric; AltairAstro: 2" prism.
Filters: Lumicon: DeepSky, UHC, OIII, H-beta; Baader: Moon & SkyGlow, Contrast Booster, UHC-S, 6-color set; Astronomik: UHC.

Observing: DSOs: 3106 (Completed: Messier, Herschel 1, 2, 3. In progress: H2,500: 2180, S110: 77). Doubles: 2382, Comets: 34, Asteroids: 255
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Re: Are visual observers a dying breed?

#44

Post by MistrBadgr »


Butterfly Maiden wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 10:17 am The majority of my astronomy is with naked eye and binoculars, at least at my current time of life anyway.

I'm not interested in getting into AP either. That's not to say things won't change in the future.

But for the here and now, I'm quite happy doing what I do :D
Hi Vanessa,

I read your posts a couple of times, as I worked my way down the various replies, which gave me time to think about it. A few thoughts wiggled out of the grey mater between my ears that I thought I would share.

The method you are following down your astronomy path is a very patient and disciplined one that will allow you to learn and keep all those little things about the sky that I wish would stick in my head. You are content with what you have, which I think are some very nice instruments, as well as a good set of eyes. You are looking at the "glass half full," rather than the "glass half empty," which can certainly aid in being happy with what you do as you do it.

With that mental methodology, I think you will always keep these forms of astronomy, but will not be afraid to gradually add other skills or facets of astronomy to your repertoire, as your interest is inspired, without giving up the ones you have now. Your approach is a wise one that can last you the rest of your life.
Bill Steen
Many small scopes, plus a Lightbridge 12, LX 70-8R,6R,6M
Many eyepieces, just not really expensive ones.
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Re: Are visual observers a dying breed?

#45

Post by 515bonner »


I'm about 90% visual. The other 10% is imaging only moon and planets.
I find it more pleasing to seeing an object in the eyepiece.
I find it amusing that there are people that know NOTHING about the night sky, but seeing artistic space images on the net want to do the same thing.
Why amusing? They have no idea what all goes into getting those images. They go out and buy $5000-$10000 worth of equipment because so and so says THIS is what you need. Then they have nothing but problems with the mount, or problems with the multitude of images they acquire, or problems with the processing. Yeah, I know, it has a high learning curve and consumes mass quantities of time.
It takes nothing though to take a 14.5" dob with a 27mm Panoptic out to a dark sky sight and still have your socks blown off on the sights to be seen.
AP? I can find and look at images all over the internet for free.
Call me old fashioned.
14.5" f/5.3 Starmaster with Sky Commander XP4 | 9.25" Celestron SCT | 8" f/7 Starmaster (only 5 made) with Sky Commander V3
6" f/12 Orion 150mm Mak | 4" f/9 Celestron Refractor (Vixen) | 80mm f4 unbranded refractor
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Re: Are visual observers a dying breed?

#46

Post by ARock »


Bigzmey wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:14 pm Good info AR. I was under impression that EAA could provide you near real time experience, but of cause this is a function of target brightness and aperture. I was contemplating getting EAA setup for faint targets, but I would probably go with a big mirror instead.
Given the gear you have, you could try the ST80 (because it is much lighter than the 80ED) on the AZ-GTi with a wedge, or motorize the EXOS-2 with ONSTEP and try the 6" SCT with a focal reducer on it.

This will tell you quickly if EAA/AP is for you :)
AR
Scopes: Zhumell Z8, Meade Adventure 80mm, Bushnell 1300x100 Goto Mak.
Mount: ES EXOS Nano EQ Mount, DIY Arduino+Stepper drives.
AP: 50mm guidescope, AR0130 based guidecam, Canon T3i, UHC filter.
EPs: ES82 18,11,6.7mm, Zhumell 30,9mm FJ Ortho 9mm, assorted plossls, Meade 2x S-F Barlow, DGM NPB filter.
Binos: Celestron Skymaster 15x70 (Albott tripod/monopod), Nikon Naturalist 7x35.
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Re: Are visual observers a dying breed?

#47

Post by Bigzmey »


ARock wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 9:50 pm
Bigzmey wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:14 pm Good info AR. I was under impression that EAA could provide you near real time experience, but of cause this is a function of target brightness and aperture. I was contemplating getting EAA setup for faint targets, but I would probably go with a big mirror instead.
Given the gear you have, you could try the ST80 (because it is much lighter than the 80ED) on the AZ-GTi with a wedge, or motorize the EXOS-2 with ONSTEP and try the 6" SCT with a focal reducer on it.

This will tell you quickly if EAA/AP is for you :)
Thanks AR. I have acquired AZ-GTi with EAA in mind, but then got sidetracked. One day, maybe. :)
Scopes: Stellarvue: SV102ED; Celestron: 9.25" EdgeHD, 8" SCT, 150ST, Onyx 80ED; iOptron: Hankmeister 6" Mak; SW: 7" Mak; Meade: 80ST.
Mounts: SW: SkyTee2, AzGTi; iOptron: AZMP; ES: Twilight I; Bresser: EXOS2; UA: MicroStar.
Binos: APM: 100-90 APO; Canon: IS 15x50; Orion: Binoviewer, LG II 15x70, WV 10x50, Nikon: AE 16x50, 10x50, 8x40.
EPs: Pentax: XWs & XFs; TeleVue: Delites, Panoptic & Plossls; ES: 68, 62; Vixen: SLVs; Baader: BCOs, Aspherics, Mark IV.
Diagonals: Baader: BBHS mirror, Zeiss Spec T2 prism, Clicklock dielectric; TeleVue: Evebrite dielectric; AltairAstro: 2" prism.
Filters: Lumicon: DeepSky, UHC, OIII, H-beta; Baader: Moon & SkyGlow, Contrast Booster, UHC-S, 6-color set; Astronomik: UHC.

Observing: DSOs: 3106 (Completed: Messier, Herschel 1, 2, 3. In progress: H2,500: 2180, S110: 77). Doubles: 2382, Comets: 34, Asteroids: 255
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Re: Are visual observers a dying breed?

#48

Post by OzEclipse »


ARock wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:15 pm
I have found that near real time with a small aperture scope like my ST80 clone is possible for the brighter DSOs but not for the kind of objects I usually want to get at. You need longer exposures and therefore guiding for these. For example, i could see pluto with the ST80, 5 min exposures, needed to stack 3 of them. With something like a 8 inch SCT, 10 second exposures with Sharpcap can probably see it. But you need a heavier and more expensive setup for it.

For seeing fainter objects with a cheaper lighter setup, I have to use longer exposures, guiding, and some degree of post processing to tease out the details. But being able to see the Flame and Horsehead with a ST80 on a light cheap mount, from a suburban balcony using AP, is well worth the effort it takes.

And while my imaging is not real time, I can usually image, stack, and process wtthin an hour or two.

I can't speak about CCD/CMOS cameras. I use a high sensitivity analogue monochrome video, a Watec 910BD. With my 8" Vixen cassegrain, I can just image around magnitude 14.2 in near real time at about 5 frames per second and around mag 11 with an ST 80 also at 5fps or around mag 14 at 2s exposures. I have it for imaging and recording stars for asteroidal occultations.

Stars/ sensitivity are not the problem with these high gain systems, it's dynamic range. Most digital sensors, including DSLR's have an inversely proportional relationship between gain/ISO and dynamic range. It does not display bright DSO's very well at all even with the gain turned down. You can adjust the gain to see either the core or the outer extremities of Orion etc. Some fainter low contrast galaxies might display better.

I have another much cheaper colour security camera that I bought from Aliexpress two years ago for about USD60. It is around 2 magnitudes less sensitive, with a 5x3mm sensor and has sat in a box ever since. I have a 5" car video monitor that cost another $15. My intention is to build a video finderscope for my 18" dob with the video display mounted at the stalk where the NEXUS digital setting circle controller sits. Attached to a 50mm f1.7 lens, it has a 5x4 deg field. With an 80mm f2.8 the field is 3.6x2.6.

For me these two devices are only an event recording mechanism and a finder that stop me having to scoot up and down a ladder. I could imagine using the Watec for something like near real time checking galaxies for supernovae. I have a Tacos BD (Arduino microcontroller) piggybacked on the Watec giving me control of the video system at the computer via an app. It allows exposures up to about 5 seconds which might get me to about mag 16/17.

For me these two systems are only an event recording mechanism and a finder, not as replacement for aesthetic visual observing.

Joe
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Amateur astronomer since 1978...................Web site : http://joe-cali.com/
Scopes: ATM 18" Dob, Vixen VC200L, ATM 6"f7, Stellarvue 102ED, Saxon ED80, WO M70 ED, Orion 102 Maksutov, ST80.
Mounts: Takahashi EM-200, iOptron iEQ45, Push dobsonian with Nexus DSC, three homemade EQ's.
Eyepieces: TV Naglers 31, 17, 12, 7; Denkmeier D21 & D14; Pentax XW10, XW5, Unitron 40mm Kellner, Meade Or 25,12
Cameras : Pentax K1, K5, K01, K10D / VIDEO CAMS : TacosBD, Lihmsec.
Cam/guider/controllers: Lacerta MGEN 3, SW Synguider, Simulation Curriculum SkyFi 3+Sky safari
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Re: Are visual observers a dying breed?

#49

Post by ARock »


OzEclipse wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 10:41 pm
ARock wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:15 pm
I have found that near real time with a small aperture scope like my ST80 clone is possible for the brighter DSOs but not for the kind of objects I usually want to get at. You need longer exposures and therefore guiding for these. For example, i could see pluto with the ST80, 5 min exposures, needed to stack 3 of them. With something like a 8 inch SCT, 10 second exposures with Sharpcap can probably see it. But you need a heavier and more expensive setup for it.

For seeing fainter objects with a cheaper lighter setup, I have to use longer exposures, guiding, and some degree of post processing to tease out the details. But being able to see the Flame and Horsehead with a ST80 on a light cheap mount, from a suburban balcony using AP, is well worth the effort it takes.

And while my imaging is not real time, I can usually image, stack, and process wtthin an hour or two.

I can't speak about CCD/CMOS cameras. I use a high sensitivity analogue monochrome video, a Watec 910BD. With my 8" Vixen cassegrain, I can just image around magnitude 14.2 in near real time at about 5 frames per second and around mag 11 with an ST 80 also at 5fps or around mag 14 at 2s exposures. I have it for imaging and recording stars for asteroidal occultations.
What kind of skies, is this from? 2s for Mag 14 with a ST80 is indeed impressive. From my Bortle 7 skies with a ST80 and DSLR, I could see the Mag 14 pluto with 3/5 min exposures (ISO=400), but barely distinguishable from noise.
AR
Scopes: Zhumell Z8, Meade Adventure 80mm, Bushnell 1300x100 Goto Mak.
Mount: ES EXOS Nano EQ Mount, DIY Arduino+Stepper drives.
AP: 50mm guidescope, AR0130 based guidecam, Canon T3i, UHC filter.
EPs: ES82 18,11,6.7mm, Zhumell 30,9mm FJ Ortho 9mm, assorted plossls, Meade 2x S-F Barlow, DGM NPB filter.
Binos: Celestron Skymaster 15x70 (Albott tripod/monopod), Nikon Naturalist 7x35.
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Re: Are visual observers a dying breed?

#50

Post by Bigzmey »


Aren't human eyes just amazing? You can see extended faint nebula and stars as pinpoints of light simultaneously.
Scopes: Stellarvue: SV102ED; Celestron: 9.25" EdgeHD, 8" SCT, 150ST, Onyx 80ED; iOptron: Hankmeister 6" Mak; SW: 7" Mak; Meade: 80ST.
Mounts: SW: SkyTee2, AzGTi; iOptron: AZMP; ES: Twilight I; Bresser: EXOS2; UA: MicroStar.
Binos: APM: 100-90 APO; Canon: IS 15x50; Orion: Binoviewer, LG II 15x70, WV 10x50, Nikon: AE 16x50, 10x50, 8x40.
EPs: Pentax: XWs & XFs; TeleVue: Delites, Panoptic & Plossls; ES: 68, 62; Vixen: SLVs; Baader: BCOs, Aspherics, Mark IV.
Diagonals: Baader: BBHS mirror, Zeiss Spec T2 prism, Clicklock dielectric; TeleVue: Evebrite dielectric; AltairAstro: 2" prism.
Filters: Lumicon: DeepSky, UHC, OIII, H-beta; Baader: Moon & SkyGlow, Contrast Booster, UHC-S, 6-color set; Astronomik: UHC.

Observing: DSOs: 3106 (Completed: Messier, Herschel 1, 2, 3. In progress: H2,500: 2180, S110: 77). Doubles: 2382, Comets: 34, Asteroids: 255
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Re: Are visual observers a dying breed?

#51

Post by OzEclipse »


Technology in Visual Observing. - GOTO etc

I have a chronic lower back problem. So while I still have my knowledge of the sky acquired over decades of "analogue" observing, and can use a finder to star hop, my observing sessions can go much longer if I use GOTO on my EQ mount, or the NEXUS DSC on the 18" dob and avoid the contortions, bending and twisting and scooting up and down the ladder pushing, moving the ladder while star hopping. The technology is there, why not use it. The Nexus makes the scope much easier to use. But I still know my way around the sky and one night when an encoder cable developed a bad connection, I went to using the Telrad and star hopping. Then I tracked down the cable and replaced it some days later.

On the other hand, I have a friend who has two observatories on his small acreage residential property near Canberra (Bortle 3 skies). He has always used a GOTO mount - AP1600GTO with a RCOS 12" and a Takahashi TOA150. He has no clue as to what is in the sky above his head without technological assistance. A few of us were at his place late last winter when Jupiter and Saturn were at opposition. We looked at a couple of well-known bright DSO's (Eta Carina, Jewel Box, Lagoon and Triffid) then he asked in all seriousness, "Is there anything else to look at?" Without even thinking, I instinctively replied, "plenty." We all looked at each other and laughed and he just shook his head and said, "I really need to learn my way around the sky." Later after we had looked at Jupiter, he said, "Is Saturn up?" I said it was and he asked where it was. I replied, "Next to Jupiter!"

When using my old 6" f7 reflector, I still prefer to star hop on my old push to mounting. The cradle introduces a large cone error when mounted on the Takahashi EM200 mount. Many modern mountings don't have nice clutches for push to operation and the EM200 is in that category. Release the axis lock and they flop. I have two 40 year old home made mounts, constructed around the time I made the 6" reflector. One has a drive, one doesn't but both have very smooth clutches for easy push operation. This makes a big difference for manual operation. My 6" newt also it has lovely tube rotation rings that let me swing the finder into a comfortable position for almost any part of the sky, very easily and it has a lovely 8x50mm homemade finder made from a binocular objective.

So the point of all this is that I don't think that you need to choose either GOTO or manual. It really depends upon many factors.

Joe
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Amateur astronomer since 1978...................Web site : http://joe-cali.com/
Scopes: ATM 18" Dob, Vixen VC200L, ATM 6"f7, Stellarvue 102ED, Saxon ED80, WO M70 ED, Orion 102 Maksutov, ST80.
Mounts: Takahashi EM-200, iOptron iEQ45, Push dobsonian with Nexus DSC, three homemade EQ's.
Eyepieces: TV Naglers 31, 17, 12, 7; Denkmeier D21 & D14; Pentax XW10, XW5, Unitron 40mm Kellner, Meade Or 25,12
Cameras : Pentax K1, K5, K01, K10D / VIDEO CAMS : TacosBD, Lihmsec.
Cam/guider/controllers: Lacerta MGEN 3, SW Synguider, Simulation Curriculum SkyFi 3+Sky safari
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Re: Are visual observers a dying breed?

#52

Post by kt4hx »


Bigzmey wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:05 pm
notFritzArgelander wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 7:56 pm
kt4hx wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 7:40 pm I think purely manual visual observers, like myself, may be in shorter supply than before. I realize I might be a bit of a dinosaur (Alanosaurus?), but I am comfortable in the simplicity of my ancient ways. It works for me, therefore this old goat will not change unless circumstances beyond my control so dictate. :)
When I went to university and had professional equatorial mounts I got spoiled. I can still star hop if I have to, like when batteries die. :lol:
After years with manual mounts I finally decided to try goto. I use it when the sky is too bad for star hopping but I am not enjoying it. Feels like cheating. :lol:
No, not cheating at all Andrey. Just a different means to an end. I feel that any method a person chooses is fine, as the key element is to get them out under the night sky.

I have never utilized a go-to system, but I did have an Argo Navis push-to system on my 17.5 inch originally. However, after using it a few times I simply found it not to my liking and removed it to sell. I am heavily biased to visual observation because it is what I grew up with. The manual methodology dictated that I learn the sky in order to find the targets I sought. The knowledge of the sky has been enriching to me, and allows me to feel at one with the universe around me. I have many old friends up there that reliably return every year.

Waxing a bit sentimental here, but for me, observing with my eyes and my mind contemplating what I see, is the ultimate for me. Standing in awe under a dark sky bearing nightly witness to the seemingly silent and motionless violence occurring constantly in the universe around us gives me a visceral sense of vulnerability. Simply put, for me it is quite the heady experience. :)
Alan

Scopes: Astro Sky 17.5 f/4.5 Dob || Apertura AD12 f/5 Dob || Zhumell Z10 f/4.9 Dob ||
ES AR127 f/6.5 || ES ED80 f/6 || Apertura 6" f/5 Newtonian
Mounts: ES Twilight-II and Twilight-I
EPs: AT 82° 28mm UWA || TV Ethos 100° 21mm and 13mm || Vixen LVW 65° 22mm ||
ES 82° 18mm || Pentax XW 70° 10mm, 7mm and 5mm || barlows
Filters (2 inch): DGM NPB || Orion Ultra Block, O-III and Sky Glow || Baader HaB
Primary Field Atlases: Uranometria All-Sky Edition and Interstellarum Deep Sky Atlas
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"Astronomers, we look into the past to see our future." (me)
"Seeing is in some respect an art, which must be learnt." (William Herschel)
"What we know is a drop, what we don't know is an ocean." (Sir Isaac Newton)
"No good deed goes unpunished." (various)
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Re: Are visual observers a dying breed?

#53

Post by Bigzmey »


OzEclipse wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 11:19 pm Technology in Visual Observing. - GOTO etc

I have a chronic lower back problem. So while I still have my knowledge of the sky acquired over decades of "analogue" observing, and can use a finder to star hop, my observing sessions can go much longer if I use GOTO on my EQ mount, or the NEXUS DSC on the 18" dob and avoid the contortions, bending and twisting and scooting up and down the ladder pushing, moving the ladder while star hopping. The technology is there, why not use it. The Nexus makes the scope much easier to use. But I still know my way around the sky and one night when an encoder cable developed a bad connection, I went to using the Telrad and star hopping. Then I tracked down the cable and replaced it some days later.

On the other hand, I have a friend who has two observatories on his small acreage residential property near Canberra (Bortle 3 skies). He has always used a GOTO mount - AP1600GTO with a RCOS 12" and a Takahashi TOA150. He has no clue as to what is in the sky above his head without technological assistance. A few of us were at his place late last winter when Jupiter and Saturn were at opposition. We looked at a couple of well-known bright DSO's (Eta Carina, Jewel Box, Lagoon and Triffid) then he asked in all seriousness, "Is there anything else to look at?" Without even thinking, I instinctively replied, "plenty." We all looked at each other and laughed and he just shook his head and said, "I really need to learn my way around the sky." Later after we had looked at Jupiter, he said, "Is Saturn up?" I said it was and he asked where it was. I replied, "Next to Jupiter!"

When using my old 6" f7 reflector, I still prefer to star hop on my old push to mounting. The cradle introduces a large cone error when mounted on the Takahashi EM200 mount. Many modern mountings don't have nice clutches for push to operation and the EM200 is in that category. Release the axis lock and they flop. I have two 40 year old home made mounts, constructed around the time I made the 6" reflector. One has a drive, one doesn't but both have very smooth clutches for easy push operation. This makes a big difference for manual operation. My 6" newt also it has lovely tube rotation rings that let me swing the finder into a comfortable position for almost any part of the sky, very easily and it has a lovely 8x50mm homemade finder made from a binocular objective.

So the point of all this is that I don't think that you need to choose either GOTO or manual. It really depends upon many factors.

Joe
Agreed! There is no wrong way to enjoy the sky, and as we already discussed if you under light polluted urban skies technology is a necessity. However, if one is lucky to have an access to dark skies it would be a shame not to learn constellations at the very least.

I go on my dark site trips heavily equipped, but even then I spent an hour easily just stargazing with naked eyes, tracing constellations, walking Milky Way, looking at the favorite asterisms and stars, picking naked eye DSOs. I would not have it any other way. Give me a green laser and I can entertain family and friends for hours.
Scopes: Stellarvue: SV102ED; Celestron: 9.25" EdgeHD, 8" SCT, 150ST, Onyx 80ED; iOptron: Hankmeister 6" Mak; SW: 7" Mak; Meade: 80ST.
Mounts: SW: SkyTee2, AzGTi; iOptron: AZMP; ES: Twilight I; Bresser: EXOS2; UA: MicroStar.
Binos: APM: 100-90 APO; Canon: IS 15x50; Orion: Binoviewer, LG II 15x70, WV 10x50, Nikon: AE 16x50, 10x50, 8x40.
EPs: Pentax: XWs & XFs; TeleVue: Delites, Panoptic & Plossls; ES: 68, 62; Vixen: SLVs; Baader: BCOs, Aspherics, Mark IV.
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Filters: Lumicon: DeepSky, UHC, OIII, H-beta; Baader: Moon & SkyGlow, Contrast Booster, UHC-S, 6-color set; Astronomik: UHC.

Observing: DSOs: 3106 (Completed: Messier, Herschel 1, 2, 3. In progress: H2,500: 2180, S110: 77). Doubles: 2382, Comets: 34, Asteroids: 255
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Re: Are visual observers a dying breed?

#54

Post by OzEclipse »


ARock wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 10:57 pm
I can't speak about CCD/CMOS cameras. I use a high sensitivity analogue monochrome video, a Watec 910BD. With my 8" Vixen cassegrain, I can just image around magnitude 14.2 in near real time at about 5 frames per second and around mag 11 with an ST 80 also at 5fps or around mag 14 at 2s exposures. I have it for imaging and recording stars for asteroidal occultations.
What kind of skies, is this from? 2s for Mag 14 with a ST80 is indeed impressive. From my Bortle 7 skies with a ST80 and DSLR, I could see the Mag 14 pluto with 3/5 min exposures (ISO=400), but barely distinguishable from noise.
[/quote]

Arock,
I think the night I measured the mag 14.2 star, was from a Bortle 2/3 sky and it was with an 8" cass at 5 frames per second. I extrapolated that with an ST80(1/6 of the area of an 8") that I could reach the same mag with a 2s exposure, 10 x longer. I have not verified this.

But I note you say distinguish from the noise not distinguish from background sky. The SNR of the video system and the quality of sky LP are two different factors admittedly with some overlap. But the system I am describing gives no aesthetic viewing pleasure. It is sensitive for detecting stars, that's all.
Joe
Last edited by OzEclipse on Tue Feb 16, 2021 11:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Amateur astronomer since 1978...................Web site : http://joe-cali.com/
Scopes: ATM 18" Dob, Vixen VC200L, ATM 6"f7, Stellarvue 102ED, Saxon ED80, WO M70 ED, Orion 102 Maksutov, ST80.
Mounts: Takahashi EM-200, iOptron iEQ45, Push dobsonian with Nexus DSC, three homemade EQ's.
Eyepieces: TV Naglers 31, 17, 12, 7; Denkmeier D21 & D14; Pentax XW10, XW5, Unitron 40mm Kellner, Meade Or 25,12
Cameras : Pentax K1, K5, K01, K10D / VIDEO CAMS : TacosBD, Lihmsec.
Cam/guider/controllers: Lacerta MGEN 3, SW Synguider, Simulation Curriculum SkyFi 3+Sky safari
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Re: Are visual observers a dying breed?

#55

Post by OzEclipse »


kt4hx wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 11:24 pm No, not cheating at all Andrey. Just a different means to an end. I feel that any method a person chooses is fine, as the key element is to get them out under the night sky.

I have never utilized a go-to system, but I did have an Argo Navis push-to system on my 17.5 inch originally. However, after using it a few times I simply found it not to my liking and removed it to sell. I am heavily biased to visual observation because it is what I grew up with. The manual methodology dictated that I learn the sky in order to find the targets I sought. The knowledge of the sky has been enriching to me, and allows me to feel at one with the universe around me. I have many old friends up there that reliably return every year.

Waxing a bit sentimental here, but for me, observing with my eyes and my mind contemplating what I see, is the ultimate for me. Standing in awe under a dark sky bearing nightly witness to the seemingly silent and motionless violence occurring constantly in the universe around us gives me a visceral sense of vulnerability. Simply put, for me it is quite the heady experience. :)
Alan,

My 18" push to dob has the Nexus system. I have never used the Argo Navis so I can't compare but the Nexus is really nice to use. I twist the stalk so that the display faces the eyepiece when I am up the ladder. I get it close and then, usually, it is in the 0.5 degree field of a 17mm Nagler. But from my position up the ladder, I can see two arrows and two numbers showing ALT/AZ direction and degrees difference to the object.

On nights when I am doing photography only, my scope doesn't need much attention during the run of sub-exposures. I'll sometimes used to take a nap in the car and now that I observe from home, go inside. But I frequently like to simply sit outside in a comfortable chair, 9x63 binos in my lap and just watch the Earth turn or do some bino observations. Sitting under a good dark sky is such a privilege!

Thanks for opening up this discussion.

Joe
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Amateur astronomer since 1978...................Web site : http://joe-cali.com/
Scopes: ATM 18" Dob, Vixen VC200L, ATM 6"f7, Stellarvue 102ED, Saxon ED80, WO M70 ED, Orion 102 Maksutov, ST80.
Mounts: Takahashi EM-200, iOptron iEQ45, Push dobsonian with Nexus DSC, three homemade EQ's.
Eyepieces: TV Naglers 31, 17, 12, 7; Denkmeier D21 & D14; Pentax XW10, XW5, Unitron 40mm Kellner, Meade Or 25,12
Cameras : Pentax K1, K5, K01, K10D / VIDEO CAMS : TacosBD, Lihmsec.
Cam/guider/controllers: Lacerta MGEN 3, SW Synguider, Simulation Curriculum SkyFi 3+Sky safari
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Re: Are visual observers a dying breed?

#56

Post by Bigzmey »


kt4hx wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 11:24 pm
Bigzmey wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:05 pm
notFritzArgelander wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 7:56 pm

When I went to university and had professional equatorial mounts I got spoiled. I can still star hop if I have to, like when batteries die. :lol:
After years with manual mounts I finally decided to try goto. I use it when the sky is too bad for star hopping but I am not enjoying it. Feels like cheating. :lol:
No, not cheating at all Andrey. Just a different means to an end. I feel that any method a person chooses is fine, as the key element is to get them out under the night sky.

I have never utilized a go-to system, but I did have an Argo Navis push-to system on my 17.5 inch originally. However, after using it a few times I simply found it not to my liking and removed it to sell. I am heavily biased to visual observation because it is what I grew up with. The manual methodology dictated that I learn the sky in order to find the targets I sought. The knowledge of the sky has been enriching to me, and allows me to feel at one with the universe around me. I have many old friends up there that reliably return every year.

Waxing a bit sentimental here, but for me, observing with my eyes and my mind contemplating what I see, is the ultimate for me. Standing in awe under a dark sky bearing nightly witness to the seemingly silent and motionless violence occurring constantly in the universe around us gives me a visceral sense of vulnerability. Simply put, for me it is quite the heady experience. :)
Evolve and adapt! GoTo was a necessary adaptation for increasing LP at my home and now days I would highly recommend GoTo to anyone starting in urban area. My second adaptation was switching from paper charts and atlases to SkySafari on my phone. I probably look like a contradiction with phone in one hand, operating may manual mount with another, and then scribing notes under the red light in my paper logbook. But this is the way I find most productive and enjoyable.
Scopes: Stellarvue: SV102ED; Celestron: 9.25" EdgeHD, 8" SCT, 150ST, Onyx 80ED; iOptron: Hankmeister 6" Mak; SW: 7" Mak; Meade: 80ST.
Mounts: SW: SkyTee2, AzGTi; iOptron: AZMP; ES: Twilight I; Bresser: EXOS2; UA: MicroStar.
Binos: APM: 100-90 APO; Canon: IS 15x50; Orion: Binoviewer, LG II 15x70, WV 10x50, Nikon: AE 16x50, 10x50, 8x40.
EPs: Pentax: XWs & XFs; TeleVue: Delites, Panoptic & Plossls; ES: 68, 62; Vixen: SLVs; Baader: BCOs, Aspherics, Mark IV.
Diagonals: Baader: BBHS mirror, Zeiss Spec T2 prism, Clicklock dielectric; TeleVue: Evebrite dielectric; AltairAstro: 2" prism.
Filters: Lumicon: DeepSky, UHC, OIII, H-beta; Baader: Moon & SkyGlow, Contrast Booster, UHC-S, 6-color set; Astronomik: UHC.

Observing: DSOs: 3106 (Completed: Messier, Herschel 1, 2, 3. In progress: H2,500: 2180, S110: 77). Doubles: 2382, Comets: 34, Asteroids: 255
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Re: Are visual observers a dying breed?

#57

Post by pakarinen »


Re: “cheating”, I understand the feeling, but then I ask myself, “what is cheating?”

Anything but naked eye, eyeglasses, binos, scopes, setting circles, push-to, go-to, night vision, EAA, AP?

But that’s a philosophical debate; one needs to do what one feels comfortable.

Anyway, if not EAA for the sake of EAA, I could definitely see it (no pun) if my eyes started giving me trouble and I needed a big picture on a screen.
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Re: Are visual observers a dying breed?

#58

Post by Arctic »


ARock wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 6:45 am I have a 8" Dob for visual ...
But there are those times, when the stress is worth it, like when I have no hope of seeing a Mag 13 supernova with the Dob, but certainly possible with AP on my ST80.
In a reasonably dark sky, that 13th mag supernova should be very doable with your 8-inch Dob...
Gordon
Scopes: Meade LX10 8" SCT, Explore Scientific AR102 Refractor on ES Twilight 1 Mount, Oberwerks 15X70 Binos, Nikon Action Extreme 10X50 Binos.
Eyepieces: ES 68* 24mm, ES 68* 20mm, ES 82* 11mm, ES 82* 8.8mm
Observing: Messier Objects--110/110, H1 Objects-- 400/400. Hundreds of additional NGC Objects. Significant Comets: Kohoutek, West, Halley, Hyakatake, Hale-Bopp, McNair, Neowise. Transits of Mercury and Venus.
2017 Total Solar Eclipse
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Re: Are visual observers a dying breed?

#59

Post by kt4hx »


Arctic wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 1:01 am
ARock wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 6:45 am I have a 8" Dob for visual ...
But there are those times, when the stress is worth it, like when I have no hope of seeing a Mag 13 supernova with the Dob, but certainly possible with AP on my ST80.
In a reasonably dark sky, that 13th mag supernova should be very doable with your 8-inch Dob...
Agree Gordon. He stated he is in a Bortle 7 area, but as we know the Bortle scale is not a fixed assessment - it varies night to night typically (and sometimes hour to hour). If his average is around B7, his zenith naked eye limit may be around 5.0 (only he can confirm this). So with an 8 inch, he should be able to reach into the lower end of the 14th mag in terms of stellar objects under the best conditions at his location. Therefore, depending upon true conditions at the time and where the SN falls within the 13th mag range (big difference between 13.0 and 13.9) it may well be within reach, albeit, faintly.
Alan

Scopes: Astro Sky 17.5 f/4.5 Dob || Apertura AD12 f/5 Dob || Zhumell Z10 f/4.9 Dob ||
ES AR127 f/6.5 || ES ED80 f/6 || Apertura 6" f/5 Newtonian
Mounts: ES Twilight-II and Twilight-I
EPs: AT 82° 28mm UWA || TV Ethos 100° 21mm and 13mm || Vixen LVW 65° 22mm ||
ES 82° 18mm || Pentax XW 70° 10mm, 7mm and 5mm || barlows
Filters (2 inch): DGM NPB || Orion Ultra Block, O-III and Sky Glow || Baader HaB
Primary Field Atlases: Uranometria All-Sky Edition and Interstellarum Deep Sky Atlas
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"Astronomers, we look into the past to see our future." (me)
"Seeing is in some respect an art, which must be learnt." (William Herschel)
"What we know is a drop, what we don't know is an ocean." (Sir Isaac Newton)
"No good deed goes unpunished." (various)
Some people without brains do an awful lot of talking, don't you think?” (Scarecrow, The Wonderful Wizard of Oz)
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Re: Are visual observers a dying breed?

#60

Post by John Donne »


I am a visual observer.
I have given telescopes to grandchildren and actively observed with them to give them the opportunity to explore the interest.

On the old forum I used to post quit often my observing sessions. Over this last year I have not had the opportunities of sky and the result is less observing posts.
I always have enjoyed reading other's post.


I do not lament if others do not enjoy the activity as I enjoy it, but I always enjoy showing folks what is up there.
It is good for the soul. 😊

Clear skies!
SCOPES :ES127 f7.5, SW100 f9 Evostar, ES80 F6, LXD75 8" f10 SCT, 2120 10" f10 SCT, ES152 f6.5.
MOUNTS: SW AZ/EQ5, MEADE LXD75, CELESTRON CG4, Farpoint Parallelogram.
BINOCULARS: CL 10X30, Pentax 8X43, 25X100 Oberwerks.
EP: Many.

"I am more than a sum of molecules.
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