As one who routinely observes underkt4hx wrote: ↑Wed Feb 17, 2021 1:26 amAgree Gordon. He stated he is in aBortle 7 area, but as we know theBortle scale is not a fixed assessment - it varies night to night typically (and sometimes hour to hour). If his average is around B7, his zenith naked eye limit may be around 5.0 (only he can confirm this). So with an 8 inch, he should be able to reach into the lower end of the 14th mag in terms of stellar objects under the best conditions at his location. Therefore, depending upon true conditions at the time and where the SN falls within the 13th mag range (big difference between 13.0 and 13.9) it may well be within reach, albeit, faintly.
Are visual observers a dying breed?
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Re: Are visual observers a dying breed?
Scopes: Stellarvue: SV102ED; Celestron: 9.25" EdgeHD, 8" SCT, 150ST, Onyx 80ED; iOptron: Hankmeister 6" Mak; SW: 7" Mak; Meade: 80ST.
Mounts: SW: SkyTee2, AzGTi; iOptron: AZMP; ES: Twilight I; Bresser: EXOS2; UA: MicroStar.
Binos: APM: 100-90 APO; Canon: IS 15x50; Orion: Binoviewer, LG II 15x70, WV 10x50, Nikon: AE 16x50, 10x50, 8x40.
EPs: Pentax: XWs & XFs; TeleVue: Delites, Panoptic & Plossls; ES: 68, 62; Vixen: SLVs; Baader: BCOs, Aspherics, Mark IV.
Diagonals: Baader: BBHS mirror, Zeiss Spec T2 prism, Clicklock dielectric; TeleVue: Evebrite dielectric; AltairAstro: 2" prism.
Filters: Lumicon: DeepSky, UHC, OIII, H-beta; Baader: Moon & SkyGlow, Contrast Booster, UHC-S, 6-color set; Astronomik: UHC.
Observing: DSOs: 3106 (Completed: Messier, Herschel 1, 2, 3. In progress: H2,500: 2180, S110: 77). Doubles: 2382, Comets: 34, Asteroids: 255
Mounts: SW: SkyTee2, AzGTi; iOptron: AZMP; ES: Twilight I; Bresser: EXOS2; UA: MicroStar.
Binos: APM: 100-90 APO; Canon: IS 15x50; Orion: Binoviewer, LG II 15x70, WV 10x50, Nikon: AE 16x50, 10x50, 8x40.
EPs: Pentax: XWs & XFs; TeleVue: Delites, Panoptic & Plossls; ES: 68, 62; Vixen: SLVs; Baader: BCOs, Aspherics, Mark IV.
Diagonals: Baader: BBHS mirror, Zeiss Spec T2 prism, Clicklock dielectric; TeleVue: Evebrite dielectric; AltairAstro: 2" prism.
Filters: Lumicon: DeepSky, UHC, OIII, H-beta; Baader: Moon & SkyGlow, Contrast Booster, UHC-S, 6-color set; Astronomik: UHC.
Observing: DSOs: 3106 (Completed: Messier, Herschel 1, 2, 3. In progress: H2,500: 2180, S110: 77). Doubles: 2382, Comets: 34, Asteroids: 255
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Re: Are visual observers a dying breed?
Well, with the 8"kt4hx wrote: ↑Wed Feb 17, 2021 1:26 amAgree Gordon. He stated he is in aBortle 7 area, but as we know theBortle scale is not a fixed assessment - it varies night to night typically (and sometimes hour to hour). If his average is around B7, his zenith naked eye limit may be around 5.0 (only he can confirm this). So with an 8 inch, he should be able to reach into the lower end of the 14th mag in terms of stellar objects under the best conditions at his location. Therefore, depending upon true conditions at the time and where the SN falls within the 13th mag range (big difference between 13.0 and 13.9) it may well be within reach, albeit, faintly.
Yes a dark site would be better.
But that is really the main choice, figure out the logistics for a rare dark site trip...or get into observational
AR
Scopes: Zhumell Z8, Meade Adventure 80mm, Bushnell 1300x100 Goto Mak.
Mount: ES EXOS Nano EQ Mount, DIY Arduino+Stepper drives.
AP: 50mm guidescope, AR0130 based guidecam, Canon T3i, UHC filter.
EPs: ES82 18,11,6.7mm, Zhumell 30,9mm FJ Ortho 9mm, assorted plossls, Meade 2x S-F Barlow, DGM NPB filter.
Binos: Celestron Skymaster 15x70 (Albott tripod/monopod), Nikon Naturalist 7x35.
Scopes: Zhumell Z8, Meade Adventure 80mm, Bushnell 1300x100 Goto Mak.
Mount: ES EXOS Nano EQ Mount, DIY Arduino+Stepper drives.
AP: 50mm guidescope, AR0130 based guidecam, Canon T3i, UHC filter.
EPs: ES82 18,11,6.7mm, Zhumell 30,9mm FJ Ortho 9mm, assorted plossls, Meade 2x S-F Barlow, DGM NPB filter.
Binos: Celestron Skymaster 15x70 (Albott tripod/monopod), Nikon Naturalist 7x35.
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Re: Are visual observers a dying breed?
Keeping dark adaptation is definitely a challenge on top of other things.ARock wrote: ↑Wed Feb 17, 2021 2:14 amWell, with the 8"kt4hx wrote: ↑Wed Feb 17, 2021 1:26 amAgree Gordon. He stated he is in aBortle 7 area, but as we know theBortle scale is not a fixed assessment - it varies night to night typically (and sometimes hour to hour). If his average is around B7, his zenith naked eye limit may be around 5.0 (only he can confirm this). So with an 8 inch, he should be able to reach into the lower end of the 14th mag in terms of stellar objects under the best conditions at his location. Therefore, depending upon true conditions at the time and where the SN falls within the 13th mag range (big difference between 13.0 and 13.9) it may well be within reach, albeit, faintly.Dob I can see upto Mag 11 Stars and "feel like I saw" upto Mag 12 with all the tricks I know on a good night. Part of the problem is, no way to fully dark adapt in a brightly lit apartment complex. The maps say my area isBortle 7 it might be worse in reality at least in some directions.
Yes a dark site would be better.
But that is really the main choice, figure out the logistics for a rare dark site trip...or get into observationalAP from the balcony to "see" more on more nights.
Scopes: Stellarvue: SV102ED; Celestron: 9.25" EdgeHD, 8" SCT, 150ST, Onyx 80ED; iOptron: Hankmeister 6" Mak; SW: 7" Mak; Meade: 80ST.
Mounts: SW: SkyTee2, AzGTi; iOptron: AZMP; ES: Twilight I; Bresser: EXOS2; UA: MicroStar.
Binos: APM: 100-90 APO; Canon: IS 15x50; Orion: Binoviewer, LG II 15x70, WV 10x50, Nikon: AE 16x50, 10x50, 8x40.
EPs: Pentax: XWs & XFs; TeleVue: Delites, Panoptic & Plossls; ES: 68, 62; Vixen: SLVs; Baader: BCOs, Aspherics, Mark IV.
Diagonals: Baader: BBHS mirror, Zeiss Spec T2 prism, Clicklock dielectric; TeleVue: Evebrite dielectric; AltairAstro: 2" prism.
Filters: Lumicon: DeepSky, UHC, OIII, H-beta; Baader: Moon & SkyGlow, Contrast Booster, UHC-S, 6-color set; Astronomik: UHC.
Observing: DSOs: 3106 (Completed: Messier, Herschel 1, 2, 3. In progress: H2,500: 2180, S110: 77). Doubles: 2382, Comets: 34, Asteroids: 255
Mounts: SW: SkyTee2, AzGTi; iOptron: AZMP; ES: Twilight I; Bresser: EXOS2; UA: MicroStar.
Binos: APM: 100-90 APO; Canon: IS 15x50; Orion: Binoviewer, LG II 15x70, WV 10x50, Nikon: AE 16x50, 10x50, 8x40.
EPs: Pentax: XWs & XFs; TeleVue: Delites, Panoptic & Plossls; ES: 68, 62; Vixen: SLVs; Baader: BCOs, Aspherics, Mark IV.
Diagonals: Baader: BBHS mirror, Zeiss Spec T2 prism, Clicklock dielectric; TeleVue: Evebrite dielectric; AltairAstro: 2" prism.
Filters: Lumicon: DeepSky, UHC, OIII, H-beta; Baader: Moon & SkyGlow, Contrast Booster, UHC-S, 6-color set; Astronomik: UHC.
Observing: DSOs: 3106 (Completed: Messier, Herschel 1, 2, 3. In progress: H2,500: 2180, S110: 77). Doubles: 2382, Comets: 34, Asteroids: 255
- kt4hx
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Re: Are visual observers a dying breed?
Well the one thing I can tell you, no map depicts theARock wrote: ↑Wed Feb 17, 2021 2:14 amWell, with the 8"kt4hx wrote: ↑Wed Feb 17, 2021 1:26 amAgree Gordon. He stated he is in aBortle 7 area, but as we know theBortle scale is not a fixed assessment - it varies night to night typically (and sometimes hour to hour). If his average is around B7, his zenith naked eye limit may be around 5.0 (only he can confirm this). So with an 8 inch, he should be able to reach into the lower end of the 14th mag in terms of stellar objects under the best conditions at his location. Therefore, depending upon true conditions at the time and where the SN falls within the 13th mag range (big difference between 13.0 and 13.9) it may well be within reach, albeit, faintly.Dob I can see upto Mag 11 Stars and "feel like I saw" upto Mag 12 with all the tricks I know on a good night. Part of the problem is, no way to fully dark adapt in a brightly lit apartment complex. The maps say my area isBortle 7 it might be worse in reality at least in some directions.
Yes a dark site would be better.
But that is really the main choice, figure out the logistics for a rare dark site trip...or get into observationalAP from the balcony to "see" more on more nights.
Anyway, based on an NELM of mag 5.0, with an 8 inch scope, one should be able to reach to around 14.0. However, that would only be the case under the best of conditions. Not being able to dark adapt fully obviously would degrade that factor, as would other atmospheric conditions. Take a look at the
https://skyandtelescope.org/astronomy-r ... sky-scale/
Alan
Scopes: Astro Sky 17.5 f/4.5 Dob || Apertura AD12 f/5 Dob || Zhumell Z10 f/4.9 Dob ||
ES AR127 f/6.5 || ES ED80 f/6 || Apertura 6" f/5 Newtonian
Mounts: ES Twilight-II and Twilight-I
EPs: AT 82° 28mm UWA || TV Ethos 100° 21mm and 13mm || Vixen LVW 65° 22mm ||
ES 82° 18mm || Pentax XW 70° 10mm, 7mm and 5mm || barlows
Filters (2 inch): DGM NPB || Orion Ultra Block, O-III and Sky Glow || Baader HaB
Primary Field Atlases: Uranometria All-Sky Edition and Interstellarum Deep Sky Atlas
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Astronomers, we look into the past to see our future." (me)
"Seeing is in some respect an art, which must be learnt." (William Herschel)
"What we know is a drop, what we don't know is an ocean." (Sir Isaac Newton)
"No good deed goes unpunished." (various)
“Some people without brains do an awful lot of talking, don't you think?” (Scarecrow, The Wonderful Wizard of Oz)
Scopes: Astro Sky 17.5 f/4.5 Dob || Apertura AD12 f/5 Dob || Zhumell Z10 f/4.9 Dob ||
ES AR127 f/6.5 || ES ED80 f/6 || Apertura 6" f/5 Newtonian
Mounts: ES Twilight-II and Twilight-I
EPs: AT 82° 28mm UWA || TV Ethos 100° 21mm and 13mm || Vixen LVW 65° 22mm ||
ES 82° 18mm || Pentax XW 70° 10mm, 7mm and 5mm || barlows
Filters (2 inch): DGM NPB || Orion Ultra Block, O-III and Sky Glow || Baader HaB
Primary Field Atlases: Uranometria All-Sky Edition and Interstellarum Deep Sky Atlas
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Astronomers, we look into the past to see our future." (me)
"Seeing is in some respect an art, which must be learnt." (William Herschel)
"What we know is a drop, what we don't know is an ocean." (Sir Isaac Newton)
"No good deed goes unpunished." (various)
“Some people without brains do an awful lot of talking, don't you think?” (Scarecrow, The Wonderful Wizard of Oz)
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Re: Are visual observers a dying breed?
From the description, I would say the Sky iskt4hx wrote: ↑Wed Feb 17, 2021 2:51 am
Anyway, based on an NELM of mag 5.0, with an 8 inch scope, one should be able to reach to around 14.0. However, that would only be the case under the best of conditions. Not being able to dark adapt fully obviously would degrade that factor, as would other atmospheric conditions. Take a look at the Bortle scale at the link below and see what kind of estimate you come up with for your local conditions.
https://skyandtelescope.org/astronomy-r ... sky-scale/
The description does say that for a
But it is what it is, I have an idea of what I can see with the
AR
Scopes: Zhumell Z8, Meade Adventure 80mm, Bushnell 1300x100 Goto Mak.
Mount: ES EXOS Nano EQ Mount, DIY Arduino+Stepper drives.
AP: 50mm guidescope, AR0130 based guidecam, Canon T3i, UHC filter.
EPs: ES82 18,11,6.7mm, Zhumell 30,9mm FJ Ortho 9mm, assorted plossls, Meade 2x S-F Barlow, DGM NPB filter.
Binos: Celestron Skymaster 15x70 (Albott tripod/monopod), Nikon Naturalist 7x35.
Scopes: Zhumell Z8, Meade Adventure 80mm, Bushnell 1300x100 Goto Mak.
Mount: ES EXOS Nano EQ Mount, DIY Arduino+Stepper drives.
AP: 50mm guidescope, AR0130 based guidecam, Canon T3i, UHC filter.
EPs: ES82 18,11,6.7mm, Zhumell 30,9mm FJ Ortho 9mm, assorted plossls, Meade 2x S-F Barlow, DGM NPB filter.
Binos: Celestron Skymaster 15x70 (Albott tripod/monopod), Nikon Naturalist 7x35.
- kt4hx
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Re: Are visual observers a dying breed?
Honestly sounds like you might be about aARock wrote: ↑Wed Feb 17, 2021 3:17 amFrom the description, I would say the Sky iskt4hx wrote: ↑Wed Feb 17, 2021 2:51 am
Anyway, based on an NELM of mag 5.0, with an 8 inch scope, one should be able to reach to around 14.0. However, that would only be the case under the best of conditions. Not being able to dark adapt fully obviously would degrade that factor, as would other atmospheric conditions. Take a look at the Bortle scale at the link below and see what kind of estimate you come up with for your local conditions.
https://skyandtelescope.org/astronomy-r ... sky-scale/Bortle 7-8, although I have never seen a glimpse of M31 or M44 by naked eyes (not that I have tried hard).
The description does say that for aBortle 7 sky a 32cm reflector would barely reach Mag 14.
But it is what it is, I have an idea of what I can see with theDob in my environment. It is good to have another option, rather than miss out on interestingDSOs and astronomical events.
My backyard at home is typically
Anyway you are of course correct and it is what it is, and no matter where we live, we have to work within the limits imposed upon us. I fully understand we each need to do what allows us to achieve the most pleasure from this hobby. I hope that you can get away from that situation from time to time to enjoy the pleasures of a darker environment. It certainly is a game changer.
Alan
Scopes: Astro Sky 17.5 f/4.5 Dob || Apertura AD12 f/5 Dob || Zhumell Z10 f/4.9 Dob ||
ES AR127 f/6.5 || ES ED80 f/6 || Apertura 6" f/5 Newtonian
Mounts: ES Twilight-II and Twilight-I
EPs: AT 82° 28mm UWA || TV Ethos 100° 21mm and 13mm || Vixen LVW 65° 22mm ||
ES 82° 18mm || Pentax XW 70° 10mm, 7mm and 5mm || barlows
Filters (2 inch): DGM NPB || Orion Ultra Block, O-III and Sky Glow || Baader HaB
Primary Field Atlases: Uranometria All-Sky Edition and Interstellarum Deep Sky Atlas
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Astronomers, we look into the past to see our future." (me)
"Seeing is in some respect an art, which must be learnt." (William Herschel)
"What we know is a drop, what we don't know is an ocean." (Sir Isaac Newton)
"No good deed goes unpunished." (various)
“Some people without brains do an awful lot of talking, don't you think?” (Scarecrow, The Wonderful Wizard of Oz)
Scopes: Astro Sky 17.5 f/4.5 Dob || Apertura AD12 f/5 Dob || Zhumell Z10 f/4.9 Dob ||
ES AR127 f/6.5 || ES ED80 f/6 || Apertura 6" f/5 Newtonian
Mounts: ES Twilight-II and Twilight-I
EPs: AT 82° 28mm UWA || TV Ethos 100° 21mm and 13mm || Vixen LVW 65° 22mm ||
ES 82° 18mm || Pentax XW 70° 10mm, 7mm and 5mm || barlows
Filters (2 inch): DGM NPB || Orion Ultra Block, O-III and Sky Glow || Baader HaB
Primary Field Atlases: Uranometria All-Sky Edition and Interstellarum Deep Sky Atlas
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Astronomers, we look into the past to see our future." (me)
"Seeing is in some respect an art, which must be learnt." (William Herschel)
"What we know is a drop, what we don't know is an ocean." (Sir Isaac Newton)
"No good deed goes unpunished." (various)
“Some people without brains do an awful lot of talking, don't you think?” (Scarecrow, The Wonderful Wizard of Oz)
- MistrBadgr
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Re: Are visual observers a dying breed?
Personally, I think all the forms of astronomy are great. I do not do some of them as they are either not interesting to me, I do not have the ability, or they are way too expensive. However, I think they are all great activities that take a person away from things like mind rotting programs on television or life wasting excesses in video games.
Bill Steen
Many small scopes, plus a Lightbridge 12, LX 70-8R,6R,6M
Many eyepieces, just not really expensive ones.
Many small scopes, plus a Lightbridge 12, LX 70-8R,6R,6M
Many eyepieces, just not really expensive ones.
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Re: Are visual observers a dying breed?
True that some of us have experienced degraded sky conditions over time. When I started up the hobby again after a long hiatus in 2012 (and I also joined AF.net) the Milky Way was faintly visible in Cygnus on summer eves. It no longer is visible at all due to a new streetlight that was installed across the street and newish neighbors with encroaching lights. NELM is about 4 now and sometimes 3. The towel over the head trick works to an extent but I am limited to galaxies of about 10.5-11.0 magnitude now. A second home is in the offing eventually, probably in rural Nevada. I also have turned to more planetary and lunar observing which I used to eschew for the most part.
-Michael
Refractors: ES AR152 f/6.5 Achromat on Twilight II, Celestron 102mm XLT f/9.8 on Celestron Heavy Duty Alt Az mount, KOWA 90mm spotting scope
Binoculars: Celestron SkyMaster 15x70, Bushnell 10x50
Eyepieces: Various, GSO Superview, 9mm Plossl, Celestron 25mm Plossl
Camera: ZWO ASI 120
Naked Eye: Two Eyeballs
Latitude: 48.7229° N
Refractors: ES AR152 f/6.5 Achromat on Twilight II, Celestron 102mm XLT f/9.8 on Celestron Heavy Duty Alt Az mount, KOWA 90mm spotting scope
Binoculars: Celestron SkyMaster 15x70, Bushnell 10x50
Eyepieces: Various, GSO Superview, 9mm Plossl, Celestron 25mm Plossl
Camera: ZWO ASI 120
Naked Eye: Two Eyeballs
Latitude: 48.7229° N
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Re: Are visual observers a dying breed?
When you already gained some experience one can find targets even under light polluted sky. Moon, planets, doubles, carbons, variable stars, asteroids, brighter open clusters and asterisms stand to LP quite well. However, starting observing under such conditions could be intimidating.
Scopes: Stellarvue: SV102ED; Celestron: 9.25" EdgeHD, 8" SCT, 150ST, Onyx 80ED; iOptron: Hankmeister 6" Mak; SW: 7" Mak; Meade: 80ST.
Mounts: SW: SkyTee2, AzGTi; iOptron: AZMP; ES: Twilight I; Bresser: EXOS2; UA: MicroStar.
Binos: APM: 100-90 APO; Canon: IS 15x50; Orion: Binoviewer, LG II 15x70, WV 10x50, Nikon: AE 16x50, 10x50, 8x40.
EPs: Pentax: XWs & XFs; TeleVue: Delites, Panoptic & Plossls; ES: 68, 62; Vixen: SLVs; Baader: BCOs, Aspherics, Mark IV.
Diagonals: Baader: BBHS mirror, Zeiss Spec T2 prism, Clicklock dielectric; TeleVue: Evebrite dielectric; AltairAstro: 2" prism.
Filters: Lumicon: DeepSky, UHC, OIII, H-beta; Baader: Moon & SkyGlow, Contrast Booster, UHC-S, 6-color set; Astronomik: UHC.
Observing: DSOs: 3106 (Completed: Messier, Herschel 1, 2, 3. In progress: H2,500: 2180, S110: 77). Doubles: 2382, Comets: 34, Asteroids: 255
Mounts: SW: SkyTee2, AzGTi; iOptron: AZMP; ES: Twilight I; Bresser: EXOS2; UA: MicroStar.
Binos: APM: 100-90 APO; Canon: IS 15x50; Orion: Binoviewer, LG II 15x70, WV 10x50, Nikon: AE 16x50, 10x50, 8x40.
EPs: Pentax: XWs & XFs; TeleVue: Delites, Panoptic & Plossls; ES: 68, 62; Vixen: SLVs; Baader: BCOs, Aspherics, Mark IV.
Diagonals: Baader: BBHS mirror, Zeiss Spec T2 prism, Clicklock dielectric; TeleVue: Evebrite dielectric; AltairAstro: 2" prism.
Filters: Lumicon: DeepSky, UHC, OIII, H-beta; Baader: Moon & SkyGlow, Contrast Booster, UHC-S, 6-color set; Astronomik: UHC.
Observing: DSOs: 3106 (Completed: Messier, Herschel 1, 2, 3. In progress: H2,500: 2180, S110: 77). Doubles: 2382, Comets: 34, Asteroids: 255
- kt4hx
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Re: Are visual observers a dying breed?
It is indeed an unfortunate truth that many folks begin their experiences under such conditions. While it is entirely possible to become an excellent observer and learn to see many objects under such tough conditions, as you say Andrey, it sure makes the initial learning curve really steep.Bigzmey wrote: ↑Wed Feb 17, 2021 8:41 pm When you already gained some experience one can find targets even under light polluted sky. Moon, planets, doubles, carbons, variable stars, asteroids, brighter open clusters and asterisms stand to LP quite well. However, starting observing under such conditions could be intimidating.
Alan
Scopes: Astro Sky 17.5 f/4.5 Dob || Apertura AD12 f/5 Dob || Zhumell Z10 f/4.9 Dob ||
ES AR127 f/6.5 || ES ED80 f/6 || Apertura 6" f/5 Newtonian
Mounts: ES Twilight-II and Twilight-I
EPs: AT 82° 28mm UWA || TV Ethos 100° 21mm and 13mm || Vixen LVW 65° 22mm ||
ES 82° 18mm || Pentax XW 70° 10mm, 7mm and 5mm || barlows
Filters (2 inch): DGM NPB || Orion Ultra Block, O-III and Sky Glow || Baader HaB
Primary Field Atlases: Uranometria All-Sky Edition and Interstellarum Deep Sky Atlas
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Astronomers, we look into the past to see our future." (me)
"Seeing is in some respect an art, which must be learnt." (William Herschel)
"What we know is a drop, what we don't know is an ocean." (Sir Isaac Newton)
"No good deed goes unpunished." (various)
“Some people without brains do an awful lot of talking, don't you think?” (Scarecrow, The Wonderful Wizard of Oz)
Scopes: Astro Sky 17.5 f/4.5 Dob || Apertura AD12 f/5 Dob || Zhumell Z10 f/4.9 Dob ||
ES AR127 f/6.5 || ES ED80 f/6 || Apertura 6" f/5 Newtonian
Mounts: ES Twilight-II and Twilight-I
EPs: AT 82° 28mm UWA || TV Ethos 100° 21mm and 13mm || Vixen LVW 65° 22mm ||
ES 82° 18mm || Pentax XW 70° 10mm, 7mm and 5mm || barlows
Filters (2 inch): DGM NPB || Orion Ultra Block, O-III and Sky Glow || Baader HaB
Primary Field Atlases: Uranometria All-Sky Edition and Interstellarum Deep Sky Atlas
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Astronomers, we look into the past to see our future." (me)
"Seeing is in some respect an art, which must be learnt." (William Herschel)
"What we know is a drop, what we don't know is an ocean." (Sir Isaac Newton)
"No good deed goes unpunished." (various)
“Some people without brains do an awful lot of talking, don't you think?” (Scarecrow, The Wonderful Wizard of Oz)
- The Wave Catcher
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Re: Are visual observers a dying breed?
I’ve been a casual astronomer most of my life. With the increase of LED lighting and nearby Amazon warehouses my skies are about Bortle 8 but I can still enjoy visual observations with my little telescope. I’m no stranger to what’s possible with bigger scopes and the limitations of mine. I still enjoy star hopping to targets that I picked out earlier. Even with my skies it seems that I’ll never run out of new objects to find. Everyone is different and I keep my expectations down to earth. I also like that I can set my telescope up in about 2 minutes, carry it around in a backpack, and it requires no power.
For me visual astronomy is a very personal experience though I do desire to share it. In my circle of astronomer friends I too am the only visual observer. I think in any hobby one should do what makes them happy. However, I do feel that some beginners are missing out on some of the magical experiences of visual observations.
I have dabbled in simple astrophotography, moon shots, Venus transits, partial eclipses, etc. so I’m certainly not against astrophotography. I may someday get heavily intoAP too, who knows.
Steve
Fort Worth
For me visual astronomy is a very personal experience though I do desire to share it. In my circle of astronomer friends I too am the only visual observer. I think in any hobby one should do what makes them happy. However, I do feel that some beginners are missing out on some of the magical experiences of visual observations.
I have dabbled in simple astrophotography, moon shots, Venus transits, partial eclipses, etc. so I’m certainly not against astrophotography. I may someday get heavily into
Steve
Fort Worth
Steve Yates
Astro-Tech AT102ED, 102 mm, F/7, ED Achromatic Refractor
Astro-Tech AT80ED, 80 mm, F/7, ED Achromatic Refractor
Bresser AR102s, 102 mm, f/4.5, Achromatic Refractor
Explore Scientific Twilight I Alt/Az Mount
Bresser Nano Alt/Az Mount
Astro-Tech AT102ED, 102 mm, F/7, ED Achromatic Refractor
Astro-Tech AT80ED, 80 mm, F/7, ED Achromatic Refractor
Bresser AR102s, 102 mm, f/4.5, Achromatic Refractor
Explore Scientific Twilight I Alt/Az Mount
Bresser Nano Alt/Az Mount
- OzEclipse
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Re: Are visual observers a dying breed?
I have been mentoring and advising someone on equipment purchases and introduction into astronomy over the past 18 months. At one point, he wanted to buy an overpriced 2nd hand Takahashi FOA60mm refractor for USD1800 as his first scope. He'd read and fallen for the small premium refractor is better than a much large aperture reflector. I put the brakes on and convinced him to be patient.
For less money, we found him a Takahashi Mewlon 180C which he is now delighted with. He is a keen visual observer but was somewhat dismayed at the appearance of faint galaxies and nebulae.
One piece of advice I've given him is to triage his observing program. I've suggested that he should concentrate on observing open clusters, double stars, planets and the Moon from his light polluted home in the city. On his less frequent trips to darker skies, target nebulae, globular clusters, planetary nebulae, and galaxies.
Joe
For less money, we found him a Takahashi Mewlon 180C which he is now delighted with. He is a keen visual observer but was somewhat dismayed at the appearance of faint galaxies and nebulae.
One piece of advice I've given him is to triage his observing program. I've suggested that he should concentrate on observing open clusters, double stars, planets and the Moon from his light polluted home in the city. On his less frequent trips to darker skies, target nebulae, globular clusters, planetary nebulae, and galaxies.
Joe
Amateur astronomer since 1978...................Web site : http://joe-cali.com/
Scopes: ATM 18" Dob, Vixen VC200L, ATM 6"f7, Stellarvue 102ED, Saxon ED80, WO M70 ED, Orion 102 Maksutov, ST80.
Mounts: Takahashi EM-200, iOptron iEQ45, Push dobsonian with Nexus DSC, three homemade EQ's.
Eyepieces: TV Naglers 31, 17, 12, 7; Denkmeier D21 & D14; Pentax XW10, XW5, Unitron 40mm Kellner, Meade Or 25,12
Cameras : Pentax K1, K5, K01, K10D / VIDEO CAMS : TacosBD, Lihmsec.
Cam/guider/controllers: Lacerta MGEN 3, SW Synguider, Simulation Curriculum SkyFi 3+Sky safari
Memberships Astronomical Association of Queensland; RASNZ Occultations Section; Single Exposure Milky Way Facebook Group (Moderator) (12k members)
- chris_g
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Re: Are visual observers a dying breed?
I'm new to the hobby and have yet to buy my first telescope. I've been into digital photography since 97. I've been into PC tech since 83. I've loved staring at the night sky on camping trips until the wee hours but those times were rare and I've always lived in heavy LP areas until recently. Then the convergence of Saturn and Jupiter last December ignited my desire into AP when I was actually able to capture then with my cell phone.
The idea of hooking up a PC to a scope and camera really sparks me up. But I'm going to need something to do while it's doing it's work so I'll need to do visual too. I remember wondering on those dark nights when I was camping if there was life around those little dots of lights. I could also at least identify Polaris.
The idea of hooking up a PC to a scope and camera really sparks me up. But I'm going to need something to do while it's doing it's work so I'll need to do visual too. I remember wondering on those dark nights when I was camping if there was life around those little dots of lights. I could also at least identify Polaris.
Image Cam: Canon 6D (Ha mod), 600D (Stock), SVBony SV405CC
Image OTA: EvoStar ED80, WO Z73, C8-A XLT
Mount: EQ6-R Pro Pier, AZ-EQ5 Pro Pier
Guide OTA: Orion 60mm, WO 32mm, ZWO OAG, SV501P
Guide Cam: ZWO 120mm, 290mm mini
EAA OTA: Orion ST80
EAA Cam: SVBony SV705C
EP: Baader Hyperion Modular Set
Filters: L-Pro Canon EOS C, L-eNhance, L-Pro, Optolong Ha 7mm, Optolong Oiii 6.5mm, Optolong Sii 6.5mm, ES H-Beta
Session Control: Mini PC/Win11 Pro, APT 4.1, PHD2 2.6.10
Processing: PixInsight, DSS 4.2.6, Adobe PS CC, Astronomy Tools Action Set, Star Spikes Pro
Image OTA: EvoStar ED80, WO Z73, C8-A XLT
Mount: EQ6-R Pro Pier, AZ-EQ5 Pro Pier
Guide OTA: Orion 60mm, WO 32mm, ZWO OAG, SV501P
Guide Cam: ZWO 120mm, 290mm mini
EAA OTA: Orion ST80
EAA Cam: SVBony SV705C
EP: Baader Hyperion Modular Set
Filters: L-Pro Canon EOS C, L-eNhance, L-Pro, Optolong Ha 7mm, Optolong Oiii 6.5mm, Optolong Sii 6.5mm, ES H-Beta
Session Control: Mini PC/Win11 Pro, APT 4.1, PHD2 2.6.10
Processing: PixInsight, DSS 4.2.6, Adobe PS CC, Astronomy Tools Action Set, Star Spikes Pro
- kt4hx
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Re: Are visual observers a dying breed?
Welcome to astronomy and the site Chris. Any method that gets you out under a sky is a good one. But I would encourage you to continue the notion of doing visual as well. Learning the sky, such as the dominant stars, major constellations and which planet is which without having to look them up every time makes your journey more pleasurable and allows you to teach others about the sky as well. As I like to say, the more we learn, the more fun we have. And the more fun we have, the more we learn.chris_g wrote: ↑Thu Feb 18, 2021 5:08 am I'm new to the hobby and have yet to buy my first telescope. I've been into digital photography since 97. I've been into PC tech since 83. I've loved staring at the night sky on camping trips until the wee hours but those times were rare and I've always lived in heavy LP areas until recently. Then the convergence of Saturn and Jupiter last December ignited my desire into AP when I was actually able to capture then with my cell phone.
The idea of hooking up a PC to a scope and camera really sparks me up. But I'm going to need something to do while it's doing it's work so I'll need to do visual too. I remember wondering on those dark nights when I was camping if there was life around those little dots of lights. I could also at least identify Polaris.
Alan
Scopes: Astro Sky 17.5 f/4.5 Dob || Apertura AD12 f/5 Dob || Zhumell Z10 f/4.9 Dob ||
ES AR127 f/6.5 || ES ED80 f/6 || Apertura 6" f/5 Newtonian
Mounts: ES Twilight-II and Twilight-I
EPs: AT 82° 28mm UWA || TV Ethos 100° 21mm and 13mm || Vixen LVW 65° 22mm ||
ES 82° 18mm || Pentax XW 70° 10mm, 7mm and 5mm || barlows
Filters (2 inch): DGM NPB || Orion Ultra Block, O-III and Sky Glow || Baader HaB
Primary Field Atlases: Uranometria All-Sky Edition and Interstellarum Deep Sky Atlas
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"Astronomers, we look into the past to see our future." (me)
"Seeing is in some respect an art, which must be learnt." (William Herschel)
"What we know is a drop, what we don't know is an ocean." (Sir Isaac Newton)
"No good deed goes unpunished." (various)
“Some people without brains do an awful lot of talking, don't you think?” (Scarecrow, The Wonderful Wizard of Oz)
Scopes: Astro Sky 17.5 f/4.5 Dob || Apertura AD12 f/5 Dob || Zhumell Z10 f/4.9 Dob ||
ES AR127 f/6.5 || ES ED80 f/6 || Apertura 6" f/5 Newtonian
Mounts: ES Twilight-II and Twilight-I
EPs: AT 82° 28mm UWA || TV Ethos 100° 21mm and 13mm || Vixen LVW 65° 22mm ||
ES 82° 18mm || Pentax XW 70° 10mm, 7mm and 5mm || barlows
Filters (2 inch): DGM NPB || Orion Ultra Block, O-III and Sky Glow || Baader HaB
Primary Field Atlases: Uranometria All-Sky Edition and Interstellarum Deep Sky Atlas
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"Astronomers, we look into the past to see our future." (me)
"Seeing is in some respect an art, which must be learnt." (William Herschel)
"What we know is a drop, what we don't know is an ocean." (Sir Isaac Newton)
"No good deed goes unpunished." (various)
“Some people without brains do an awful lot of talking, don't you think?” (Scarecrow, The Wonderful Wizard of Oz)
- pakarinen
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Re: Are visual observers a dying breed?
Emphasis on "brighter". M38 here is almost no bueno with my gear. Family and work keep me here in the B7-8 'burbs for the foreseeable future.
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I drink tea, I read books, I look at stars when I'm not cursing clouds. It's what I do.
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AT50, AT72EDII, ST80, ST102; Scopetech Zero, AZ-GTi, AZ Pronto; Innorel RT90C, Oberwerk 5000; Orion Giantview 15x70s, Vortex 8x42s, Navy surplus 7x50s, Nikon 10x50s
I drink tea, I read books, I look at stars when I'm not cursing clouds. It's what I do.
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AT50, AT72EDII, ST80, ST102; Scopetech Zero, AZ-GTi, AZ Pronto; Innorel RT90C, Oberwerk 5000; Orion Giantview 15x70s, Vortex 8x42s, Navy surplus 7x50s, Nikon 10x50s
- mikemarotta
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Re: Are visual observers a dying breed?
All of the opinions and insights here are interesting and informative. I do caution against generalizations based on convenience samples. "My club... this club... that club..." This is a global culture with local nuances and it is ultimately an individual enterprise. We spend a lot of time alone in the dark. (Except for the solarBigzmey wrote: ↑Mon Feb 15, 2021 2:40 am However, over the years I could not help but noticed that general interest in armature astronomy is shifting towards astrophotography and video astronomy.... The younger members seems to go straight to AP, many could not even point constellations in the sky. I am delighted to see observing reports from old and new members alike here on TSS, but it also feels fewer than before and not much interest in observing programs and monthly challenges. Your thoughts?
My other hobby is numismatics. Over the past 50 years, it has changed, of course.I see a lot of parallels between the two. I understand them based on my (relatively recent: 2010) university education in social science. Everything changes. Some people are psychologically conservative others are situational.
I recently read The Last Stargazers: The Enduring Story of Astronomy’s Vanishing Explorers by Emily Levesque (Source Books, 2020). It is about university researchers at huge observatories. I believe that the book is mislabeled. No one is vanishing from astronomy for lack of opportunity or lack of targets to study. However, the parallels between them and us are undeniable. Ever fewer actually go to an observatory. Ever more is remote control.And the bulk of the data is, well, data: 0s and 1s. No one gazes at stars. But some do. And not just for work.
Though, truth to tell, one disconnect between them and us is that we know the sky. (I understand the changes to that with Go To drives.) Levesque writes: “It’s true that some of us are better than others (people who teach introductory astronomy lab classes or who were dedicated stargazers as kids usually do okay), but usually, the best most of us can manage to do is pick out the better-known constellations, remember the differences between summer and winter constellations, and hazard a decent guess at which planets might be visible in the sky.” (page 70). I am on a committee of the American Astronomical Society for amateur outreach. (My own membership status is Amateur Affiliate because I am not a Ph.D. astronomer and cannot be a Full Member.) In an online chat for the committee, I posted Levesque and got replies about professional astronomers who were thrilled to be able to look through an amateur scope and actually see the object they were studying.
On the matter of Astrophotography (
The other side of the coin is that scientists, we share our work for peer review. The objective evidence of a photograph furthers that advancement of the science.
That being so, it remains that stacking a hundred rosy images for a rosier nebula may be nice to hang in your living room, but it is not science.
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Michael E. Marotta
Astro-Tech 115 mm APO Refractor Explore Scientific 102 mm f/6.47 Refractor Explore Scientific 102 mm f/9.8 Refractor Bresser 8-inch Newtonian Reflector Plössls from 40 to 6 mm Nagler Series-1 7mm. nonMeade 14 mm. Mounts: Celestron AVX, Explore Twilight I Alt-Az, Explore EXOS German Equatorial
Michael E. Marotta
Astro-Tech 115 mm APO Refractor Explore Scientific 102 mm f/6.47 Refractor Explore Scientific 102 mm f/9.8 Refractor Bresser 8-inch Newtonian Reflector Plössls from 40 to 6 mm Nagler Series-1 7mm. nonMeade 14 mm. Mounts: Celestron AVX, Explore Twilight I Alt-Az, Explore EXOS German Equatorial
- mikemarotta
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Re: Are visual observers a dying breed?
I gave the post a Thumbs Up because it was a good read. I want to point out, though, that my interest in astronomy is about a megaparsec away from building anything. I just gave a CelestronSkyHiker wrote: ↑Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:28 pm You don't have to spend $10K for AP. - With a good tripod and a DSLR you can shoot a panorama of the MW and stitch it with ICE
- If you build a simple Arduino controlled barndoor for $25 you can put a 300 mm zoom on the DSLR,....
Just to show that it does not have to be expensive if you keep your goals modest. I have done all of the above so I started out small and cheap. ...
I just finished an online class in astrophysics offered by the École polytechnique fédérale de Lausanne through edX. I am currently reading Discovery and Classification in Astronomy by Steven J. Dick (Cambridge 2013). I believe that understanding what you are looking at gives meaning to the experience.
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Michael E. Marotta
Astro-Tech 115 mm APO Refractor Explore Scientific 102 mm f/6.47 Refractor Explore Scientific 102 mm f/9.8 Refractor Bresser 8-inch Newtonian Reflector Plössls from 40 to 6 mm Nagler Series-1 7mm. nonMeade 14 mm. Mounts: Celestron AVX, Explore Twilight I Alt-Az, Explore EXOS German Equatorial
Michael E. Marotta
Astro-Tech 115 mm APO Refractor Explore Scientific 102 mm f/6.47 Refractor Explore Scientific 102 mm f/9.8 Refractor Bresser 8-inch Newtonian Reflector Plössls from 40 to 6 mm Nagler Series-1 7mm. nonMeade 14 mm. Mounts: Celestron AVX, Explore Twilight I Alt-Az, Explore EXOS German Equatorial
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Re: Are visual observers a dying breed?
That is a problem for visual observing too, not just for doing astrophotography. Most visual astronomers with a Newt can handle collimation problems.mikemarotta wrote: ↑Wed Mar 10, 2021 4:17 pmI gave the post a Thumbs Up because it was a good read. I want to point out, though, that my interest in astronomy is about a megaparsec away from building anything. I just gave a CelestronSkyHiker wrote: ↑Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:28 pm You don't have to spend $10K for AP. - With a good tripod and a DSLR you can shoot a panorama of the MW and stitch it with ICE
- If you build a simple Arduino controlled barndoor for $25 you can put a 300 mm zoom on the DSLR,....
Just to show that it does not have to be expensive if you keep your goals modest. I have done all of the above so I started out small and cheap. ...EQ -130 to the Goodwill because as I tried to collimate it, yet again, the secondary mirror swung free and I had more problems than I could solve. I swear: I did not touch the center screw. It must have been loose and when all three of the positiioners were out of touch, it pivoted. Anyway, I do not build things. It is why I did not pursue astrophotography: too much fussing with equipment.
I don't know if this was directed at me but it sounds like you say that at least you understand what you are looking at rather than shooting for pretty pictures. Just FYI, be assured that I took a good deal of classes in astronomy, special and general relativity, quantum physics and physics in general, differential geometry, functional analysis, topology etcetera. It's not like I don't understand what I'm looking at, or any othermikemarotta wrote: ↑Wed Mar 10, 2021 4:17 pm I just finished an online class in astrophysics offered by the École polytechnique fédérale de Lausanne through edX. I am currently reading Discovery and Classification in Astronomy by Steven J. Dick (Cambridge 2013). I believe that understanding what you are looking at gives meaning to the experience.
... Henk. Telescopes: GSO 12" Astrograph, "Comet Hunter" MN152, ES ED127CF, ES ED80, WO Redcat51, Z12, AT6RC, Celestron Skymaster 20x80, Mounts and tripod: Losmandy G11S with OnStep, AVX, Tiltall, Cameras: ASI2600MC, ASI2600MM, ASI120 mini, Fuji X-a1, Canon XSi, T6, ELPH 100HS, DIY: OnStep controller, Pi4b/power rig, Afocal adapter, Foldable Dob base, Az/Alt Dob setting circles, Accessories: ZWO 36 mm filter wheel, TV Paracorr 2, Baader MPCC Mk III, ES FF, SSAG, QHY OAG-M, EAF electronic focuser, Plossls, Barlows, Telrad, Laser collimators (Seben LK1, Z12, Howie Glatter), Cheshire, 2 Orion RACIs 8x50, Software: KStars-Ekos, DSS, PHD2, Nebulosity, Photo Gallery, Gimp, CHDK, Computers:Pi4b, 2x running KStars/Ekos, Toshiba Satellite 17", Website:Henk's astro images
- mikemarotta
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Re: Are visual observers a dying breed?
Sorry for the misunderstanding Skyliner. My comment was not directed at you or about you. As I said above, my other hobby is numismatics. I am not a collector: I write. But in 40 years, I have seen that hobby change in ways that leave old-timers dismayed. Yet, it now appeals to new people with new interests and viewpoints and expectations, though many of the traditional folkways continue. (Folkways, mores, and laws: it's sociology.)
Again cautioning against making generalizations from convenience samples I was saying that people (like you) who have been in the hobby as observers seem to take astrophotography differently than those who are new to astronomy and jump intoAP because they can buy the equipment and are rewarded by learning (and mastering) the software. But as noted, we feel that something is lost, missing, never experienced, if you do not start out learning the sky first. I believe that is why Butterfly Maiden always gets a nod.
A couple of years ago at an outreach event, this little girl asked her Dad, "Which one is Leo?" and he pointed his cellphone up to the sky to find it. One of my co-workers is shopping for a telescope for his son and they are pretty much sold on something like the Celestron Star Sense. I suppose it is not much different from using a book or a planisphere, but, at some level, it is different.
I would like to be able to look back in ten years and on boards like this meet people who got into astronomy throughAP and then went on to backfill their knowledge base with other reading and learning.
Again cautioning against making generalizations from convenience samples I was saying that people (like you) who have been in the hobby as observers seem to take astrophotography differently than those who are new to astronomy and jump into
A couple of years ago at an outreach event, this little girl asked her Dad, "Which one is Leo?" and he pointed his cellphone up to the sky to find it. One of my co-workers is shopping for a telescope for his son and they are pretty much sold on something like the Celestron Star Sense. I suppose it is not much different from using a book or a planisphere, but, at some level, it is different.
I would like to be able to look back in ten years and on boards like this meet people who got into astronomy through
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Michael E. Marotta
Astro-Tech 115 mm APO Refractor Explore Scientific 102 mm f/6.47 Refractor Explore Scientific 102 mm f/9.8 Refractor Bresser 8-inch Newtonian Reflector Plössls from 40 to 6 mm Nagler Series-1 7mm. nonMeade 14 mm. Mounts: Celestron AVX, Explore Twilight I Alt-Az, Explore EXOS German Equatorial
Michael E. Marotta
Astro-Tech 115 mm APO Refractor Explore Scientific 102 mm f/6.47 Refractor Explore Scientific 102 mm f/9.8 Refractor Bresser 8-inch Newtonian Reflector Plössls from 40 to 6 mm Nagler Series-1 7mm. nonMeade 14 mm. Mounts: Celestron AVX, Explore Twilight I Alt-Az, Explore EXOS German Equatorial
- Bigzmey
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Re: Are visual observers a dying breed?
Yes, each of convenience samples (local friends, my club, that club, online forums) are a thin slice, but they select subset of people by different criteria, and the selections don't overlap. If all point to the same direction, you can't ignore the trend.mikemarotta wrote: ↑Wed Mar 10, 2021 3:38 pm I do caution against generalizations based on convenience samples. "My club... this club... that club..." This is a global culture with local nuances and it is ultimately an individual enterprise.
Scopes: Stellarvue: SV102ED; Celestron: 9.25" EdgeHD, 8" SCT, 150ST, Onyx 80ED; iOptron: Hankmeister 6" Mak; SW: 7" Mak; Meade: 80ST.
Mounts: SW: SkyTee2, AzGTi; iOptron: AZMP; ES: Twilight I; Bresser: EXOS2; UA: MicroStar.
Binos: APM: 100-90 APO; Canon: IS 15x50; Orion: Binoviewer, LG II 15x70, WV 10x50, Nikon: AE 16x50, 10x50, 8x40.
EPs: Pentax: XWs & XFs; TeleVue: Delites, Panoptic & Plossls; ES: 68, 62; Vixen: SLVs; Baader: BCOs, Aspherics, Mark IV.
Diagonals: Baader: BBHS mirror, Zeiss Spec T2 prism, Clicklock dielectric; TeleVue: Evebrite dielectric; AltairAstro: 2" prism.
Filters: Lumicon: DeepSky, UHC, OIII, H-beta; Baader: Moon & SkyGlow, Contrast Booster, UHC-S, 6-color set; Astronomik: UHC.
Observing: DSOs: 3106 (Completed: Messier, Herschel 1, 2, 3. In progress: H2,500: 2180, S110: 77). Doubles: 2382, Comets: 34, Asteroids: 255
Mounts: SW: SkyTee2, AzGTi; iOptron: AZMP; ES: Twilight I; Bresser: EXOS2; UA: MicroStar.
Binos: APM: 100-90 APO; Canon: IS 15x50; Orion: Binoviewer, LG II 15x70, WV 10x50, Nikon: AE 16x50, 10x50, 8x40.
EPs: Pentax: XWs & XFs; TeleVue: Delites, Panoptic & Plossls; ES: 68, 62; Vixen: SLVs; Baader: BCOs, Aspherics, Mark IV.
Diagonals: Baader: BBHS mirror, Zeiss Spec T2 prism, Clicklock dielectric; TeleVue: Evebrite dielectric; AltairAstro: 2" prism.
Filters: Lumicon: DeepSky, UHC, OIII, H-beta; Baader: Moon & SkyGlow, Contrast Booster, UHC-S, 6-color set; Astronomik: UHC.
Observing: DSOs: 3106 (Completed: Messier, Herschel 1, 2, 3. In progress: H2,500: 2180, S110: 77). Doubles: 2382, Comets: 34, Asteroids: 255
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