Binoviewers With 6" f5 Achro Vs 20x80 Achro Binoculars

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Refractordude
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Binoviewers With 6" f5 Achro Vs 20x80 Achro Binoculars

#1

Post by Refractordude »


If you can have only one option for viewing with both eyes, which would it be and why?
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Re: Binoviewers With 6" f5 Achro Vs 20x80 Achro Binoculars

#2

Post by Lady Fraktor »


I would take the 150mm f/5 as it would be much more versatile than the binoculars for viewing different objects.
See Far Sticks: Antares Elita 103/1575, AOM FLT 105/1000, Bresser BV 127/1200, Nočný stopár 152/1200, Vyrobené doma 70/700, Stellarvue NHNG DX 80/552, TAL RS100/1000, Vixen SD115s/885
EQ: TAL MT-1, Vixen SXP, AXJ, AXD
Az/Alt: AYO Digi II/ Argo Navis, Stellarvue M2C/ Argo Navis
Tripods: Berlebach Planet (2), Uni 28 Astro, Report 372, TAL factory maple, Vixen ASG-CB90, Vixen AXD-TR102
Diagonals: Astro-Physics, Baader Amici, Baader Herschel, iStar Blue, Stellarvue DX, Takahashi prism, TAL, Vixen flip mirror
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Re: Binoviewers With 6" f5 Achro Vs 20x80 Achro Binoculars

#3

Post by Bigzmey »


Definitely 150ST. It will reach deeper and is more versatile. But obviously more expensive, since you need to get all EPs in pairs. :)
Scopes: Stellarvue: SV102ED; Celestron: 9.25" EdgeHD, 8" SCT, 150ST, Onyx 80ED; iOptron: Hankmeister 6" Mak; SW: 7" Mak; Meade: 80ST.
Mounts: SW: SkyTee2, AzGTi; iOptron: AZMP; ES: Twilight I; Bresser: EXOS2; UA: MicroStar.
Binos: APM: 100-90 APO; Canon: IS 15x50; Orion: Binoviewer, LG II 15x70, WV 10x50, Nikon: AE 16x50, 10x50, 8x40.
EPs: Pentax: XWs & XFs; TeleVue: Delites, Panoptic & Plossls; ES: 68, 62; Vixen: SLVs; Baader: BCOs, Aspherics, Mark IV.
Diagonals: Baader: BBHS mirror, Zeiss Spec T2 prism, Clicklock dielectric; TeleVue: Evebrite dielectric; AltairAstro: 2" prism.
Filters: Lumicon: DeepSky, UHC, OIII, H-beta; Baader: Moon & SkyGlow, Contrast Booster, UHC-S, 6-color set; Astronomik: UHC.

Observing: DSOs: 3106 (Completed: Messier, Herschel 1, 2, 3. In progress: H2,500: 2180, S110: 77). Doubles: 2382, Comets: 34, Asteroids: 255
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Re: Binoviewers With 6" f5 Achro Vs 20x80 Achro Binoculars

#4

Post by Bigzmey »


Just buy 150ST already, you know you want it! :lol:
Scopes: Stellarvue: SV102ED; Celestron: 9.25" EdgeHD, 8" SCT, 150ST, Onyx 80ED; iOptron: Hankmeister 6" Mak; SW: 7" Mak; Meade: 80ST.
Mounts: SW: SkyTee2, AzGTi; iOptron: AZMP; ES: Twilight I; Bresser: EXOS2; UA: MicroStar.
Binos: APM: 100-90 APO; Canon: IS 15x50; Orion: Binoviewer, LG II 15x70, WV 10x50, Nikon: AE 16x50, 10x50, 8x40.
EPs: Pentax: XWs & XFs; TeleVue: Delites, Panoptic & Plossls; ES: 68, 62; Vixen: SLVs; Baader: BCOs, Aspherics, Mark IV.
Diagonals: Baader: BBHS mirror, Zeiss Spec T2 prism, Clicklock dielectric; TeleVue: Evebrite dielectric; AltairAstro: 2" prism.
Filters: Lumicon: DeepSky, UHC, OIII, H-beta; Baader: Moon & SkyGlow, Contrast Booster, UHC-S, 6-color set; Astronomik: UHC.

Observing: DSOs: 3106 (Completed: Messier, Herschel 1, 2, 3. In progress: H2,500: 2180, S110: 77). Doubles: 2382, Comets: 34, Asteroids: 255
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Re: Binoviewers With 6" f5 Achro Vs 20x80 Achro Binoculars

#5

Post by Refractordude »


Would the 20x80 binoculars have a brighter view? The 20x80 binoculars would also have a wider view. The widest I could get with the
binoviewers and the 6" f/5 achromatic is a little over 2 degrees field of view. Am I correct?
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Re: Binoviewers With 6" f5 Achro Vs 20x80 Achro Binoculars

#6

Post by Bigzmey »


Refractordude wrote: Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:59 pm Would the 20x80 binoculars have a brighter view? The 20x80 binoculars would also have a wider view. The widest I could get with the
binoviewers and the 6" f/5 achromatic is a little over 2 degrees field of view. Am I correct?
Both are good instruments. As far as light-gathering go 20x80 binos are an equivalent of 110mm refractor. With 150mm scope you will be able to see fainter things, smaller things and see more details within the targets compared to 20x80 binos.

Yes, max field of view of 150ST with 1.25" EPs is about 2deg, and 20x80 binos have 3 - 3.5 deg AFV. But then 8x40 binos have 8 deg AFV. :)
Scopes: Stellarvue: SV102ED; Celestron: 9.25" EdgeHD, 8" SCT, 150ST, Onyx 80ED; iOptron: Hankmeister 6" Mak; SW: 7" Mak; Meade: 80ST.
Mounts: SW: SkyTee2, AzGTi; iOptron: AZMP; ES: Twilight I; Bresser: EXOS2; UA: MicroStar.
Binos: APM: 100-90 APO; Canon: IS 15x50; Orion: Binoviewer, LG II 15x70, WV 10x50, Nikon: AE 16x50, 10x50, 8x40.
EPs: Pentax: XWs & XFs; TeleVue: Delites, Panoptic & Plossls; ES: 68, 62; Vixen: SLVs; Baader: BCOs, Aspherics, Mark IV.
Diagonals: Baader: BBHS mirror, Zeiss Spec T2 prism, Clicklock dielectric; TeleVue: Evebrite dielectric; AltairAstro: 2" prism.
Filters: Lumicon: DeepSky, UHC, OIII, H-beta; Baader: Moon & SkyGlow, Contrast Booster, UHC-S, 6-color set; Astronomik: UHC.

Observing: DSOs: 3106 (Completed: Messier, Herschel 1, 2, 3. In progress: H2,500: 2180, S110: 77). Doubles: 2382, Comets: 34, Asteroids: 255
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Re: Binoviewers With 6" f5 Achro Vs 20x80 Achro Binoculars

#7

Post by Refractordude »


Bigzmey:

Can the binoviewers with the 6" achro put up a brighter image than the 20x80 binoculars. I don"t think so. What say you?
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Re: Binoviewers With 6" f5 Achro Vs 20x80 Achro Binoculars

#8

Post by Lady Fraktor »


Most binoviewers like the Celestron or Williams Optical have only around a 23mm clear aperture so only a 1.75° FOV
The telescope without a binoviewer can achieve a 3.67° FOV

My 150mm f/8 with binoviewers with 25mm aperture can get a 1.2° FOV or 2.3° FOV without.
See Far Sticks: Antares Elita 103/1575, AOM FLT 105/1000, Bresser BV 127/1200, Nočný stopár 152/1200, Vyrobené doma 70/700, Stellarvue NHNG DX 80/552, TAL RS100/1000, Vixen SD115s/885
EQ: TAL MT-1, Vixen SXP, AXJ, AXD
Az/Alt: AYO Digi II/ Argo Navis, Stellarvue M2C/ Argo Navis
Tripods: Berlebach Planet (2), Uni 28 Astro, Report 372, TAL factory maple, Vixen ASG-CB90, Vixen AXD-TR102
Diagonals: Astro-Physics, Baader Amici, Baader Herschel, iStar Blue, Stellarvue DX, Takahashi prism, TAL, Vixen flip mirror
Eyepieces: Antares to Zeiss
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Re: Binoviewers With 6" f5 Achro Vs 20x80 Achro Binoculars

#9

Post by SkyHiker »


Get the 6" scope because it is more versatile, you won't have to wreck your neck looking up, and also you need a mount for the 20x80 (and you will still be wrecking yor neck even while the target sits still). I would use binoviewers on a larger scope, 10" or more, otherwise they are more expensive than the scope with all the eyepieces. Consider a 2" single eyepiece vs. binoviewers, there is something to be said for a wide field of view.
... Henk. :D Telescopes: GSO 12" Astrograph, "Comet Hunter" MN152, ES ED127CF, ES ED80, WO Redcat51, Z12, AT6RC, Celestron Skymaster 20x80, Mounts and tripod: Losmandy G11S with OnStep, AVX, Tiltall, Cameras: ASI2600MC, ASI2600MM, ASI120 mini, Fuji X-a1, Canon XSi, T6, ELPH 100HS, DIY: OnStep controller, Pi4b/power rig, Afocal adapter, Foldable Dob base, Az/Alt Dob setting circles, Accessories: ZWO 36 mm filter wheel, TV Paracorr 2, Baader MPCC Mk III, ES FF, SSAG, QHY OAG-M, EAF electronic focuser, Plossls, Barlows, Telrad, Laser collimators (Seben LK1, Z12, Howie Glatter), Cheshire, 2 Orion RACIs 8x50, Software: KStars-Ekos, DSS, PHD2, Nebulosity, Photo Gallery, Gimp, CHDK, Computers:Pi4b, 2x running KStars/Ekos, Toshiba Satellite 17", Website:Henk's astro images
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Re: Binoviewers With 6" f5 Achro Vs 20x80 Achro Binoculars

#10

Post by Bigzmey »


Refractordude wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 3:29 am Bigzmey:

Can the binoviewers with the 6" achro put up a brighter image than the 20x80 binoculars. I don"t think so. What say you?
Not sure what you mean by brighter image? During the daytime? At night you don't want bright FOV, instead you want the best contrast between darker sky and DSOs. Since, 6" achro has more aperture and you can play with magnification and exit pupil, you will be able to resolve many more targets with it.
Scopes: Stellarvue: SV102ED; Celestron: 9.25" EdgeHD, 8" SCT, 150ST, Onyx 80ED; iOptron: Hankmeister 6" Mak; SW: 7" Mak; Meade: 80ST.
Mounts: SW: SkyTee2, AzGTi; iOptron: AZMP; ES: Twilight I; Bresser: EXOS2; UA: MicroStar.
Binos: APM: 100-90 APO; Canon: IS 15x50; Orion: Binoviewer, LG II 15x70, WV 10x50, Nikon: AE 16x50, 10x50, 8x40.
EPs: Pentax: XWs & XFs; TeleVue: Delites, Panoptic & Plossls; ES: 68, 62; Vixen: SLVs; Baader: BCOs, Aspherics, Mark IV.
Diagonals: Baader: BBHS mirror, Zeiss Spec T2 prism, Clicklock dielectric; TeleVue: Evebrite dielectric; AltairAstro: 2" prism.
Filters: Lumicon: DeepSky, UHC, OIII, H-beta; Baader: Moon & SkyGlow, Contrast Booster, UHC-S, 6-color set; Astronomik: UHC.

Observing: DSOs: 3106 (Completed: Messier, Herschel 1, 2, 3. In progress: H2,500: 2180, S110: 77). Doubles: 2382, Comets: 34, Asteroids: 255
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Re: Binoviewers With 6" f5 Achro Vs 20x80 Achro Binoculars

#11

Post by Bigzmey »


Actually, if we are talking about dedicated binoviewing setup I would skip 6" achro and 20x80 and go for the binocular scope. 100mm is the one I am getting one day, but 80mm is not too shabby either.

https://oberwerk.com/product-category/b ... elescopes/

The price tag may look high. But consider that for 150ST you will need to get binoviewer and new focuser and prism diagonal, the price difference will be not as high, and you are getting ED optics with binocular scopes.
Scopes: Stellarvue: SV102ED; Celestron: 9.25" EdgeHD, 8" SCT, 150ST, Onyx 80ED; iOptron: Hankmeister 6" Mak; SW: 7" Mak; Meade: 80ST.
Mounts: SW: SkyTee2, AzGTi; iOptron: AZMP; ES: Twilight I; Bresser: EXOS2; UA: MicroStar.
Binos: APM: 100-90 APO; Canon: IS 15x50; Orion: Binoviewer, LG II 15x70, WV 10x50, Nikon: AE 16x50, 10x50, 8x40.
EPs: Pentax: XWs & XFs; TeleVue: Delites, Panoptic & Plossls; ES: 68, 62; Vixen: SLVs; Baader: BCOs, Aspherics, Mark IV.
Diagonals: Baader: BBHS mirror, Zeiss Spec T2 prism, Clicklock dielectric; TeleVue: Evebrite dielectric; AltairAstro: 2" prism.
Filters: Lumicon: DeepSky, UHC, OIII, H-beta; Baader: Moon & SkyGlow, Contrast Booster, UHC-S, 6-color set; Astronomik: UHC.

Observing: DSOs: 3106 (Completed: Messier, Herschel 1, 2, 3. In progress: H2,500: 2180, S110: 77). Doubles: 2382, Comets: 34, Asteroids: 255
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Re: Binoviewers With 6" f5 Achro Vs 20x80 Achro Binoculars

#12

Post by Refractordude »


Lady Fraktor wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 4:38 am Most binoviewers like the Celestron or Williams Optical have only around a 23mm clear aperture so only a 1.75° FOV
The telescope without a binoviewer can achieve a 3.67° FOV

My 150mm f/8 with binoviewers with 25mm aperture can get a 1.2° FOV or 2.3° FOV without.
The 20x80 binoculars would give me better views than the binoviewers attached to the achro, based on this information alone. This is the type of information I was hoping would come out. Did not know/understood that binoviewers have their own aperture. Of course the 6" achro would best the 20x80 binoculars and the binoviewers with achro. However, it was binoviewers vs 20x80 binoculars info that I was after.

Thanks Lady Fraktor and you all
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Re: Binoviewers With 6" f5 Achro Vs 20x80 Achro Binoculars

#13

Post by DeanD »


Refractordude wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:41 pm
Lady Fraktor wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 4:38 am Most binoviewers like the Celestron or Williams Optical have only around a 23mm clear aperture so only a 1.75° FOV
The telescope without a binoviewer can achieve a 3.67° FOV

My 150mm f/8 with binoviewers with 25mm aperture can get a 1.2° FOV or 2.3° FOV without.
The 20x80 binoculars would give me better views than the binoviewers attached to the achro, based on this information alone. This is the type of information I was hoping would come out. Did not know/understood that binoviewers have their own aperture. Of course the 6" achro would best the 20x80 binoculars and the binoviewers with achro. However, it was binoviewers vs 20x80 binoculars info that I was after.

Thanks Lady Fraktor and you all
If "wider FOV"= "better views", then sure: and naked eyes give the best view of all! ;) I don't think there is any other criteria where 20x80's would be "better" than a 150mm scope with a decent binoviewer. In the scope, 20mm plossl eyepieces will give a 4mm exit pupil (the same exit pupil as the 20x80's, and same amount of light entering your eyes) at 38x and around 1.3 degree FOV. This should give better contrast, better resolution, and you will be able to go deeper with dso's and see more detail at higher power. Not to mention better views of the planets and the moon...

Is your question really about comparing 20x80's with a 150f5 with binoviewer at 20x? (ie: using ~40mm eyepieces, and with 8mm exit pupil) In this case the binoculars would more likely win out by giving a wider FOV at the same power... They would still lose in terms of the viewing position if you want to look high in the sky, and they would still need a mount though. Mind you, not many 20x80 binoculars will give a sharp FOV right across: more likely the "sweet spot" will be around 1/2 the FOV, and the outer edge will be fuzzy.

I would say these instruments are complementary, not "either/or". If you are after nice wide fields at low-ish power and ease of carrying around though, why not go for hand-holdable binos like 10x50's to complement a 150f5 with binoviewer?

All the best,

Dean
Telescopes: 12" f5 dob, Celestron CPC800, 150mmf5 Celestron achro, Tak TSA102, TV76, ETX125...
Binos: Steiner Wildlife XP 10x26, Swarovski 8x30 Habicht, Zeiss SFL 8x40, Vanguard Endeavour 10.5x45, Fuji FMTR-SX 10x50, Tak 22x60, Orion Resolux 15x70
Eyepieces: way too many (is that possible?), but I do like my TV 32mm plossl, 13mm Nagler T6, 27mm Panoptic and 3-6mm Nagler zoom, plus Fujiyama 18mm and 25mm orthos and Tak 7.5mm LE
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Re: Binoviewers With 6" f5 Achro Vs 20x80 Achro Binoculars

#14

Post by Refractordude »


DeanD:

That really is a great post/reply to my question. I had/tried the 25x100, but returned them because the eye relief was to short. I then ordered the 20x80, and was really impressed with the wider field of view. My 20x80 Zhumells are sharp at around 90 percent, maybe more. I will look for that next time out. I use a parallelogram mount for them. Thus, the viewing positions are very comfortable. I think 15, 16, or 20x80 ed apo binoculars complimented with a 6" achro short tube is the way to go. My 20x80 binoculars show DSO just as bright as my 120mm f/8 telescope, which I use to increase mag. A 6" short tube will do even better. I really don't desire the 25x100 binoculars anymore.

My questions was to find out are 20x80 binoculars worth keeping, if I add a binoviewer to a 6" achor f/5.
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Re: Binoviewers With 6" f5 Achro Vs 20x80 Achro Binoculars

#15

Post by DeanD »


Refractordude wrote: Sat Sep 28, 2019 3:28 am DeanD:

That really is a great post/reply to my question. I had/tried the 25x100, but returned them because the eye relief was to short. I then ordered the 20x80, and was really impressed with the wider field of view. My 20x80 Zhumells are sharp at around 90 percent, maybe more. I will look for that next time out. I use a parallelogram mount for them. Thus, the viewing positions are very comfortable. I think 15, 16, or 20x80 ed apo binoculars complimented with a 6" achro short tube is the way to go. My 20x80 binoculars show DSO just as bright as my 120mm f/8 telescope, which I use to increase mag. A 6" short tube will do even better. I really don't desire the 25x100 binoculars anymore.

My questions was to find out are 20x80 binoculars worth keeping, if I add a binoviewer to a 6" achor f/5.
The only other thing you will need to think about is CA. The f5 achro will show CA, especially on brighter objects. It will be not so noticeable on DSO's though. My 150mm f5 (which I love!) is terrific on DSO's, but not so hot at high power on planets; although a "minus violet" filter helps a lot. If you are planning to get a binoviewer anyway, why not try it on your 120mm f8 before you take the plunge and get a 150? If CA bothers you, then I would suggest a 150mm f8.

Good luck,

Dean
Telescopes: 12" f5 dob, Celestron CPC800, 150mmf5 Celestron achro, Tak TSA102, TV76, ETX125...
Binos: Steiner Wildlife XP 10x26, Swarovski 8x30 Habicht, Zeiss SFL 8x40, Vanguard Endeavour 10.5x45, Fuji FMTR-SX 10x50, Tak 22x60, Orion Resolux 15x70
Eyepieces: way too many (is that possible?), but I do like my TV 32mm plossl, 13mm Nagler T6, 27mm Panoptic and 3-6mm Nagler zoom, plus Fujiyama 18mm and 25mm orthos and Tak 7.5mm LE
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Re: Binoviewers With 6" f5 Achro Vs 20x80 Achro Binoculars

#16

Post by Refractordude »


DeanD

That is great advice, thanks a lot. However, A 6" f5 achro will be just for darksite DSO.

My favorite https://vanderbei.princeton.edu/images/NJP/m104.html
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Re: Binoviewers With 6" f5 Achro Vs 20x80 Achro Binoculars

#17

Post by j.gardavsky »


Hello Refractordude,

first of all, keep your 20x80 if you are satisfied with them.

For a binoviewer on a refractor, it is better to take a slower refractor, anyway.
As the binoviewer adds a splitter, you will loose more light if compared with just the zenit mirrors or prisms. So finally, each of your eyes will receive not the nearly 50% of light, but less light due to the loss on the splitter optics.

I have seen telescopes with binoviewers in outreach, and they are better suited for observing Moon and planets than for the nebulae and galaxies, people say.

Hoping this helps,
JG
6" F/5 Sky-Watcher achro, 2" BBHS Star Diagonal, 2" zenith prism, 1.25" Takahashi prism
Leica 82mm APO Televid
Eyepieces: Docter UWA; Leica B WW and WW Asph. Zoom; Leica HC Plan S and L, monocentric; Pentax SMC XW, O-, XO; Tak MC O, Carl Zeiss B WW, and Pl, E-Pl, S-Pl, W-Pl;
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Filters: Astrodon, Astronomik, Baader, Balzers, Zeiss West and East, Lumicon
Binoculars (7x42 up to 15x85): Docter Nobilem, Leica Ultravid, Nikon Astroluxe, Swarovski EL Swarovision; BA8 (Kunming Optical)
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Re: Binoviewers With 6" f5 Achro Vs 20x80 Achro Binoculars

#18

Post by Bigzmey »


j.gardavsky wrote: Sun Sep 29, 2019 8:49 pm Hello Refractordude,

first of all, keep your 20x80 if you are satisfied with them.

For a binoviewer on a refractor, it is better to take a slower refractor, anyway.
As the binoviewer adds a splitter, you will loose more light if compared with just the zenit mirrors or prisms. So finally, each of your eyes will receive not the nearly 50% of light, but less light due to the loss on the splitter optics.

I have seen telescopes with binoviewers in outreach, and they are better suited for observing Moon and planets than for the nebulae and galaxies, people say.

Hoping this helps,
JG
Never tried binoviewers myself, but on forums users indicate ~one magnitude loss on stars with binoviewers. One can still enjoy brighter DSOs, but not the faint stuff. For the faint fuzzies enthusiasts binocular telescope could be better option.
Scopes: Stellarvue: SV102ED; Celestron: 9.25" EdgeHD, 8" SCT, 150ST, Onyx 80ED; iOptron: Hankmeister 6" Mak; SW: 7" Mak; Meade: 80ST.
Mounts: SW: SkyTee2, AzGTi; iOptron: AZMP; ES: Twilight I; Bresser: EXOS2; UA: MicroStar.
Binos: APM: 100-90 APO; Canon: IS 15x50; Orion: Binoviewer, LG II 15x70, WV 10x50, Nikon: AE 16x50, 10x50, 8x40.
EPs: Pentax: XWs & XFs; TeleVue: Delites, Panoptic & Plossls; ES: 68, 62; Vixen: SLVs; Baader: BCOs, Aspherics, Mark IV.
Diagonals: Baader: BBHS mirror, Zeiss Spec T2 prism, Clicklock dielectric; TeleVue: Evebrite dielectric; AltairAstro: 2" prism.
Filters: Lumicon: DeepSky, UHC, OIII, H-beta; Baader: Moon & SkyGlow, Contrast Booster, UHC-S, 6-color set; Astronomik: UHC.

Observing: DSOs: 3106 (Completed: Messier, Herschel 1, 2, 3. In progress: H2,500: 2180, S110: 77). Doubles: 2382, Comets: 34, Asteroids: 255
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