Autoguiding accuracy and equipment

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Autoguiding accuracy and equipment

#1

Post by SkyHiker »


I spent one night practicing autoguiding to see if I could improve the resolution. I used Ekos' internal guider on my Losmandy G11S with OnStep and the 6" Mak Newt. I tried multiple gains and also the multi-guidestar feature. I was not able to get below 1" and stayed generally below 2" total.

I wanted to try PHD2 from Ekos but could not figure out how the two work together. Maybe I need to start PHD2 before Ekos, I just read. But frankly the Ekos internal autoguider looks fine to me, I doubt if switching will help.

My guiding system is an ole trusty Orion MMAG with the original QHY5 and a 50/162 mm guide scope. I noticed that the guider produces noisy and banded images occasionally so maybe that is part of the problem. I just ordered an ASI120MM mini, they are only $150 including scope and have good reviews.

Any thoughts on how to debug the performance and how to improve? Any idea if the guiding hardware could be the bottleneck?
... Henk. :D Telescopes: GSO 12" Astrograph, "Comet Hunter" MN152, ES ED127CF, ES ED80, WO Redcat51, Z12, AT6RC, Celestron Skymaster 20x80, Mounts and tripod: Losmandy G11S with OnStep, AVX, Tiltall, Cameras: ASI2600MC, ASI2600MM, ASI120 mini, Fuji X-a1, Canon XSi, T6, ELPH 100HS, DIY: OnStep controller, Pi4b/power rig, Afocal adapter, Foldable Dob base, Az/Alt Dob setting circles, Accessories: ZWO 36 mm filter wheel, TV Paracorr 2, Baader MPCC Mk III, ES FF, SSAG, QHY OAG-M, EAF electronic focuser, Plossls, Barlows, Telrad, Laser collimators (Seben LK1, Z12, Howie Glatter), Cheshire, 2 Orion RACIs 8x50, Software: KStars-Ekos, DSS, PHD2, Nebulosity, Photo Gallery, Gimp, CHDK, Computers:Pi4b, 2x running KStars/Ekos, Toshiba Satellite 17", Website:Henk's astro images
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Re: Autoguiding accuracy and equipment

#2

Post by OhNo »


Did you try the SEP option?
Scopes: SkyWatcher 8" Quattro, Celestron C8, SkyWatcher ST120, Orion ST80, SharpStar 61EDPH II. SLT 130 Celestron
Mounts: CGEM, CG-4, EQ2, Alt Az, SLT
Cameras: ZWO ASI533MC Pro, ZWO ASI120MM, Canon 1100D
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Re: Autoguiding accuracy and equipment

#3

Post by yobbo89 »


it's a hard one,don't know the mount or software :( ..

i usualy go around to the source if i have problems, ie checking the mount out, how much play is in the worm float ectt,balance and what not.

what does your guiding look like, is it over correcting ? or struggling ? , does ah ekos ignore star mass change ectt ? , is your spring loaded mount evenly balanced ?

is your star drift plot random or in a certain location ? this a good tool to show if seeing is bad, polar alighnment problems , oscilation problems from a poor balance mount ectt.

example,of what i've notice,but may not be correct

*random hits but even on both dec and ra usualy shows bad seeing
*correction on one axis only ie ra on one side of the chart can mean under correction,or poor pa,cable snag or some sort of load
*correction on both sides of the ra chart but very little in the middle can mean some sort of oscilation, from balance,perodic error or "chassing the seeing" over correction ectt

some times it pays to watch that guide star without guiding and see what it does as your worm/mount gear cycles over a peroid of 5 mins,see if ther'es any sort of large oscillation that's not introduces from bad seeing or wrong guide parameters .

that's all the ideas i have atm
scopes :gso/bintel f4 12"truss tube, bresser messier ar127s /skywatcher 10'' dob,meade 12'' f10 lx200 sct
cameras : asi 1600mm-c/asi1600mm-c,asi120mc,prostar lp guidecam, nikkon d60, sony a7,asi 290 mm
mounts : eq6 pro/eq8/mesu 200 v2
filters : 2'' astronomik lp/badder lrgb h-a,sII,oIII,h-b,Baader Solar Continuum, chroma 3nm ha,sii,oiii,nii,rgb,lowglow,uv/ir,Thousand Oaks Solar Filter,1.25'' #47 violet,pro planet 742 ir,pro planet 807 ir,pro planet 642 bp ir.
extras : skywatcher f4 aplanatic cc, Baader MPCC MKIII Coma Corrector,Orion Field Flattener,zwo 1.25''adc.starlight maxi 2" 9x filter wheel,tele vue 2x barlow .

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Re: Autoguiding accuracy and equipment

#4

Post by KenGS »


Hi Henk
You should download the PHD2 Log Viewer to analyze the guide logs. I understand that Ekos produces a log file that is compatible with PHD2.
https://openphdguiding.org/phd2-log-viewer/
PHD2 also provides an excellent tutorial which should be applicable to the Ekos software. https://openphdguiding.org/tutorial-ana ... g-results/
The main advantage of PHD2 is the Guiding Assistant tool which optimizes the guiding parameters. If you want to use it with Ekos make sure you have Enable Server ticked on the Tools menu and in your Ekos profile select PHD2 guider. You need to start PHD2 manually - EKOS cannot start it.
In the vast majority of cases the limiting factor is either the mount itself or flexure in the guiding setup.
--Ken
GSO RC8 CF; Vixen 150mm F5 Newtonian c.1983; Super Polaris mount; DMD-1 controller; DIY Arduino controller; EQ6Pro mount; Synscan 3 controller; Avalon M-UNO; Vixen 60mm F12 refractor guidescope; Meade Lightbridge 12"; ASI1600MM-C; ATIK 420, Tamron 46A 70-210mm, ST80, Imaging Source DBK-21AU04-AS cam, Prostar/Toupcam GPCMOS0120KMB, ZWO ASI120MM-S, Bortle 5 sky.
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Re: Autoguiding accuracy and equipment

#5

Post by SkyHiker »


Thanks guys.

Rob, I took another look at how I set up OnStep and noticed that I used 16 microsteps while the default is 32. I now set it to 32, which is 3.6 microsteps per arc second. Maybe having 1.8 microstep per arc second was not right, we'll see. I also double-checked the stepper drivers because in the noisiest driver mode it sounded irregular. I swapped the drivers and connection cables, verified the TMC2130 driver board voltages, and verified that none of that made any difference. So this is as good as it gets.

Ken, thanks for that. After trying a bit more I was able to connect PHD2 as an INDI server. I started PHD2 first, this may make a difference if I can recall my steps. I read this elsewhere too.

This was all in the daytime, hopefully I can try it tonight.
... Henk. :D Telescopes: GSO 12" Astrograph, "Comet Hunter" MN152, ES ED127CF, ES ED80, WO Redcat51, Z12, AT6RC, Celestron Skymaster 20x80, Mounts and tripod: Losmandy G11S with OnStep, AVX, Tiltall, Cameras: ASI2600MC, ASI2600MM, ASI120 mini, Fuji X-a1, Canon XSi, T6, ELPH 100HS, DIY: OnStep controller, Pi4b/power rig, Afocal adapter, Foldable Dob base, Az/Alt Dob setting circles, Accessories: ZWO 36 mm filter wheel, TV Paracorr 2, Baader MPCC Mk III, ES FF, SSAG, QHY OAG-M, EAF electronic focuser, Plossls, Barlows, Telrad, Laser collimators (Seben LK1, Z12, Howie Glatter), Cheshire, 2 Orion RACIs 8x50, Software: KStars-Ekos, DSS, PHD2, Nebulosity, Photo Gallery, Gimp, CHDK, Computers:Pi4b, 2x running KStars/Ekos, Toshiba Satellite 17", Website:Henk's astro images
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Re: Autoguiding accuracy and equipment

#6

Post by SkyHiker »


I installed the PHD2 log viewer, got PHD2 running under Ekos and got a PHD2 log, this time with the 48 lbs Newt. It was windy again.

The calibration graph gives me the impression that the system works well. As far as I can tell there is nothing abnormal in the guiding errors. Nevertheless it gives me 1.5" total RMS. I tried running images at 2 seconds instead of 1, changed the aggression parameters but none of that seemed to improve things.

I will receive an ASI120MM miniguider soon, let's see if that makes a difference.
calibration.jpg
guiding.jpg
... Henk. :D Telescopes: GSO 12" Astrograph, "Comet Hunter" MN152, ES ED127CF, ES ED80, WO Redcat51, Z12, AT6RC, Celestron Skymaster 20x80, Mounts and tripod: Losmandy G11S with OnStep, AVX, Tiltall, Cameras: ASI2600MC, ASI2600MM, ASI120 mini, Fuji X-a1, Canon XSi, T6, ELPH 100HS, DIY: OnStep controller, Pi4b/power rig, Afocal adapter, Foldable Dob base, Az/Alt Dob setting circles, Accessories: ZWO 36 mm filter wheel, TV Paracorr 2, Baader MPCC Mk III, ES FF, SSAG, QHY OAG-M, EAF electronic focuser, Plossls, Barlows, Telrad, Laser collimators (Seben LK1, Z12, Howie Glatter), Cheshire, 2 Orion RACIs 8x50, Software: KStars-Ekos, DSS, PHD2, Nebulosity, Photo Gallery, Gimp, CHDK, Computers:Pi4b, 2x running KStars/Ekos, Toshiba Satellite 17", Website:Henk's astro images
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Re: Autoguiding accuracy and equipment

#7

Post by yobbo89 »


Pretty good calibration graph, but guiding :( , tried lowering the aggression and upping the hysteria to smooth things out?, maybe get the guide scope off the counterweight bar and put it on the tube or try guiding with your main scope as a test.
scopes :gso/bintel f4 12"truss tube, bresser messier ar127s /skywatcher 10'' dob,meade 12'' f10 lx200 sct
cameras : asi 1600mm-c/asi1600mm-c,asi120mc,prostar lp guidecam, nikkon d60, sony a7,asi 290 mm
mounts : eq6 pro/eq8/mesu 200 v2
filters : 2'' astronomik lp/badder lrgb h-a,sII,oIII,h-b,Baader Solar Continuum, chroma 3nm ha,sii,oiii,nii,rgb,lowglow,uv/ir,Thousand Oaks Solar Filter,1.25'' #47 violet,pro planet 742 ir,pro planet 807 ir,pro planet 642 bp ir.
extras : skywatcher f4 aplanatic cc, Baader MPCC MKIII Coma Corrector,Orion Field Flattener,zwo 1.25''adc.starlight maxi 2" 9x filter wheel,tele vue 2x barlow .

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Re: Autoguiding accuracy and equipment

#8

Post by KenGS »


Hi Henk
I think you are limited by your guiding focal length. Your overall RMS is just 0.24 pixels which is pretty good. Also, your MinMo on each axis is 1.7 pixels which at 6.62"/pixel is 1.1". That means that PHD2 ignores any deviations less than 1.1" which sets the floor for your guiding. You can see on the graph how any deviation less than that results in no guide pulse.
The smaller pixels of the ASI120 should help a bit.
Unfortunately, on the screen shot the HFD value is not visible. That would indicate if the guide scope could be better focussed.
Also not visible is whether there were any calibration issues. The normalized RA rate of 16"/s is odd.
--Ken
GSO RC8 CF; Vixen 150mm F5 Newtonian c.1983; Super Polaris mount; DMD-1 controller; DIY Arduino controller; EQ6Pro mount; Synscan 3 controller; Avalon M-UNO; Vixen 60mm F12 refractor guidescope; Meade Lightbridge 12"; ASI1600MM-C; ATIK 420, Tamron 46A 70-210mm, ST80, Imaging Source DBK-21AU04-AS cam, Prostar/Toupcam GPCMOS0120KMB, ZWO ASI120MM-S, Bortle 5 sky.
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Re: Autoguiding accuracy and equipment

#9

Post by SkyHiker »


yobbo89 wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:22 am Pretty good calibration graph, but guiding :( , tried lowering the aggression and upping the hysteria to smooth things out?
I lowered the aggression as well but no improvement. I did not try changing the hysteresis separately. I suppose hysteresis can be caused by backlash but that seems rather small with the spring loaded worms. There was not much delay in finding the backlash during calibration.
yobbo89 wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:22 am , maybe get the guide scope off the counterweight bar and put it on the tube or try guiding with your main scope as a test.
The first post was based on a test done that way, using the Mak-Newt with the guide scope directly on it. I did that to rule out the weight of the Newt as a factor, and also the possibility of the counterweighted construction being a problem. The behavior tonight was mostly the same but I will go back to the old configuration next time for debugging's sake.
... Henk. :D Telescopes: GSO 12" Astrograph, "Comet Hunter" MN152, ES ED127CF, ES ED80, WO Redcat51, Z12, AT6RC, Celestron Skymaster 20x80, Mounts and tripod: Losmandy G11S with OnStep, AVX, Tiltall, Cameras: ASI2600MC, ASI2600MM, ASI120 mini, Fuji X-a1, Canon XSi, T6, ELPH 100HS, DIY: OnStep controller, Pi4b/power rig, Afocal adapter, Foldable Dob base, Az/Alt Dob setting circles, Accessories: ZWO 36 mm filter wheel, TV Paracorr 2, Baader MPCC Mk III, ES FF, SSAG, QHY OAG-M, EAF electronic focuser, Plossls, Barlows, Telrad, Laser collimators (Seben LK1, Z12, Howie Glatter), Cheshire, 2 Orion RACIs 8x50, Software: KStars-Ekos, DSS, PHD2, Nebulosity, Photo Gallery, Gimp, CHDK, Computers:Pi4b, 2x running KStars/Ekos, Toshiba Satellite 17", Website:Henk's astro images
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Re: Autoguiding accuracy and equipment

#10

Post by SkyHiker »


KenGS wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 10:38 am Hi Henk
I think you are limited by your guiding focal length. Your overall RMS is just 0.24 pixels which is pretty good. Also, your MinMo on each axis is 1.7 pixels which at 6.62"/pixel is 1.1". That means that PHD2 ignores any deviations less than 1.1" which sets the floor for your guiding. You can see on the graph how any deviation less than that results in no guide pulse.
That is something I can change next time I try. Thanks for pointing that out.
KenGS wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 10:38 am The smaller pixels of the ASI120 should help a bit.
I ordered the ASI120MM mini because it was cheap and had good reviews but it's not going to be loads better than my QHY5 at 120 mm FL unfortunately. Maybe I can separate the sensor and attach my 4.5" supermarket Newt as a guide scope. Orion documented that this guider configuration should work up to 1500 mm while the Newt is 1200 mm (and of course it works reasonably well for taking decent images just not 0.5" RMS).

If it helps, I did try the multi-star guiding in Ekos. It did not change things much but also did not make it worse. One would think that using more guide stars should reduce the measurement noise levels and may make a shorter FL more capable.
KenGS wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 10:38 am Unfortunately, on the screen shot the HFD value is not visible. That would indicate if the guide scope could be better focussed.
It's 4.64 px. Here is the complete text:

Calibration Begins at 2021-03-22 06:42:22
Equipment Profile = My Equipment
Dither = both axes, Dither scale = 1.000, Image noise reduction = none, Guide-frame time lapse = 0, Server enabled
Pixel scale = 6.62 arc-sec/px, Binning = 1, Focal length = 162 mm
Search region = 32 px, Star mass tolerance = 50.0%
Camera = QHY 5, gain = 40, full size = 1280 x 1024, no dark, no defect map, pixel size = 5.2 um
Exposure = 1000 ms
Mount = INDI Mount [LX200 OnStep], Calibration Step = 750 ms, Calibration Distance = 25 px, Assume orthogonal axes = no
RA Guide Speed = 15.0 a-s/s, Dec Guide Speed = 15.0 a-s/s
RA = 9.95 hr, Dec = 69.1 deg, Hour angle = -9.95 hr, Pier side = West, Rotator pos = N/A, Alt = 16.0 deg, Az = 10.9 deg
Lock position = 207.538, 552.056, Star position = 207.908, 551.998, HFD = 4.64 px
West calibration complete. Angle = 86.7 deg, Rate = 0.861 px/sec, Parity = Even
North calibration complete. Angle = 176.5 deg, Rate = 1.674 px/sec, Parity = Even
KenGS wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 10:38 am Also not visible is whether there were any calibration issues. The normalized RA rate of 16"/s is odd.
I had a calibration issue the first time when the box was 15 pixels. It instantly lost the guide star in DEC when testing the backlash. This happened repeatedly, by the same amount. The problem went away after I set the box to 32 pixels. I was pointed at Bode's galaxy, which may be why more steps were needed in RA. I was very pleased with the calibration graph, I can't recall seeing such a nice one ever before with my AVX.

I'm glad that there was nothing glaringly obvious wrong (except the minimum movement perhaps). I will read up on the various issues in the documentation and on CN so I can hopefully diagnose it myself, try again with the MN and normal guide scope mounting, and will let you know if I achieve improvement.
... Henk. :D Telescopes: GSO 12" Astrograph, "Comet Hunter" MN152, ES ED127CF, ES ED80, WO Redcat51, Z12, AT6RC, Celestron Skymaster 20x80, Mounts and tripod: Losmandy G11S with OnStep, AVX, Tiltall, Cameras: ASI2600MC, ASI2600MM, ASI120 mini, Fuji X-a1, Canon XSi, T6, ELPH 100HS, DIY: OnStep controller, Pi4b/power rig, Afocal adapter, Foldable Dob base, Az/Alt Dob setting circles, Accessories: ZWO 36 mm filter wheel, TV Paracorr 2, Baader MPCC Mk III, ES FF, SSAG, QHY OAG-M, EAF electronic focuser, Plossls, Barlows, Telrad, Laser collimators (Seben LK1, Z12, Howie Glatter), Cheshire, 2 Orion RACIs 8x50, Software: KStars-Ekos, DSS, PHD2, Nebulosity, Photo Gallery, Gimp, CHDK, Computers:Pi4b, 2x running KStars/Ekos, Toshiba Satellite 17", Website:Henk's astro images
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Re: Autoguiding accuracy and equipment

#11

Post by yobbo89 »


i dunno, ken might be onto something with the minmo on the pixels , i use 0.27 pixel, somewhere between 0.20 and 0.50 is in the ball park for me,

your guide graph seems very obviously erratic and very oscillation like , there's a correction then straight after another correction the opposite way
scopes :gso/bintel f4 12"truss tube, bresser messier ar127s /skywatcher 10'' dob,meade 12'' f10 lx200 sct
cameras : asi 1600mm-c/asi1600mm-c,asi120mc,prostar lp guidecam, nikkon d60, sony a7,asi 290 mm
mounts : eq6 pro/eq8/mesu 200 v2
filters : 2'' astronomik lp/badder lrgb h-a,sII,oIII,h-b,Baader Solar Continuum, chroma 3nm ha,sii,oiii,nii,rgb,lowglow,uv/ir,Thousand Oaks Solar Filter,1.25'' #47 violet,pro planet 742 ir,pro planet 807 ir,pro planet 642 bp ir.
extras : skywatcher f4 aplanatic cc, Baader MPCC MKIII Coma Corrector,Orion Field Flattener,zwo 1.25''adc.starlight maxi 2" 9x filter wheel,tele vue 2x barlow .

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Re: Autoguiding accuracy and equipment

#12

Post by KenGS »


HFD 4.64 pixels @ 6.62 arcsec/px equates to over 30 arcsec so the guide scope is probably out of focus. Better focus wont necessarily improve the guidign numbers but should help with getting better images as the guiding will be more accurate. Also check the star profile to ensure the guide star is not saturated.
Having a box of 32px at that scale is worrying. If you are having problems during backlash removal in calibration, remove it manually by nudging the mount north before calibrating.
--Ken
GSO RC8 CF; Vixen 150mm F5 Newtonian c.1983; Super Polaris mount; DMD-1 controller; DIY Arduino controller; EQ6Pro mount; Synscan 3 controller; Avalon M-UNO; Vixen 60mm F12 refractor guidescope; Meade Lightbridge 12"; ASI1600MM-C; ATIK 420, Tamron 46A 70-210mm, ST80, Imaging Source DBK-21AU04-AS cam, Prostar/Toupcam GPCMOS0120KMB, ZWO ASI120MM-S, Bortle 5 sky.
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Re: Autoguiding accuracy and equipment

#13

Post by SkyHiker »


KenGS wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 5:14 am HFD 4.64 pixels @ 6.62 arcsec/px equates to over 30 arcsec so the guide scope is probably out of focus. Better focus wont necessarily improve the guidign numbers but should help with getting better images as the guiding will be more accurate. Also check the star profile to ensure the guide star is not saturated.
Having a box of 32px at that scale is worrying. If you are having problems during backlash removal in calibration, remove it manually by nudging the mount north before calibrating.
Yes it was out of focus. I refocused it tonight. Unfortunately the wind was even worse so not much luck tonight.

I normally use a box of 16 or 8 in Ekos, in PHD2 I'm still getting used to the GUI. I would rather use Ekos because of the GUI connection hassle and also the nicer GUI.

Another opportunity is to tighten the clutches less. On the Losmandy I board was someone who got very good guiding with the clutches rather loose. Tight clutches like I use can cause more friction in the roller bearings.
... Henk. :D Telescopes: GSO 12" Astrograph, "Comet Hunter" MN152, ES ED127CF, ES ED80, WO Redcat51, Z12, AT6RC, Celestron Skymaster 20x80, Mounts and tripod: Losmandy G11S with OnStep, AVX, Tiltall, Cameras: ASI2600MC, ASI2600MM, ASI120 mini, Fuji X-a1, Canon XSi, T6, ELPH 100HS, DIY: OnStep controller, Pi4b/power rig, Afocal adapter, Foldable Dob base, Az/Alt Dob setting circles, Accessories: ZWO 36 mm filter wheel, TV Paracorr 2, Baader MPCC Mk III, ES FF, SSAG, QHY OAG-M, EAF electronic focuser, Plossls, Barlows, Telrad, Laser collimators (Seben LK1, Z12, Howie Glatter), Cheshire, 2 Orion RACIs 8x50, Software: KStars-Ekos, DSS, PHD2, Nebulosity, Photo Gallery, Gimp, CHDK, Computers:Pi4b, 2x running KStars/Ekos, Toshiba Satellite 17", Website:Henk's astro images
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