Fighting Shill and Illegitamit Reviewers

We all started somewhere! We are a friendly bunch! Most of your questions can be posted here, but if you are interested in Astrophotography please use the new Beginner Astrophotography forum. The response time will be much better.
Post Reply
User avatar
PalomarJack
Earth Ambassador
Articles: 0
Offline
Posts: 41
Joined: Fri Nov 22, 2019 9:50 pm
4
Location: Tehachapi, Ca
Status:
Offline

Fighting Shill and Illegitamit Reviewers

#1

Post by PalomarJack »


It's long, so grab a cup of coffee or tea and kick back. I also hope it gets pinned.

I just finished an article on a news aggregator site that should be alarming. It was on Buzzfeed, usually useless "junk-food for the brain" and downright biased so-called "news", but, occasionally they swerve into something useful. It was about shill reviewers being paid to post good reviews in return for third party products or rebates on Amazon and other similar sites. And it is far more common than you may think. These people are addicted to this because to them they are getting free things for their lies. They think it is harmless, in all actuality they are "thieves by proxy" employed by crooked knock-off peddlers. We depend on honest reviews and opinions to weed out potential junk and knock-off goods and services and along come these tools who only want to satisfy their weird addiction that is no different than a hoarder or gambling. They do not have the common sense or intelligence to see what they are doing to themselves or others. Yes, shill reviews affects others, obviously. But how can I make the connection to gambling and hoarding addictions? They have their outside victims, too. A hoarders vermin infestation infests the neighbourhood, the gamblers losses takes food and housing from their family, that's how.

But I digress, it is not the fault of Amazon, for example, they have strict rules governing this. They are fighting a losing battle. These morons will run several backup accounts linked to different cash cards that can be purchased at retail stores or are just plane secretive about it. So how can we fight this scum? Very easy, by using something they don't have, common sense. True, it's not 100% effective, but certainly is well over 95. And usually the remaining can be rectified with refunds and returns.

So, where to begin? First, never completely depend on the reviews on the retail site. They are not reviews, they are opinions. Reviews are conducted by people and companies who compare the merchandise to the same or similar offerings by other manufacturers or sellers. They also test the product to it's fullest in an attempt to find deficiencies or defects. They don't depend on free products shipped to them by the manufacturer or seller. These can be modified, optimized or "cherry picked" to fetch a better review. A reputable reviewer will purchase anonymously the product to be reviewed, sometimes, more than one to eliminate "fluke good quality". That is not to say that opinions can not be valuable, they can, as long as they are approached with intelligent scepticism.

So, how do I weed out the reviews from the opinions and outright lies? First, find a review site geared to your interest. One way is to use a search engine to find a review on the item of interest, and that is not Google. They are paid or biased to put certain listings at the top without regard to authenticity, Not to mention their privacy policies, or, lack there of. Use Duckduckgo for example. Like Dogpile it sounds odd and flaky, but works without privacy concerns.

1. Enter something like "Tele Vue Ethos review". Include as much relevant information as you can, but not an entire paragraph, for example. You will get some adds that state for example the "The Tele Vue Ethos had an excellent review, so buy it here for less", but those are easy to spot most times without even opening the site.

2. You can limit this by using advanced search terms and operators. Each search engine is different, but they all have them. For example, "Tele Vue Ethos" +review -eBay would search for a review of a Tele Vue Ethos, but not on ebay or a place, like a forum for example, that mentions eBay.

3. Don't go by one reviewer, they are people and, well, as such are fallible. Also, watch for incorrectly used terms in the review that seem out of place or for excessive grammatical errors. If you find this, don't waste your valuable time and move on. Also, Sky and Telescope and Astronomy magazines run frequent reviews and they know what they are talking about. Search their sites for current or past reviews.

Now, on to retail site reviews, or as I stated, opinions. Sometimes an item is kind of new and hasn't been reviewed yet or is just not on any reviewers "radar", yet or ever. How do you weed out the shills from the useful opinions?

1. Search forums like this one, for example. Shill reviewers will almost certainly never post anything here, They are too generalized. Your friends and acquaintances here generally will not steer you wrong. But, we are not infallible either. One can have the occasional "Owners Ego", that basically says "I own it, so it's the best". I'm not out to step on toes, but it is an attitude that does exist. If you are offering an opinion, be as removed and objective as you can. If the drive in the fork mount of your telescope has a periodic error and it does not affect your visual use of the instrument, mention it. The other fellow may intend to use it for photography and will need to know of the potential problem. Lastly, thank the one who gave you the information so valuable to you, it's a very good feeling for both of you.

2. On-site opinions can be useful, too, if used intelligently. You can not depend on listings from different third party sellers because the reviews are grouped by product, not seller. When you read opinions, start with the one and two stars first. Some are kind of amusing. But know there is also competitive shilling, bad reviews from a competing brand or seller. Not common, they are usually too occupied running their own businesses. Repetitive good or bad opinions that read like boilerplate documents are most certainly shill reviews. Now, when reading the four and five star opinions watch for language you would not use in describing the item or how it is used to another person like yourself. You cannot learn this from a book or other opinions and these tools don't have the time or patience to take away from their addiction, anyway. For example, a shill eyepiece review would be "The picture looks real nice and sharp, I would buy another one". Looks good, right? Wrong. This is how I would describe it short and sweet, "On my 8"/200mm f/6 the image presented has good definition to the edge of the 68 degree apparent field with no visible distortion or false, or lateral color. I am going to purchase the 10mm focal length model next". See, a shill reviewer would never, ever use that language, but, even if you are a complete newbie, you know instantly that I know what I am talking about and can probably trust my opinion. But, don't just take my word for it, you don't know me and the f/4 like maybe you have may be useless with that eyepiece. Barring a good opinion or unusable product, there is always return and exchange or refund.

3. If "A picture is worth a thousand words", holding the item in your hand and trying it in person is most certainly worth an entire book. To get the opinion one on one with the questions you need answered instantly is priceless. Trying out the candidate accessory is also priceless, not to mention the friendships to be made. Join a club or go to a star party and you will have access to more reviews, opinions and equipment to try than you will know what to do with. If you are short of cash, maybe they have a one time reduced rate to join for those with a hardship. At least go and network.

There you go, hopefully I have inoculated you better to these parasites infesting the on line retail world better. Obviously this information can protect you from being taken on more than amateur astronomy goods. Feel free to "lift" it and modify it for any other forums you may be a member of. I would never claim a copyright on something like this. But maybe mention where and who it came from, if you will. If not, who cares either way. Just the thought of damaging these losers is enough for me.
I'm here to do two things, build something and dump some light down it.

8" f/6 Newtonian on a German equatorial mount, all DIY.
DIY 90mm f/10 refractor on old medium duty Edmund Scientific German equatorial mount.
User avatar
russmax
Mars Ambassador
Articles: 0
Offline
Posts: 142
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:20 am
4
Location: Austin, Texas, United States
Status:
Offline

Re: Fighting Shill and Illegitamit Reviewers

#2

Post by russmax »


Read reviews of similar items that you know to be junk. If known junk gets positive reviews, then you know you've found a shill.

Of course, the behavior your describing is the same as the ones in nearly every magazine that accepts advertising. Integrity is just not as common as one would hope.

Russmax
----------
Celestron AVX 8" SCT & Omni XLT 102 AZ
Image
User avatar
Bigzmey United States of America
Moderator
Moderator
Articles: 8
Online
Posts: 7645
Joined: Sat May 11, 2019 7:55 pm
4
Location: San Diego, CA USA
Status:
Online

TSS Awards Badges

Re: Fighting Shill and Illegitamit Reviewers

#3

Post by Bigzmey »


Finding impartial and qualified reviews is not an easy task. Once you get enough experience you could sift through the available resources (even at Amazon) for the bits of info you are looking for.

For the beginners the best approach is to post questions or PM more experienced friends for the feedback on forums like our.
Scopes: Stellarvue: SV102ED; Celestron: 9.25" EdgeHD, 8" SCT, 150ST, Onyx 80ED; iOptron: Hankmeister 6" Mak; SW: 7" Mak; Meade: 80ST.
Mounts: SW: SkyTee2, AzGTi; iOptron: AZMP; ES: Twilight I; Bresser: EXOS2; UA: MicroStar.
Binos: APM: 100-90 APO; Canon: IS 15x50; Orion: Binoviewer, LG II 15x70, WV 10x50, Nikon: AE 16x50, 10x50, 8x40.
EPs: Pentax: XWs & XFs; TeleVue: Delites, Panoptic & Plossls; ES: 68, 62; Vixen: SLVs; Baader: BCOs, Aspherics, Mark IV.
Diagonals: Baader: BBHS mirror, Zeiss Spec T2 prism, Clicklock dielectric; TeleVue: Evebrite dielectric; AltairAstro: 2" prism.
Filters: Lumicon: DeepSky, UHC, OIII, H-beta; Baader: Moon & SkyGlow, Contrast Booster, UHC-S, 6-color set; Astronomik: UHC.
Solar: HA: Lunt 50mm single stack, W/L: Meade Herschel wedge.

Observing: DSOs: 3106 (Completed: Messier, Herschel 1, 2, 3. In progress: H2,500: 2180, S110: 77). Doubles: 2437, Comets: 34, Asteroids: 257
User avatar
mikemarotta
Orion Spur Ambassador
Articles: 0
Offline
Posts: 662
Joined: Sun Nov 17, 2019 2:37 pm
4
Location: Austin, Texas, USA
Status:
Offline

TSS Awards Badges

Re: Fighting Shill and Illegitamit Reviewers

#4

Post by mikemarotta »


PalomarJack wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2019 11:08 pm ... they are getting free things for their lies. ... So how can we fight this scum? Very easy, by using something they don't have, common sense. True, it's not 100% effective, but certainly is well over 95. And usually the remaining can be rectified with refunds and returns.
(1) Anyone who pays for an advertisement in a print publication such as Sky & Telescope will most likely be selling reliable products and will stand behind their return policy.

(2) Sky & Tel also reviews products.

(3) If you belong to a local club, you can ask your friends for recommendations of makes, models, sellers, and suppliers.

(4) You can come to this forum and ask.
---------------------------------------
Michael E. Marotta
Astro-Tech 115 mm APO Refractor Explore Scientific 102 mm f/6.47 Refractor Explore Scientific 102 mm f/9.8 Refractor Bresser 8-inch Newtonian Reflector Plössls from 40 to 6 mm Nagler Series-1 7mm. nonMeade 14 mm. Mounts: Celestron AVX, Explore Twilight I Alt-Az, Explore EXOS German Equatorial
User avatar
pakarinen United States of America
Inter-Galactic Ambassador
Articles: 0
Offline
Posts: 4029
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:33 pm
4
Location: NE Illinois
Status:
Offline

TSS Awards Badges

Re: Fighting Shill and Illegitamit Reviewers

#5

Post by pakarinen »


Sky News, Sky at Night, and Astronomy post reviews also. SatN is by the BBC, so they're more Eurocentric, but IMO their reviews are quite good.
=============================================================================
I drink tea, I read books, I look at stars when I'm not cursing clouds. It's what I do.
=============================================================================
AT50, AT72EDII, ST80, ST102; Scopetech Zero, AZ-GTi, AZ Pronto; Innorel RT90C, Oberwerk 5000; Orion Giantview 15x70s, Vortex 8x42s, Navy surplus 7x50s, Nikon 10x50s
User avatar
goldstar
Jupiter Ambassador
Articles: 0
Offline
Posts: 291
Joined: Sat May 11, 2019 6:40 pm
4
Location: New York State
Status:
Offline

Re: Fighting Shill and Illegitamit Reviewers

#6

Post by goldstar »


I stopped falling for shills years ago.
I find it is usually easy to spot them when it comes to astro equipment reviews. Often you see odd or incorrect usage of specialist terms which gives the game away.
On a similar vein has anyone noticed the number of "verified" purchaser reviews that extol the virtues of a recently purchased item only to end with " I have not used this item yet"! ??? WTH?
Frequently in telescope reviews it is obvious the purchaser has no idea what he has bought or how to use it. It is not enough for us to learn that"I can't see a thing through this piece of junk!" with an accompanying 1 out of 5 rating. Perhaps he left the lens cap on.....
This contributes nothing except to artificially skew the ratings unjustifiably to the negative.

As stated often above: Come to the experts on TSS....The truth is out here...
Scopes: 200mm f6 DOB:CR 6 150 mm f 7.5 refractor, SW ED 80 mm f 7.5. 2 X 80 mm f7.5 guides.
Mount: AVX.
NexGuide auto guider. Cameras 3 Ti and XS modded. I optron Skytracker.
Motley EP collection.
User avatar
notFritzArgelander
In Memory
In Memory
Articles: 0
Offline
Posts: 14925
Joined: Fri May 10, 2019 4:13 pm
4
Location: Idaho US
Status:
Offline

TSS Awards Badges

Re: Fighting Shill and Illegitamit Reviewers

#7

Post by notFritzArgelander »


Generally good advice. On reflection several of us with long experience might be accused of owner's ego, unjustly though. Speaking only for myself I do not believe that because I own it must be best. I do think that with 65 years observing experience I'm justified in thinking I've chosen well. For instance, from reviews of folks here I respect I strongly believe that Pentax XWs would best the TV Panoptic / Delos set I've chosen. Having retired there are now limits to how much eyepiece testing I can do.
Scopes: Refs: Orion ST80, SV 80EDA f7, TS 102ED f11 Newts: AWB 130mm, f5, Z12 f5; Cats: VMC110L, Intes MK66,VMC200L f9.75 EPs: KK Fujiyama Orthoscopics, 2x Vixen NPLs (40-6mm) and BCOs, Baader Mark IV zooms, TV Panoptics, Delos, Plossl 32-8mm. Mixed brand Masuyama/Astroplans Binoculars: Nikon Aculon 10x50, Celestron 15x70, Baader Maxbright. Mounts: Star Seeker IV, Vixen Porta II, Celestron CG5
User avatar
j.gardavsky Germany
Orion Spur Ambassador
Articles: 0
Offline
Posts: 711
Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:52 pm
4
Location: Germany
Status:
Offline

TSS Awards Badges

Re: Fighting Shill and Illegitamit Reviewers

#8

Post by j.gardavsky »


Thank you Jack for posting about the reviews and reviewers.

Here is my list for what to ignore the reviews:
1. Most of the product reviews just list the technical parameters, which I can read elsewhere.
2. The review is based on having tested the scope or accessory in breaks between the clouds, or under the moonshine.
3. The review is based on having tested the scope on the selected DSOs, which are within a reach of the opera glasses.
4. The reviewer is not known for having a record of his own observing reports.

Best,
JG
6" F/5 Sky-Watcher achro, 2" BBHS Star Diagonal, 2" zenith prism, 1.25" Takahashi prism
Leica 82mm APO Televid
Eyepieces: Docter UWA; Leica B WW and WW Asph. Zoom; Leica HC Plan S and L, monocentric; Pentax SMC XW, O-, XO; Tak MC O, Carl Zeiss B WW, and Pl, E-Pl, S-Pl, W-Pl;
Swarovski SW; Baader Symmetric Diascope Edition; Nikon NAV SW, ; TMB supermonocentric; Rodenstock; Vixen HR; TV Delos
Filters: Astrodon, Astronomik, Baader, Balzers, Zeiss West and East, Lumicon
Binoculars (7x42 up to 15x85): Docter Nobilem, Leica Ultravid, Nikon Astroluxe, Swarovski EL Swarovision; BA8 (Kunming Optical)
User avatar
j.gardavsky Germany
Orion Spur Ambassador
Articles: 0
Offline
Posts: 711
Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:52 pm
4
Location: Germany
Status:
Offline

TSS Awards Badges

Re: Fighting Shill and Illegitamit Reviewers

#9

Post by j.gardavsky »


notFritzArgelander wrote: ↑Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:48 pm Generally good advice. On reflection several of us with long experience might be accused of owner's ego, unjustly though. Speaking only for myself I do not believe that because I own it must be best. I do think that with 65 years observing experience I'm justified in thinking I've chosen well. For instance, from reviews of folks here I respect I strongly believe that Pentax XWs would best the TV Panoptic / Delos set I've chosen. Having retired there are now limits to how much eyepiece testing I can do.
Some of the Pentax XW are very good, and so are some of the Delos and Panoptics.
It is hardly possible to make a scaled series of focus lengths - all premium performers, so, pick up the best, and leave the rest.

Moreover, our eyes are all slightly different, and so are our preferences,
JG
6" F/5 Sky-Watcher achro, 2" BBHS Star Diagonal, 2" zenith prism, 1.25" Takahashi prism
Leica 82mm APO Televid
Eyepieces: Docter UWA; Leica B WW and WW Asph. Zoom; Leica HC Plan S and L, monocentric; Pentax SMC XW, O-, XO; Tak MC O, Carl Zeiss B WW, and Pl, E-Pl, S-Pl, W-Pl;
Swarovski SW; Baader Symmetric Diascope Edition; Nikon NAV SW, ; TMB supermonocentric; Rodenstock; Vixen HR; TV Delos
Filters: Astrodon, Astronomik, Baader, Balzers, Zeiss West and East, Lumicon
Binoculars (7x42 up to 15x85): Docter Nobilem, Leica Ultravid, Nikon Astroluxe, Swarovski EL Swarovision; BA8 (Kunming Optical)
User avatar
GCoyote United States of America
Local Group Ambassador
Articles: 0
Offline
Posts: 2708
Joined: Mon May 13, 2019 2:53 am
4
Location: Laurel, MD, USA
Status:
Offline

Re: Fighting Shill and Illegitamit Reviewers

#10

Post by GCoyote »


1. Fake reviews tend to be either "1" or "5" depending on who is paying for it. Skip those and look for the 2-4 ratings.
2. People are more likely to post a negative rating/review than a positive one. Anger is a significant motivator.
3. Most people don't use a product long enough to have an informed opinion. Of those that have, most can't write. Check the date of the review vs the date of the product release.
4. Look for a reviewer who uses the product the way you plan to use it. I don't shoot video with my phone and skip reviews that dwell on such things.
5. There's an app for that: https://www.fakespot.com/
Any metaphor will tear if stretched over too much reality.
Gary C

Celestron Astro Master 130mm f5 Newtonian GEM
Meade 114-EQ-DH f7.9 Newtonian w/ manual GEM
Bushnell 90mm f13.9 Catadioptric
Gskyer 80mm f5 Alt/Az refractor
Jason 10x50 Binoculars
Celestron 7x50 Binoculars
Svbony 2.1x42 Binoculars
(And a bunch of stuff I'm still trying to fix or find parts for.)
GONKO
Earth Ambassador
Articles: 0
Offline
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:07 am
4
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Status:
Offline

Re: Fighting Shill and Illegitamit Reviewers

#11

Post by GONKO »


When it comes to buying specialised stuff, like telescopes, motorcycle stuff, darts etc., I always go to the forums. These are the actual users with miles on the clock in regard to usage and unbiased opinions (for the most part). 9
Shabadoo
Orion Spur Ambassador
Articles: 0
Offline
Posts: 825
Joined: Wed May 15, 2019 4:27 am
4
Location: Mount Pocono, Pa, Usa
Status:
Offline

TSS Awards Badges

Re: Fighting Shill and Illegitamit Reviewers

#12

Post by Shabadoo »


Thank you very much for your fine article. It was well written and enlightening.
Jeff
Dad Joke King (ask my kids); Cereal killer
Orion Skyview pro 8 f5.
Binos: Polaris/wingspan 8x42 Ed/HD
User avatar
PalomarJack
Earth Ambassador
Articles: 0
Offline
Posts: 41
Joined: Fri Nov 22, 2019 9:50 pm
4
Location: Tehachapi, Ca
Status:
Offline

Re: Fighting Shill and Illegitamit Reviewers

#13

Post by PalomarJack »


Thank you everybody who has replied so far, and who will. I have written a few articles for an Amateur Radio site and it's kind of fun. I have a few more ideas but I have to flesh them out. We'll see.

Chuck R.
I'm here to do two things, build something and dump some light down it.

8" f/6 Newtonian on a German equatorial mount, all DIY.
DIY 90mm f/10 refractor on old medium duty Edmund Scientific German equatorial mount.
User avatar
Don Alvarez
Mars Ambassador
Articles: 0
Offline
Posts: 198
Joined: Tue May 14, 2019 1:02 pm
4
Location: Coral Springs
Status:
Offline

TSS Awards Badges

Re: Fighting Shill and Illegitamit Reviewers

#14

Post by Don Alvarez »


GCoyote wrote: ↑Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:43 pm3. Most people don't use a product long enough to have an informed opinion. Of those that have, most can't write. Check the date of the review vs the date of the product release.
Some people wont use a product AT ALL. I've seen way to many 1-star reviews go something like:

"Got this for a present on my birthday but had already bought SimilarProductFromBrandB which I believe is probably better so I sent it back."

Like you didn't even bother to open the box. Why even waste time writing a review?
Telescopes: 10" SkyLine Dobsonian, 6" Apertura F5 Newt, Celestron Nextar GT90, Meade Infinity 80
EP: 5.5mm, 8.8mm, 14mm, 20mm, 24mm Meade 5000 UWA's, BCO's w/ Q-Turret, 26mm, 32mm, 40mm Meade 4000 Plossls, Orion Expanse, 30mm, 20mm, 15mm GSO Superview, Various others.
Binocs: 15x70 Celestron Skymaster, 10x50 Levenhuk Karma Pro, 10x42 Bushnell, 8x42 Sans & Streiffe
Mounts: Meade LX70 with dual axis motors, Celestron GT, More miscellaneous tripods than a Martian invasion.

"The heavens themselves, the planets, and this center observe degree, priority, and place,
Insisture, course, proportion, season, form, office, and custom, in all line of order.”
User avatar
Lady Fraktor Slovakia
Universal Ambassador
Articles: 0
Offline
Posts: 9965
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:14 pm
4
Location: Slovakia
Status:
Offline

Re: Fighting Shill and Illegitamit Reviewers

#15

Post by Lady Fraktor »


One thing that would drive me crazy when people would post links to Amazon reviews.
Read the review, the product is not actually mentioned in anything but vague terms like good eyepiece, go to a totally different eyepiece and there is the same review by the same reviewer.
I have seen this occur multiple times.
Gabrielle
See Far Sticks: Elita 103/1575, AOM FLT 105/1000, Bresser 127/1200 BV, Nočný stopár 152/1200, Vyrobené doma 70/700, Stellarvue NHNG DX 80/552, TAL RS 100/1000, Vixen SD115s/885
EQ: TAL MT-1, Vixen SXP, SXP2, AXJ, AXD
Az/Alt: AYO Digi II, Stellarvue M2C, Argo Navis encoders on both
Tripods: Berlebach Planet (2), Uni 28 Astro, Report 372, TAL factory maple, Vixen ASG-CB90, Vixen AXD-TR102
Diagonals: Astro-Physics, Baader Amici, Baader Herschel, iStar Blue, Stellarvue DX, Tak prism, TAL, Vixen
Eyepieces: Antares to Zeiss (1011110)
The only culture I have is from yogurt
Image
User avatar
gregl
Milky Way Ambassador
Articles: 0
Online
Posts: 1093
Joined: Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:30 am
4
Location: California
Status:
Online

Re: Fighting Shill and Illegitamit Reviewers

#16

Post by gregl »


I question magazine reviews when the exact product is also in an ad in that issue, sometimes directly across from the review. While I haven't seen this in astro mags, I have seen it elsewhere.

I read reviews to look for a common thread. Negative reviews that complain about something other than the product itself are ignored. But if there are a number of reviews that mention the same or a similar problem, then I will take them into consideration.

In the end, buying from a reputable seller with a reasonable return policy is the best bet.
Markmjm United States of America
Mars Ambassador
Articles: 0
Offline
Posts: 115
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:00 pm
4
Location: California
Status:
Offline

Re: Fighting Shill and Illegitamit Reviewers

#17

Post by Markmjm »


GCoyote wrote: ↑Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:43 pm
4. Look for a reviewer who uses the product the way you plan to use it. I don't shoot video with my phone and skip reviews that dwell on such things.
Excellent insight. đź‘Ť
Post Reply

Create an account or sign in to join the discussion

You need to be a member in order to post a reply

Create an account

Not a member? register to join our community
Members can start their own topics & subscribe to topics
It’s free and only takes a minute

Register

Sign in

Return to “Beginners forum”