Come join the friendliest, most engaging and inclusive astronomy forum geared for beginners and advanced telescope users, astrophotography devotees, plus check out our "Astro" goods vendors.
Come join the friendliest, most engaging and inclusive astronomy forum geared for beginners and advanced telescope users, astrophotography devotees, plus check out our "Astro" goods vendors.
We all started somewhere! We are a friendly bunch! Most of your questions can be posted here, but if you are interested in Astrophotography please use the new Beginner Astrophotography forum. The response time will be much better.
SO, as a matter of curiosity this friend of mine is experiencing meditations on the economic realm of the astrograph. He just discovered he might be getting a sizeable bonus from his company in some months and typical of what one does when they realize they are about to come into a sum of money they instantly begin fantasizing about the ways in which they can spend it. Human nature. The idea this friend of mine explains is to build on this nice lightly used EQ mount he has to build a kit better than a GT mount he might happen to own that freakishly looks just like mine and get beyond 8 or 16s exposures which is the best the GT can do. This platform he feels is good enough to build on his experiences with short exposure AP. So which OTA? Apertura has a very nice looking GSO made 6" F5 reflector OTA for around 2 bills, BUT, they may not reach focus with a camera. That's a gamble. Inexplicably, a 6" F4 astrograph even though shorter, built with less material is a hundred dollars more at $299. Add a coma corrector which will probably be a necessity at F4 and the total package price here jumps over $420.
Now wait a minute here. My friend started looking for an inexpensive reflector but now he is looking a price range where one might consider an ED telescope instead, like maybe Orion's ED80 ($449) Now there is a dilemma. I'm at a loss. The gambler in me says go for the 6" F5. If he can't reach focus using a camera, well he'll still have a solid OTA and kit that'll be lighter and easier to move around than his 10" dob, which also amazingly looks exactly like mine. One side of my brain says, short exposure AP should benefit more form the large aperture and faster focal ratio of the F4 newt and just suck it up and eat the cost of the coma corrector. Then there is the side of me that just says get the frac, you know you want to graduate to an APO (is the ED80 really an APO? I've read arguments its not)
What shall I tell my friend? There's probably factors I'm not considering, such as what other advantages a Newt astrograph might have over an ED telescope other than it generates awesome diffraction spikes.
"The heavens themselves, the planets, and this center observe degree, priority, and place,
Insisture, course, proportion, season, form, office, and custom, in all line of order.”
Ha, ha, that's good: you used "astrophotography" and "budget" in the same sentence!
I'd go with a small, fast refractor on a solid mount like an AVX or HEQ5. No coma corrector required. No focusing issues with a DSLR. Forgiving of tracking/guiding errors.
DSO AP:Orion 200mm f/4 Newtonian Astrograph; ATIK 383L+; EFW2 filter wheel; Astrodon Ha,Oiii,LRGB filters; KWIQ/QHY5 guide scope; Planetary AP:Celestron C-11; ZWO ASI120MC; Portable: Celestron C-8 on HEQ5 pro; C-90 on wedge; 20x80 binos; Etc: Canon 350D; Various EPs, etc. Obs: 8' Exploradome; iOptron CEM60 (pier); Helena Observatory (H2O)Astrobin
Yeah, you can't say AP and GT mount in the same sentence. Not unless you are willing to make some significant sacrifices. If you are set on using the GT mount, bear in mind that it can hold only 5lbs (yes, that's right, 5lbs). Meaning that you should not load this poor mount with greater than 3lbs. You sneeze with greater than 3lbs of force!!! Your best bet is to use just your DSLR+Lens with this mount. Take a look at this post to see what you can do IF you put your GT mount on a wedge. viewtopic.php?f=24&t=3129
If you realize that the time for relegating the GT to visual use only is now, then go with Kathy's suggestion above. It's a good one.
Well, I suppose astrophotography is a relative term. It doesn't actually have to be good. Take a picture of the moon with your cellphone that comes out as an overexposed blob, tecnically still astrophotography.
"The heavens themselves, the planets, and this center observe degree, priority, and place,
Insisture, course, proportion, season, form, office, and custom, in all line of order.”
JayTee wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:26 pm
Yeah, you can't say AP and GT mount in the same sentence. Not unless you are willing to make some significant sacrifices. If you are set on using the GT mount, bear in mind that it can hold only 5lbs (yes, that's right, 5lbs). Meaning that you should not load this poor mount with greater than 3lbs. You sneeze with greater than 3lbs of force!!! Your best bet is to use just your DSLR+Lens with this mount. Take a look at this post to see what you can do IF you put your GT mount on a wedge. viewtopic.php?f=24&t=3129
If you realize that the time for relegating the GT to visual use only is now, then go with Kathy's suggestion above. It's a good one.
Cheers,
JT
Not me! Friend of mine. Actually moving AP duties away from the GT mount and going to try and make a go of it with the LX70. The GT is going back to visual duty or used for outreach.
"The heavens themselves, the planets, and this center observe degree, priority, and place,
Insisture, course, proportion, season, form, office, and custom, in all line of order.”
Your friend has an interesting dilemma. The 6" f4 is more expensive than the f5 because it's a deeper mirror curve and requires more testing to get right.
Something with a shorter focal length is easier to track successfully. Best of luck to your friend.
Scopes: Refs: Orion ST80, SV 80EDA f7, TS 102ED f11 Newts: AWB 130mm, f5, Z12 f5; Cats: VMC110L, Intes MK66,VMC200L f9.75 EPs: KK Fujiyama Orthoscopics, 2x Vixen NPLs (40-6mm) and BCOs, Baader Mark IV zooms, TV Panoptics, Delos, Plossl 32-8mm. Mixed brand Masuyama/Astroplans Binoculars: Nikon Aculon 10x50, Celestron 15x70, Baader Maxbright. Mounts: Star Seeker IV, Vixen Porta II, Celestron CG5
Don Alvarez wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:28 pm
Well, I suppose astrophotography is a relative term. It doesn't actually have to be good. Take a picture of the moon with your cellphone that comes out as an overexposed blob, tecnically still astrophotography.
Some truth in that. I use an undriven DSLR a lot and find more than enough to photograph. I do lots of short exposures with the Sun. Moon and planets. I also use a webcam-style imager for solar system use with a telescope.
I do not aspire to go down the long-exposure route. Not only is it too expensive for me but, at 64, I don't have enough time to master it.
I'll throw my two cents into this discussion. I've spent a lot on my photography over the years. I have four principles that I go by.
1. Start a slush find and count how much you have saved, not how much you have to spend. Develop a plan to regularly feed the fund.
2. Enjoy what you have, never jump to something else until you have learned all you can with what you have and find that your current equipment is holding you back.
3. Resist the urge to upgrade to the latest thing. The day after tomorrow it will be out of date.
4. When it is time to take the next step don't do it half way. Get something that you can grow into.
When it came time for me to make that jump I went for an 80ED telescope, which I have never regretted, and an Orion Sirius mount, which I have often regretted. Don't get me wrong. It is an excellent mount and has served me well. It is built like a tank and has never failed. It is great for weekend camping trips at my dark sky site. I just didn't realize at the time that one day I would want to place more weight on it. If I had it to do over, I would have dumped all of my money into the mount and used my longest camera lens until I could afford the refractor.
Rob Telescopes: 50mm refractor, ED80 triplet, 90mm makcass, 10" dob, 8"SCT, 11"SCT
Mounts: Celestron CGX, Orion Sirius + several camera tripods
Cameras: Canon 6D, Canon 80D, ZWO-ASI120MC
Binoculars: 10x50, 12x60, 15x70, 25-125x80
Observatory: SkyShed POD XL3 + 8x12 warm room
AL Projects Completed: Lunar #645, Outreach #0280, Universe Sampler #93-T, Binocular Messier #871, Messier #2521, Messier Honorary #2521, Constellation Hunter Northern Skies #112, Planetary Transit Venus #1, Galileo #26, Outreach Stellar 0280, Meteor Regular #157, Solar System Telescopic #209-I, Observer Award #1
AL Projects Currently in Process: Double Stars, Comet, Lunar Evolution
Couple things, coma etc. aside, the reflector will probably give you the best image quality for the lowest amount money. (Due to aperture size and no CA) Assuming the mount can handle the newt to your "friends" satisfaction, that is probably the way to go. (Which specific newt to get is it's own discussion, yes reaching focus without modification would be nice, f/4 would be better then f/5 in situations where you are limited by tracking, such as yours.)
Most may not be thrilled with the astrophotography performance of a newt on a cheap mount, or a ED for that matter. It's as much to do with the focal lengths as it is the weight.
IMO finding a ED to give comparable quality to a good DSLR lens for comparable money would be an accomplishment. Plus they don't really make wide-field telescopes.
This kind of leads you to the direction of wide field, using a DSLR lens on your existing mount. A shorter focal length would be more forgiving of tracking and typically faster at their full apertures.
Or sell everything, buy a sweet mount, come back here broke with no glass and we can start the whole conundrum over again.
notFritzArgelander wrote: ↑Sat Oct 12, 2019 3:06 am
Your friend has an interesting dilemma. The 6" f4 is more expensive than the f5 because it's a deeper mirror curve and requires more testing to get right.
Ah! See, this I did not think of. Endless tinkering eating away at my visual time at the lens. Though, I suppose what we do is all endless tinkering, isn't it.
"The heavens themselves, the planets, and this center observe degree, priority, and place,
Insisture, course, proportion, season, form, office, and custom, in all line of order.”
notFritzArgelander wrote: ↑Sat Oct 12, 2019 3:06 am
Your friend has an interesting dilemma. The 6" f4 is more expensive than the f5 because it's a deeper mirror curve and requires more testing to get right.
Ah! See, this I did not think of. Endless tinkering eating away at my visual time at the lens. Though, I suppose what we do is all endless tinkering, isn't it.
It's true! It may be celestial tinkering but tinkering still.
Scopes: Refs: Orion ST80, SV 80EDA f7, TS 102ED f11 Newts: AWB 130mm, f5, Z12 f5; Cats: VMC110L, Intes MK66,VMC200L f9.75 EPs: KK Fujiyama Orthoscopics, 2x Vixen NPLs (40-6mm) and BCOs, Baader Mark IV zooms, TV Panoptics, Delos, Plossl 32-8mm. Mixed brand Masuyama/Astroplans Binoculars: Nikon Aculon 10x50, Celestron 15x70, Baader Maxbright. Mounts: Star Seeker IV, Vixen Porta II, Celestron CG5
SkyHiker wrote: ↑Sat Oct 12, 2019 4:27 am
On that budget I would get an iEXOS-100 mount for about $400 and a 300 mm Sigma lens for your DSLR.
No more mounts right now. I already have tripods collecting around my apartment like stray cats. I think the LX70 is sufficient for what I hope to achieve.
To tell the truth though I had not considered plopping a DSLR on the mount and just using that. I don't know why. I could use a light scope like my i80 and piggyback the camera off that and I'm even further under the mount's payload limit than with a imaging newt, and can monitor how well it is tracking visually in real time.
I've been given much to think upon. Thanks guys as always.
"The heavens themselves, the planets, and this center observe degree, priority, and place,
Insisture, course, proportion, season, form, office, and custom, in all line of order.”
SkyHiker wrote: ↑Sat Oct 12, 2019 4:27 am
On that budget I would get an iEXOS-100 mount for about $400 and a 300 mm Sigma lens for your DSLR.
No more mounts right now. I already have tripods collecting around my apartment like stray cats. I think the LX70 is sufficient for what I hope to achieve.
To tell the truth though I had not considered plopping a DSLR on the mount and just using that. I don't know why. I could use a light scope like my i80 and piggyback the camera off that and I'm even further under the mount's payload limit than with a imaging newt, and can monitor how well it is tracking visually in real time.
I've been given much to think upon. Thanks guys as always.
Your LX70 is not in your signature so please add it, does it have motors? We need to know.
I had the impression that you had no motorized mount that's what my suggestion is based on. Otherwise I'd go with the 6" astrograph and decide on the coma corrector later. For small budgets reflectors are better.
... Henk. Telescopes: GSO 12" Astrograph, "Comet Hunter" MN152, ES ED127CF, ES ED80, WO Redcat51, Z12, AT6RC, Celestron Skymaster 20x80, Mounts and tripod: Losmandy G11S with OnStep, AVX, Tiltall, Cameras: ASI2600MC, ASI2600MM, ASI120 mini, Fuji X-a1, Canon XSi, T6, ELPH 100HS, DIY: OnStep controller, Pi4b/power rig, Afocal adapter, Foldable Dob base, Az/Alt Dob setting circles, Accessories: ZWO 36 mm filter wheel, TV Paracorr 2, Baader MPCC Mk III, ES FF, SSAG, QHY OAG-M, EAF electronic focuser, Plossls, Barlows, Telrad, Laser collimators (Seben LK1, Z12, Howie Glatter), Cheshire, 2 Orion RACIs 8x50, Software: KStars-Ekos, DSS, PHD2, Nebulosity, Photo Gallery, Gimp, CHDK, Computers:Pi4b, 2x running KStars/Ekos, Toshiba Satellite 17", Website:Henk's astro images
Starts off innocent enough. "Say, I could get a better moon shot if I do this!"
"I wonder how this setup will do with an open cluster?"
"Lets try M42, that seems easy enough."
"If I buy this, I should be able to capture those galaxies."
"My camera sensor is too small. Time to upgrade!"
"My camera isn't cooled. Time to upgrade!"
"Wonder if this filter will help? I'll add that to my cart."
"I'm getting a bonus after the new year. I need an APO!"
You lose all of your hair. Your eyes grow into luminous blinking lanterns. You begin hanging around orcs, trolls, Black Riders, and other nefarious folk. You begin chasing little people around muttering under your breath about "my precious".
It ain't worth it. Run! Run for your lives!
Bryan Scopes: Apertura AD12 f/5; Celestron C6-R f/8; ES AR127 f/6.4; Stellarvue SV102T f/7; iOptron MC90 f/13.3; Orion ST80A f/5; ES ED80 f/6; Celestron Premium 80 f/11.4; Celestron C80 f/11.4; Unitron Model 142 f/16; Meade NG60 f/10 Mounts: Celestron AVX; Bresser EXOS-2; ES Twilight I; ES Twilight II; iOptron Cube-G; AZ3/wood tripod; Vixen Polaris Binoculars: Pentax PCF WP II 10×50, Bresser Corvette 10×50, Bresser Hunter 16×50 and 8×40, Garrett Gemini 12×60 LW, Gordon 10×50, Apogee 20×100
JayTee wrote: ↑Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:51 pm
In case you hadn't figured it out, the above is Bryan's autobiography.
Cheers,
JT
Actually Bryan is one of the few who makes the most of what he's got without too many upgrades and with quite good results. Kind of surprisnig really considering what a refractor pack rat he was before he got the Apo.
... Henk. Telescopes: GSO 12" Astrograph, "Comet Hunter" MN152, ES ED127CF, ES ED80, WO Redcat51, Z12, AT6RC, Celestron Skymaster 20x80, Mounts and tripod: Losmandy G11S with OnStep, AVX, Tiltall, Cameras: ASI2600MC, ASI2600MM, ASI120 mini, Fuji X-a1, Canon XSi, T6, ELPH 100HS, DIY: OnStep controller, Pi4b/power rig, Afocal adapter, Foldable Dob base, Az/Alt Dob setting circles, Accessories: ZWO 36 mm filter wheel, TV Paracorr 2, Baader MPCC Mk III, ES FF, SSAG, QHY OAG-M, EAF electronic focuser, Plossls, Barlows, Telrad, Laser collimators (Seben LK1, Z12, Howie Glatter), Cheshire, 2 Orion RACIs 8x50, Software: KStars-Ekos, DSS, PHD2, Nebulosity, Photo Gallery, Gimp, CHDK, Computers:Pi4b, 2x running KStars/Ekos, Toshiba Satellite 17", Website:Henk's astro images
No, this will be it for a long time. I haven't really proven I can get out often enough to use what I have, so I'm actually going into a reduction phase and I'm not going to spring for anything new for a couple months. But, doesn't hurt to start thinking ahead.
"The heavens themselves, the planets, and this center observe degree, priority, and place,
Insisture, course, proportion, season, form, office, and custom, in all line of order.”