AP? (Just being curious)

[turboscrew]

Just out of curiosity. if I, for some weird reason, run out of frustrations, and wish to maintain the frustration level by trying AP, what kind of gear I would need?

Does the size of the scope (300 mm / 1200 mm F/4) set requirements on the guiding (scope, camera)?
I _think_ I can get a camera to focus. At least my eyepieces require a 30 mm extension tube, except the 26 mm 2" SWAN that requires 50 mm extension tube.

I was thinking of a simple and "cheap" astro-cam (around 300€) instead of a DSLR.

[Star Dad]

Mmmm, not sure about the guiding scope. On my 203mm/1000mm/f4.9 I use an Orion spotting scope to which I attached via "cement" a small zwo asi120mm (which itself costs $300). The guide camera/scope does a very nice job for guiding. Due in part to it's fast (I think it's something like an f1.4) ability it works well with PHD2 guiding software. Knowing (I think) your weather conditions I would recommend a full color camera versus black and white - as it takes significantly more time to do LRGB photos than color ones. You could go with an ASI120MC (the color version). I'm afraid though that at 300 euros it's going to be difficult to find a decent AP color camera. Most cameras are in the $600+ range. But let me say that I used my Canon 70D for several years and got really good pictures with it. My one fear was that, because I took a lot of short exposures with it, I was wearing out the shutter/mirror mechanism and I started to see an increase in the number of bad pixels. But the good side is that it still takes terrific terrestrial photos... the compression algorithm negates the bad pixels. So if you already have a DSLR you might want to rethink using it - at least until you can afford or feel the need for a dedicated AP camera.

[SkyHiker]

A cheap astrocam implies a small sensor and a small FOV. In combination with relatively large focal length this will highlight any imperfections of your gear. So, a DSLR is a much better idea. Spend your money on a CC instead. At F/4 you'll need that eventually anyway for AP with your gear.

The most important part especially for AP is the mount, and you have a very good one. With good polar alignment you don't need a guide scope especially thanks to your high quality mount. Just take 1 minute exposures and stack a bit more. So, get, say, a Baader MPCC Mk III, and you're in business. Now, the Baader is OK but not top of the line so if you can afford a Paracorr2, that's ideal. I'm happy with mine, my OTA is essentially the same as yours.

The key is good PA, which is not easy if you set up from scratch each time. Put pavers down, mark the place where the feet go, then it will be a quick adjustment. In my experience it is very useful to have a Pi that can plate solve for alignment, if saves a lot of time and frustration. You are a programmer IIRC and a Pi2b is cheap, install astroberry and control it from your tablet.

[turboscrew]

Mmmm, not sure about the guiding scope. On my 203mm/1000mm/f4.9 I use an Orion spotting scope to which I attached via "cement" a small zwo asi120mm (which itself costs $300). The guide camera/scope does a very nice job for guiding. Due in part to it's fast (I think it's something like an f1.4) ability it works well with PHD2 guiding software. Knowing (I think) your weather conditions I would recommend a full color camera versus black and white - as it takes significantly more time to do LRGB photos than color ones. You could go with an ASI120MC (the color version). I'm afraid though that at 300 euros it's going to be difficult to find a decent AP color camera. Most cameras are in the $600+ range. But let me say that I used my Canon 70D for several years and got really good pictures with it. My one fear was that, because I took a lot of short exposures with it, I was wearing out the shutter/mirror mechanism and I started to see an increase in the number of bad pixels. But the good side is that it still takes terrific terrestrial photos... the compression algorithm negates the bad pixels. So if you already have a DSLR you might want to rethink using it - at least until you can afford or feel the need for a dedicated AP camera.

I do have an old camera: Ricoh KR5, but I don't think it's suitable. It uses actual film, the mirror can't be locked and it has K-bayonet.

ASI 120 MC-S color and ASI 120 MM mini mono both seem to cost 179€.
ASI 120 MM-S mono 215€ and ASI 462 MC color 335€.

[turboscrew]

A cheap astrocam implies a small sensor and a small FOV. In combination with relatively large focal length this will highlight any imperfections of your gear. So, a DSLR is a much better idea. Spend your money on a CC instead. At F/4 you'll need that eventually anyway for AP with your gear.

The most important part especially for AP is the mount, and you have a very good one. With good polar alignment you don't need a guide scope especially thanks to your high quality mount. Just take 1 minute exposures and stack a bit more. So, get, say, a Baader MPCC Mk III, and you're in business. Now, the Baader is OK but not top of the line so if you can afford a Paracorr2, that's ideal. I'm happy with mine, my OTA is essentially the same as yours.

The key is good PA, which is not easy if you set up from scratch each time. Put pavers down, mark the place where the feet go, then it will be a quick adjustment. In my experience it is very useful to have a Pi that can plate solve for alignment, if saves a lot of time and frustration. You are a programmer IIRC and a Pi2b is cheap, install astroberry and control it from your tablet.

CC? If you mean coma corrector, I think my 2" ES HR should do.
What's IIRC? I do have a Pi2B, and it's not in any use now. I don't have any tablets, but I have some old laptops.
One is running Astronomy Linux.

[SkyHiker]

A cheap astrocam implies a small sensor and a small FOV. In combination with relatively large focal length this will highlight any imperfections of your gear. So, a DSLR is a much better idea. Spend your money on a CC instead. At F/4 you'll need that eventually anyway for AP with your gear.

The most important part especially for AP is the mount, and you have a very good one. With good polar alignment you don't need a guide scope especially thanks to your high quality mount. Just take 1 minute exposures and stack a bit more. So, get, say, a Baader MPCC Mk III, and you're in business. Now, the Baader is OK but not top of the line so if you can afford a Paracorr2, that's ideal. I'm happy with mine, my OTA is essentially the same as yours.

The key is good PA, which is not easy if you set up from scratch each time. Put pavers down, mark the place where the feet go, then it will be a quick adjustment. In my experience it is very useful to have a Pi that can plate solve for alignment, if saves a lot of time and frustration. You are a programmer IIRC and a Pi2b is cheap, install astroberry and control it from your tablet.

CC? If you mean coma corrector, I think my 2" ES HR should do.
What's IIRC? I do have a Pi2B, and it's not in any use now. I don't have any tablets, but I have some old laptops.
One is running Astronomy Linux.

Yes I mean Coma Corrector with CC. I didn't realize you had a 2" ES already, I should have looked.

IIRC = If I Remember Correctly. A Pi2B is a great computer to have locally by your gear that you can remote log into for controlling your scope. It is light weight and uses very little power. Alternatively you can get a NUC but a Pi is more nimble and runs KStars/Ekos, which is a great control program. An old laptop should work too but it uses more power and personally I'm not comfortable with leaving a laptop outside while I go inside, which is typically what one does with AP. I don't know Astronomy Linux but I presume astroberry on the Pi would cover anything it has.

About the DSLR, one more thing that makes it useful is that it is easy to use and stores all data locally on a SanDisk. Zero pain in having to use a computer to attach to store the images, and retrieving the images from there. Just hook up a remote timer. DSLRs are very cheap these days. To select one, go to dpreview.com and use the studio tool to compare. Set it to low light. Based on that I selected the Fuji X-a1. If you value remote control, get a Canon or Nikon. You need the body only. There is a great second hand market because people keep their expensive glass and upgrade the body to the next model.

Now, for plate solving you do need a controllable camera. If you can align your guide scope with the FOV you can use your autoguider just fine. I believe that a controllable DSLR will work for that as well - the Fuji that I have is not controllable but IIIRC I got my 450D working for it. Alternatively you can wait with computerizing and simply use your CEM120. After a while you may realize that alignment takes up more time than you want, and that plate solving would help. So a Canon DSLR or a guide scope with a simple B&W astro camera like a ZWO ASI20 or QHY5 would do.

[turboscrew]

BTW, my polar alignment procedure now is:
1) Put the Tri-pier on the 3 tiles I put on the ground, such that a center marking (a small can buried upside down) is in the middle of the "center hole" of the Tri-pier.
2) Line up the Tri-pier with the north-south line (that I marked some time ago - from a pipe inb my stai railing to a small plate on the wall of my shed/garage/sauna building).
3) Level the Tri-pier.
4) Put on the mount, counterweights and the telescope. Re-level if needed.
5) Set the alt to 61° 28'
6) Using the finder, find the Polaris into view using alt and az adjustments.
7) Check the Polaris direction from the pole.
8) Using the 26 mm 70° eyepiece, adjust the alt and az such that the Polaris is at the edge of the FOV in the right direction. (The radius of the TFOV of the eyepiece is about 80" bigger that the radius of the Polaris' "orbit" around the pole.)

I think it should be easy to align further from there with plate solving.

If there was a 26 mm with 68° AFOV, the "radial error" would be only 2.8".

[turboscrew]

A cheap astrocam implies a small sensor and a small FOV. In combination with relatively large focal length this will highlight any imperfections of your gear. So, a DSLR is a much better idea. Spend your money on a CC instead. At F/4 you'll need that eventually anyway for AP with your gear.

The most important part especially for AP is the mount, and you have a very good one. With good polar alignment you don't need a guide scope especially thanks to your high quality mount. Just take 1 minute exposures and stack a bit more. So, get, say, a Baader MPCC Mk III, and you're in business. Now, the Baader is OK but not top of the line so if you can afford a Paracorr2, that's ideal. I'm happy with mine, my OTA is essentially the same as yours.

The key is good PA, which is not easy if you set up from scratch each time. Put pavers down, mark the place where the feet go, then it will be a quick adjustment. In my experience it is very useful to have a Pi that can plate solve for alignment, if saves a lot of time and frustration. You are a programmer IIRC and a Pi2b is cheap, install astroberry and control it from your tablet.

CC? If you mean coma corrector, I think my 2" ES HR should do.
What's IIRC? I do have a Pi2B, and it's not in any use now. I don't have any tablets, but I have some old laptops.
One is running Astronomy Linux.

Yes I mean Coma Corrector with CC. I didn't realize you had a 2" ES already, I should have looked.

IIRC = If I Remember Correctly. A Pi2B is a great computer to have locally by your gear that you can remote log into for controlling your scope. It is light weight and uses very little power. Alternatively you can get a NUC but a Pi is more nimble and runs KStars/Ekos, which is a great control program. An old laptop should work too but it uses more power and personally I'm not comfortable with leaving a laptop outside while I go inside, which is typically what one does with AP. I don't know Astronomy Linux but I presume astroberry on the Pi would cover anything it has.

About the DSLR, one more thing that makes it useful is that it is easy to use and stores all data locally on a SanDisk. Zero pain in having to use a computer to attach to store the images, and retrieving the images from there. Just hook up a remote timer. DSLRs are very cheap these days. To select one, go to dpreview.com and use the studio tool to compare. Set it to low light. Based on that I selected the Fuji X-a1. If you value remote control, get a Canon or Nikon. You need the body only. There is a great second hand market because people keep their expensive glass and upgrade the body to the next model.

Now, for plate solving you do need a controllable camera. If you can align your guide scope with the FOV you can use your autoguider just fine. I believe that a controllable DSLR will work for that as well - the Fuji that I have is not controllable but IIIRC I got my 450D working for it. Alternatively you can wait with computerizing and simply use your CEM120. After a while you may realize that alignment takes up more time than you want, and that plate solving would help. So a Canon DSLR or a guide scope with a simple B&W astro camera like a ZWO ASI20 or QHY5 would do.

You mean something like this?
https://www.astroshop.eu/astronomical-c ... no/p,59338
What kind of guide scope is needed? Any requirements for its aperture and/or focal length?

And would this do for the first actual camera?
https://www.astroshop.eu/astronomical-c ... or/p,68048
Or should I aim to something like this?
https://www.astroshop.eu/astronomical-c ... or/p,56536

I think the first thing is the actual camera. Just shorter exposures using the mount's own tracking?

[SkyHiker]

CC? If you mean coma corrector, I think my 2" ES HR should do.
What's IIRC? I do have a Pi2B, and it's not in any use now. I don't have any tablets, but I have some old laptops.
One is running Astronomy Linux.

Yes I mean Coma Corrector with CC. I didn't realize you had a 2" ES already, I should have looked.

IIRC = If I Remember Correctly. A Pi2B is a great computer to have locally by your gear that you can remote log into for controlling your scope. It is light weight and uses very little power. Alternatively you can get a NUC but a Pi is more nimble and runs KStars/Ekos, which is a great control program. An old laptop should work too but it uses more power and personally I'm not comfortable with leaving a laptop outside while I go inside, which is typically what one does with AP. I don't know Astronomy Linux but I presume astroberry on the Pi would cover anything it has.

About the DSLR, one more thing that makes it useful is that it is easy to use and stores all data locally on a SanDisk. Zero pain in having to use a computer to attach to store the images, and retrieving the images from there. Just hook up a remote timer. DSLRs are very cheap these days. To select one, go to dpreview.com and use the studio tool to compare. Set it to low light. Based on that I selected the Fuji X-a1. If you value remote control, get a Canon or Nikon. You need the body only. There is a great second hand market because people keep their expensive glass and upgrade the body to the next model.

Now, for plate solving you do need a controllable camera. If you can align your guide scope with the FOV you can use your autoguider just fine. I believe that a controllable DSLR will work for that as well - the Fuji that I have is not controllable but IIIRC I got my 450D working for it. Alternatively you can wait with computerizing and simply use your CEM120. After a while you may realize that alignment takes up more time than you want, and that plate solving would help. So a Canon DSLR or a guide scope with a simple B&W astro camera like a ZWO ASI20 or QHY5 would do.

You mean something like this?
https://www.astroshop.eu/astronomical-c ... no/p,59338
What kind of guide scope is needed? Any requirements for its aperture and/or focal length?

And would this do for the first actual camera?
https://www.astroshop.eu/astronomical-c ... or/p,68048
Or should I aim to something like this?
https://www.astroshop.eu/astronomical-c ... or/p,56536

I think the first thing is the actual camera. Just shorter exposures using the mount's own tracking?

I just got the ASI120 mini myself, the exact same one that you pointed out in your first link. I have yet to try it at night, tonight was my first try, but I think it will be good. The advantage of getting the mini is that if you ever decide to get an OAG, it will give you more space to maneuver around - I'm not sure but for OAG, the smaller the better I have found.

A guide scope can be quite simple, maybe you can adapt a viewfinder for it if you don't use it anymore. No high quality required. Some people claim that it is best to have the guide scope slightly defocused. I don't subscribe to that anymore but it will have to be a bit adjustable, like a helical focuser. It's a one time thing.

But if you have to buy one why not get an OAG. I got a medium sized QHY OAG, they are not that expensive. Disclaimer: I have not tried it! Hopefully tonight. With the small sensor size, you should have plenty of space to pick some photons away without being in the FOV of the camera.

The 462 with a 6.5 mm diagonal is probably too small - I would choose a DSLR over it myself. However the 183MC looks not too bad. It does not have cooling but in Finland that may be OK. I don't know those cameras, maybe someone else can chime in.

Soon I can tell you more about how well this works because like you (r plan), I have a 12" F/4 Newt with a CC, an OAG with a 120 mini, and a ZWO camera). Right now I'm building a rig to put my Pi close to where it needs to be to power the electronic focuser, 120 mini, filter wheel and camera. A powered hub with two 12-5 V converter seem to work well so I can use it with a 12 V power supply from a cigarette lighter socket (from a battery or AC converter). Tuesday will be the first clear night to try it.

[turboscrew]

Yes I mean Coma Corrector with CC. I didn't realize you had a 2" ES already, I should have looked.

IIRC = If I Remember Correctly. A Pi2B is a great computer to have locally by your gear that you can remote log into for controlling your scope. It is light weight and uses very little power. Alternatively you can get a NUC but a Pi is more nimble and runs KStars/Ekos, which is a great control program. An old laptop should work too but it uses more power and personally I'm not comfortable with leaving a laptop outside while I go inside, which is typically what one does with AP. I don't know Astronomy Linux but I presume astroberry on the Pi would cover anything it has.

About the DSLR, one more thing that makes it useful is that it is easy to use and stores all data locally on a SanDisk. Zero pain in having to use a computer to attach to store the images, and retrieving the images from there. Just hook up a remote timer. DSLRs are very cheap these days. To select one, go to dpreview.com and use the studio tool to compare. Set it to low light. Based on that I selected the Fuji X-a1. If you value remote control, get a Canon or Nikon. You need the body only. There is a great second hand market because people keep their expensive glass and upgrade the body to the next model.

Now, for plate solving you do need a controllable camera. If you can align your guide scope with the FOV you can use your autoguider just fine. I believe that a controllable DSLR will work for that as well - the Fuji that I have is not controllable but IIIRC I got my 450D working for it. Alternatively you can wait with computerizing and simply use your CEM120. After a while you may realize that alignment takes up more time than you want, and that plate solving would help. So a Canon DSLR or a guide scope with a simple B&W astro camera like a ZWO ASI20 or QHY5 would do.

You mean something like this?
https://www.astroshop.eu/astronomical-c ... no/p,59338
What kind of guide scope is needed? Any requirements for its aperture and/or focal length?

And would this do for the first actual camera?
https://www.astroshop.eu/astronomical-c ... or/p,68048
Or should I aim to something like this?
https://www.astroshop.eu/astronomical-c ... or/p,56536

I think the first thing is the actual camera. Just shorter exposures using the mount's own tracking?

I just got the ASI120 mini myself, the exact same one that you pointed out in your first link. I have yet to try it at night, tonight was my first try, but I think it will be good. The advantage of getting the mini is that if you ever decide to get an OAG, it will give you more space to maneuver around - I'm not sure but for OAG, the smaller the better I have found.

A guide scope can be quite simple, maybe you can adapt a viewfinder for it if you don't use it anymore. No high quality required. Some people claim that it is best to have the guide scope slightly defocused. I don't subscribe to that anymore but it will have to be a bit adjustable, like a helical focuser. It's a one time thing.

But if you have to buy one why not get an OAG. I got a medium sized QHY OAG, they are not that expensive. Disclaimer: I have not tried it! Hopefully tonight. With the small sensor size, you should have plenty of space to pick some photons away without being in the FOV of the camera.

The 462 with a 6.5 mm diagonal is probably too small - I would choose a DSLR over it myself. However the 183MC looks not too bad. It does not have cooling but in Finland that may be OK. I don't know those cameras, maybe someone else can chime in.

Soon I can tell you more about how well this works because like you (r plan), I have a 12" F/4 Newt with a CC, an OAG with a 120 mini, and a ZWO camera). Right now I'm building a rig to put my Pi close to where it needs to be to power the electronic focuser, 120 mini, filter wheel and camera. A powered hub with two 12-5 V converter seem to work well so I can use it with a 12 V power supply from a cigarette lighter socket (from a battery or AC converter). Tuesday will be the first clear night to try it.

I'm eager to hear how it went.

[ARock]

The image scale (pixel scale) of your imaging setup is good thing to know and understand. It ties your mount tracking accuracy (polar alignment accuracy + periodic error) to your exposure time for your scope/camera combo.

And here is an article with some guidance on guide scopes
https://raleighastro.org/blog/2020/11/2 ... xel-scale/

If I was in your shoes, I would use a ST80 and a used DSLR to start in AP. Later on the ST80 could be used as a guide scope.

[turboscrew]

I'd like to know the image size, but anyway, astronomy tools / CCD suitability calculator gives "thumbs up" for ZWO ASI385 MC, and even ZWO ASI224 MC. Would the latter be of any good? Or maybe ZWO ASI 462 MC color, which also has autoguider connection (If I end up moving forward and upgrade the camera and get a guide scope)?

And I think guide scope would not be that bad. Maybe it weights just enough so, that I can get rid of the old sneaker tied as a counterweight for the finder scope (DEC axis balance).
(Hmm, didn't find a stupid smile in the emoticon set.)

[JayTee]

Did you read this article?

viewtopic.php?f=94&t=10954

Cheers,
JT

[SkyHiker]

I'd like to know the image size, but anyway, astronomy tools / CCD suitability calculator gives "thumbs up" for ZWO ASI385 MC, and even ZWO ASI224 MC. Would the latter be of any good? Or maybe ZWO ASI 462 MC color, which also has autoguider connection (If I end up moving forward and upgrade the camera and get a guide scope)?

And I think guide scope would not be that bad. Maybe it weights just enough so, that I can get rid of the old sneaker tied as a counterweight for the finder scope (DEC axis balance).
(Hmm, didn't find a stupid smile in the emoticon set.)

Personally I would not go half way but either get a cheap DSLR body off EBay or a good astro camera that will last. The ASI533MC Pro gets good reviews, I know 2 people who have them and enjoy it a lot.

I also know someone who has an ATIK camera. He stacks 10 sec images live and claims that it's good enough for him to make an autoguider unnecessary. He does that with proprietary ATIK software. ZWO has ASI Studio that also has a live stacking feature that sounds similar. I haven't tried it yet. You need Windows for that I think, the Linux support is not that great. Sharpcap also has live stacking, again Windows only. I wish I could try something like that on my Pi.

Personally I think, if the read noise of modern cameras becomes negligible, this live stacking feature indeed has the potential of making guide cameras and stacking afterwards obsolete.

So I would prioritize a good camera over a guide scope and autoguider. It supports plate solving, which will make your setup quicker and easier. For sure, if your polar alignment is good and your PE is not too bad you can use 1 minute exposures and get decent results. So don't worry too much about autoguiding, you can always add that later. Practicing good PA is worth the trouble.

[turboscrew]

Did you read this article?

viewtopic.php?f=94&t=10954

Cheers,
JT

Oh, didn't realize there is such an article. I will read.

[turboscrew]

I think I don't like to get a new set of gear to fail with. I think I'll try failing with (mostly) my current gear first.

I guess I'll start with a camera, short exposures and mount-only tracking.
Next step (if there'll be one) is to add autoguiding.
From that on, I don't know yet.

[Juno16]

Sounds like a great way to start off TS, basic.

There are so many things to learn in AP, starting basic will give you a chance to work through everything one by one. Adding things (like guiding) one at a time will keep the frustration low and the rewards high.
If you do go with a used dslr, be sure to check compatibility with your chosen acquisition software. There are some good, but basic dslr’s (like my Nikon D3300) that aren’t supported by a SDK (software development kit) and usually not supported by acquisition software.

Good luck and have fun! AP is a very rewarding hobby that can really make you feel good. Even at basic levels!

[mikemarotta]

Did you read this article?

I just did. Thanks!
Our local club arranged for a tutorial for $250 per person for three sessions. One class in theory, one night of shooting, one class of image processing. It was the same price for an observer with no equipment (no camera, anyway). So, I signed up just to learn. The classes run 27 April, then May 7-8.

Your article was very helpful as background information for framing and context. No one ever said to use the Video feature of my cellphone. That still requires the "stacking" software for image processing, does it not?

Mike M.

PS I liked your Saturn.

[turboscrew]

Did you read this article?

viewtopic.php?f=94&t=10954

Cheers,
JT

Oh, didn't realize there is such an article. I will read.

Yep, did read it. Thanks.

[Star Dad]

Yeah, Turbo - I used mount only guiding for a year or two before I bought a guiding camera. My mount is capable of 1 minute images without a guiding camera. I usually had to throw out 10% of the images due to a wobble in the mount's worm gear. The wobble is still there, but with guiding camera and software I don't have to throw out any images anymore because of the wobble. Mostly aircraft/satellites and occasionally a cloud that interferes with guiding.