Thoughts on Celestron Ultima 18mm vs Baader Classic Ortho 18mm?

Discuss telescope eyepieces.
Post Reply
User avatar
MistrBadgr United States of America
Orion Spur Ambassador
Articles: 0
Offline
Posts: 748
Joined: Sat May 11, 2019 9:27 pm
4
Location: Broken Arrow, Okla, USA
Status:
Offline

TSS Awards Badges

Thoughts on Celestron Ultima 18mm vs Baader Classic Ortho 18mm?

#1

Post by MistrBadgr »


The Celestron Ultima eyepieces, if I understand things correctly, are a copy of a Massuyama designed Astroplan. The Astroplan originally came from Zeiss and was derived from the Erfle design to perform like an Orthoscopic, but with a wider field of view of maybe 50 degrees instead of the middle 40s of the Orthos.

The Baader Classic Orthoscopic is a wider field ortho, based on information from Zeiss research, that has a 50 degree field.

Understanding that the two eyepieces have different numbers and configurations of elements, with most likely different types of glass, I expect them to have different focal points, but wonder how they differ in behavior to the human eye, given that the goal of their designs are basically the same and the research came from the same source.

I am thinking specifically of the Celestron Ultima 18mm and the Baader Classic Ortho 18mm. One is rare and the other is common.

Any thoughts?
Bill Steen
Many small scopes, plus a Lightbridge 12, LX 70-8R,6R,6M
Many eyepieces, just not really expensive ones.
User avatar
Lady Fraktor Slovakia
Co-Administrator
Co-Administrator
Articles: 0
Offline
Posts: 9860
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:14 pm
4
Location: Slovakia
Status:
Offline

Re: Thoughts on Celestron Ultima 18mm vs Baader Classic Ortho 18mm?

#2

Post by Lady Fraktor »


If they are Masuyama clones then they are a 2-1-2 configuration.
Anything different than that is not a pseudo Masuyama
Both 18mm eyepieces are 2-2 design (Plossl) and not pseudos (if I recall correctly). Orthoscopic is just a term meaning free of aberrations, not a actual design like Masuyama, Plossl or Abbe.
I may be wrong with Celestron, I will have to check :)

Bigzmey did a 18mm comparison a while ago, perhaps ask him?
See Far Sticks: Antares Elita 103/1575, AOM FLT 105/1000, Bresser BV 127/1200, Nočný stopár 152/1200, Vyrobené doma 70/700, Stellarvue NHNG DX 80/552, TAL RS100/1000, Vixen SD115s/885
EQ: TAL MT-1, Vixen SXP, AXJ, AXD
Az/Alt: AYO Digi II/ Argo Navis, Stellarvue M2C/ Argo Navis
Tripods: Berlebach Planet (2), Uni 28 Astro, Report 372, TAL factory maple, Vixen ASG-CB90, Vixen AXD-TR102
Diagonals: Astro-Physics, Baader Amici, Baader Herschel, iStar Blue, Stellarvue DX, Takahashi prism, TAL, Vixen flip mirror
Eyepieces: Antares to Zeiss
The only culture I have is from yogurt
My day was going well until... people
Image
User avatar
Lady Fraktor Slovakia
Co-Administrator
Co-Administrator
Articles: 0
Offline
Posts: 9860
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:14 pm
4
Location: Slovakia
Status:
Offline

Re: Thoughts on Celestron Ultima 18mm vs Baader Classic Ortho 18mm?

#3

Post by Lady Fraktor »


From looking around the Celestron is a 5 element so possibly a pseudo Masuyama but the Baader is a standard 2-2 Plossl/ Symmetrical design.

Personally I love my pseudos so I am biased towards them. :)
See Far Sticks: Antares Elita 103/1575, AOM FLT 105/1000, Bresser BV 127/1200, Nočný stopár 152/1200, Vyrobené doma 70/700, Stellarvue NHNG DX 80/552, TAL RS100/1000, Vixen SD115s/885
EQ: TAL MT-1, Vixen SXP, AXJ, AXD
Az/Alt: AYO Digi II/ Argo Navis, Stellarvue M2C/ Argo Navis
Tripods: Berlebach Planet (2), Uni 28 Astro, Report 372, TAL factory maple, Vixen ASG-CB90, Vixen AXD-TR102
Diagonals: Astro-Physics, Baader Amici, Baader Herschel, iStar Blue, Stellarvue DX, Takahashi prism, TAL, Vixen flip mirror
Eyepieces: Antares to Zeiss
The only culture I have is from yogurt
My day was going well until... people
Image
User avatar
Bigzmey United States of America
Moderator
Moderator
Articles: 8
Online
Posts: 7548
Joined: Sat May 11, 2019 7:55 pm
4
Location: San Diego, CA USA
Status:
Online

TSS Awards Badges

Re: Thoughts on Celestron Ultima 18mm vs Baader Classic Ortho 18mm?

#4

Post by Bigzmey »


Never had a chance to look through pseudo Masuyama. From what I read they should be good performers. However, form my hands on experience BCOs are great EPs. After observing with them for a few years, they are my gold standard I compare other EPs with and have now two sets to use in BVs.

Here is the thing though. One good EP is good, more even better! :) This is why I have Old TV smothie Plossl 17mm, BCO 18mm, Pentax XW 20mm and Vixen SLV 20mm. :D
Scopes: Stellarvue: SV102ED; Celestron: 9.25" EdgeHD, 8" SCT, 150ST, Onyx 80ED; iOptron: Hankmeister 6" Mak; SW: 7" Mak; Meade: 80ST.
Mounts: SW: SkyTee2, AzGTi; iOptron: AZMP; ES: Twilight I; Bresser: EXOS2; UA: MicroStar.
Binos: APM: 100-90 APO; Canon: IS 15x50; Orion: Binoviewer, LG II 15x70, WV 10x50, Nikon: AE 16x50, 10x50, 8x40.
EPs: Pentax: XWs & XFs; TeleVue: Delites, Panoptic & Plossls; ES: 68, 62; Vixen: SLVs; Baader: BCOs, Aspherics, Mark IV.
Diagonals: Baader: BBHS mirror, Zeiss Spec T2 prism, Clicklock dielectric; TeleVue: Evebrite dielectric; AltairAstro: 2" prism.
Filters: Lumicon: DeepSky, UHC, OIII, H-beta; Baader: Moon & SkyGlow, Contrast Booster, UHC-S, 6-color set; Astronomik: UHC.

Observing: DSOs: 3106 (Completed: Messier, Herschel 1, 2, 3. In progress: H2,500: 2180, S110: 77). Doubles: 2382, Comets: 34, Asteroids: 255
User avatar
SpyderwerX
Jupiter Ambassador
Articles: 0
Offline
Posts: 246
Joined: Sat May 11, 2019 8:11 pm
4
Location: upstate SC
Status:
Offline

Re: Thoughts on Celestron Ultima 18mm vs Baader Classic Ortho 18mm?

#5

Post by SpyderwerX »


A little insight into the Ultima line. Note post #2 where Don lists the versions:
https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/4524 ... on-ultima/

And some older related material:
https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/4988 ... ntry649359
~Frankie~ My mind: Always on...Slightly off. :?
Celestron CPC1100 SCT....Celestron Evolution 8 SCT...TeleVue-85 apo...SkyWatcher ST150 achro..ST102 achro..ST80 achro.
Celestron AVX...Orion Atlas EQ-G...SkyTee-2...Twilight-1.
Baader BBHS prism and mirror diagonals + Vernonscope quartz 1.25"
EPs: TeleVue oldie (NJ) & modern Plossls, Widefields, and Naglers + 3-6 zoom & Brandons 6-32.
Astronomik, Lumicon & Baader filters..
User avatar
notFritzArgelander
In Memory
In Memory
Articles: 0
Offline
Posts: 14925
Joined: Fri May 10, 2019 4:13 pm
4
Location: Idaho US
Status:
Offline

TSS Awards Badges

Re: Thoughts on Celestron Ultima 18mm vs Baader Classic Ortho 18mm?

#6

Post by notFritzArgelander »


Lady Fraktor wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 9:23 pm From looking around the Celestron is a 5 element so possibly a pseudo Masuyama but the Baader is a standard 2-2 Plossl/ Symmetrical design.

Personally I love my pseudos so I am biased towards them. :)
According to a review by @WilliamPaolini only the 32mm BCO is a 2-2 Plössl heritage design and the other BCOs are 3-1 Abbe based.

https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/3822 ... try4893450

I tend to agree with BillP on this but I could always dissect my 18mm to make sure. ;)
Scopes: Refs: Orion ST80, SV 80EDA f7, TS 102ED f11 Newts: AWB 130mm, f5, Z12 f5; Cats: VMC110L, Intes MK66,VMC200L f9.75 EPs: KK Fujiyama Orthoscopics, 2x Vixen NPLs (40-6mm) and BCOs, Baader Mark IV zooms, TV Panoptics, Delos, Plossl 32-8mm. Mixed brand Masuyama/Astroplans Binoculars: Nikon Aculon 10x50, Celestron 15x70, Baader Maxbright. Mounts: Star Seeker IV, Vixen Porta II, Celestron CG5
User avatar
Lady Fraktor Slovakia
Co-Administrator
Co-Administrator
Articles: 0
Offline
Posts: 9860
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:14 pm
4
Location: Slovakia
Status:
Offline

Re: Thoughts on Celestron Ultima 18mm vs Baader Classic Ortho 18mm?

#7

Post by Lady Fraktor »


That is strange as Baader calls them Plossl.
https://www.baader-planetarium.com/en/c ... t-mc).html

Either way they work well :D
See Far Sticks: Antares Elita 103/1575, AOM FLT 105/1000, Bresser BV 127/1200, Nočný stopár 152/1200, Vyrobené doma 70/700, Stellarvue NHNG DX 80/552, TAL RS100/1000, Vixen SD115s/885
EQ: TAL MT-1, Vixen SXP, AXJ, AXD
Az/Alt: AYO Digi II/ Argo Navis, Stellarvue M2C/ Argo Navis
Tripods: Berlebach Planet (2), Uni 28 Astro, Report 372, TAL factory maple, Vixen ASG-CB90, Vixen AXD-TR102
Diagonals: Astro-Physics, Baader Amici, Baader Herschel, iStar Blue, Stellarvue DX, Takahashi prism, TAL, Vixen flip mirror
Eyepieces: Antares to Zeiss
The only culture I have is from yogurt
My day was going well until... people
Image
User avatar
notFritzArgelander
In Memory
In Memory
Articles: 0
Offline
Posts: 14925
Joined: Fri May 10, 2019 4:13 pm
4
Location: Idaho US
Status:
Offline

TSS Awards Badges

Re: Thoughts on Celestron Ultima 18mm vs Baader Classic Ortho 18mm?

#8

Post by notFritzArgelander »


Lady Fraktor wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 3:48 am That is strange as Baader calls them Plossl.
https://www.baader-planetarium.com/en/c ... t-mc).html

Either way they work well :D
Agreed that they work well and are just about the best bang per unit of currency out there! :) But on the page you link there is the ambiguous:
Baader Classic Ortho/Plössl (Q-Turret) 1¼" Eyepieces
which is clarified(?) further
The lens assembly consists of a triplet-element and one plano-convex eye lens, so there are only four glass-air-surfaces. The interior has been blackened for a very good suppression of stray light. Of course, the hard anodised barrel has got a filter thread.
So a 3-1 design.
Technical data of the Baader Classic (Q-Turret) eyepieces

Focal length (mm) Optical design Barrel Lens elements / groups Apparent field of view Parfocal EyeRelief
(mm) Field stop (mm) Height (mm) Diameter Weight
6 Classic Ortho 1¼" 4 / 2 52° yes 5 5 34,2 34,8 37g
10 Classic Ortho 1¼" 4 / 2 52° yes 8 8,7 41,12 34,8 48g
18 Classic Ortho 1¼" 4 / 2 52° yes 14,67 16,8 54,46 34,8 81g
32 Classic Plössl 1¼" 4 / 2 50° yes 21 26 78,8 34,8 94g
So they are using "Classic Ortho" to mean Abbe and "Classic Plössl" to mean Plössl. Sorry, the formatting of the specification table isn't getting preserved. I recommend the link.
Scopes: Refs: Orion ST80, SV 80EDA f7, TS 102ED f11 Newts: AWB 130mm, f5, Z12 f5; Cats: VMC110L, Intes MK66,VMC200L f9.75 EPs: KK Fujiyama Orthoscopics, 2x Vixen NPLs (40-6mm) and BCOs, Baader Mark IV zooms, TV Panoptics, Delos, Plossl 32-8mm. Mixed brand Masuyama/Astroplans Binoculars: Nikon Aculon 10x50, Celestron 15x70, Baader Maxbright. Mounts: Star Seeker IV, Vixen Porta II, Celestron CG5
User avatar
Lady Fraktor Slovakia
Co-Administrator
Co-Administrator
Articles: 0
Offline
Posts: 9860
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:14 pm
4
Location: Slovakia
Status:
Offline

Re: Thoughts on Celestron Ultima 18mm vs Baader Classic Ortho 18mm?

#9

Post by Lady Fraktor »


I plead lack of caffeine! :lol:
See Far Sticks: Antares Elita 103/1575, AOM FLT 105/1000, Bresser BV 127/1200, Nočný stopár 152/1200, Vyrobené doma 70/700, Stellarvue NHNG DX 80/552, TAL RS100/1000, Vixen SD115s/885
EQ: TAL MT-1, Vixen SXP, AXJ, AXD
Az/Alt: AYO Digi II/ Argo Navis, Stellarvue M2C/ Argo Navis
Tripods: Berlebach Planet (2), Uni 28 Astro, Report 372, TAL factory maple, Vixen ASG-CB90, Vixen AXD-TR102
Diagonals: Astro-Physics, Baader Amici, Baader Herschel, iStar Blue, Stellarvue DX, Takahashi prism, TAL, Vixen flip mirror
Eyepieces: Antares to Zeiss
The only culture I have is from yogurt
My day was going well until... people
Image
User avatar
notFritzArgelander
In Memory
In Memory
Articles: 0
Offline
Posts: 14925
Joined: Fri May 10, 2019 4:13 pm
4
Location: Idaho US
Status:
Offline

TSS Awards Badges

Re: Thoughts on Celestron Ultima 18mm vs Baader Classic Ortho 18mm?

#10

Post by notFritzArgelander »


Lady Fraktor wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 4:07 am I plead lack of caffeine! :lol:
I've often pleaded that as well. Completely understandable!
Scopes: Refs: Orion ST80, SV 80EDA f7, TS 102ED f11 Newts: AWB 130mm, f5, Z12 f5; Cats: VMC110L, Intes MK66,VMC200L f9.75 EPs: KK Fujiyama Orthoscopics, 2x Vixen NPLs (40-6mm) and BCOs, Baader Mark IV zooms, TV Panoptics, Delos, Plossl 32-8mm. Mixed brand Masuyama/Astroplans Binoculars: Nikon Aculon 10x50, Celestron 15x70, Baader Maxbright. Mounts: Star Seeker IV, Vixen Porta II, Celestron CG5
User avatar
MistrBadgr United States of America
Orion Spur Ambassador
Articles: 0
Offline
Posts: 748
Joined: Sat May 11, 2019 9:27 pm
4
Location: Broken Arrow, Okla, USA
Status:
Offline

TSS Awards Badges

Re: Thoughts on Celestron Ultima 18mm vs Baader Classic Ortho 18mm?

#11

Post by MistrBadgr »


I will restate my question with different words. Assume I have a Celestron Ultima 18mm and a Baader Classic Ortho to compare. The Ultima was derived from an Erfle, sacrificing AFOV and concentrating on the quality of the remaining area to get an orthoscopic view. The Baader Classic Ortho was adapted in unknown ways (to me) from an Abbe to arrive at a wider field of view. Both have a 50ish field of view. The Ultima has an extra lens to manipulate and the Japanese passion for perfection going for it. The Baader has time, improved technology, an two less air/glass surfaces going for it. There may be other advantages or disadvantages with each.

The Question: If I were to look through both on the same high quality refractor, what differences in the view do you think I would see? :)
Bill Steen
Many small scopes, plus a Lightbridge 12, LX 70-8R,6R,6M
Many eyepieces, just not really expensive ones.
User avatar
Lady Fraktor Slovakia
Co-Administrator
Co-Administrator
Articles: 0
Offline
Posts: 9860
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:14 pm
4
Location: Slovakia
Status:
Offline

Re: Thoughts on Celestron Ultima 18mm vs Baader Classic Ortho 18mm?

#12

Post by Lady Fraktor »


Define in the view :lol:

Both are good eyepieces, differences would be more subtle.
Possibly a slight difference in colour rendition from coatings, light scatter though this should be minimal with these eyepieces.
A lot depends on the telescope. A Masuyama is designed for f/7 and longer though using one in a shorter telescope can start showing some aberrations along the FOV edge, the Abbe would be good for f/5-6.

Either one would work well :)
See Far Sticks: Antares Elita 103/1575, AOM FLT 105/1000, Bresser BV 127/1200, Nočný stopár 152/1200, Vyrobené doma 70/700, Stellarvue NHNG DX 80/552, TAL RS100/1000, Vixen SD115s/885
EQ: TAL MT-1, Vixen SXP, AXJ, AXD
Az/Alt: AYO Digi II/ Argo Navis, Stellarvue M2C/ Argo Navis
Tripods: Berlebach Planet (2), Uni 28 Astro, Report 372, TAL factory maple, Vixen ASG-CB90, Vixen AXD-TR102
Diagonals: Astro-Physics, Baader Amici, Baader Herschel, iStar Blue, Stellarvue DX, Takahashi prism, TAL, Vixen flip mirror
Eyepieces: Antares to Zeiss
The only culture I have is from yogurt
My day was going well until... people
Image
User avatar
notFritzArgelander
In Memory
In Memory
Articles: 0
Offline
Posts: 14925
Joined: Fri May 10, 2019 4:13 pm
4
Location: Idaho US
Status:
Offline

TSS Awards Badges

Re: Thoughts on Celestron Ultima 18mm vs Baader Classic Ortho 18mm?

#13

Post by notFritzArgelander »


Lady Fraktor wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 4:11 pm Define in the view :lol:

Both are good eyepieces, differences would be more subtle.
Possibly a slight difference in colour rendition from coatings, light scatter though this should be minimal with these eyepieces.
A lot depends on the telescope. A Masuyama is designed for f/7 and longer though using one in a shorter telescope can start showing some aberrations along the FOV edge, the Abbe would be good for f/5-6.

Either one would work well :)
Also, what are you viewing? If a stellar DSO at f7 or longer I'd not expect any differences. I've noticed that on nebular DSOs that the coatings on the BCOs present a slightly darker but more contrasty view with richer internal detail than other fine eyepieces.

I've not done a comparison on lunar/planetary targets. So I wouldn't hazard a guess.
Scopes: Refs: Orion ST80, SV 80EDA f7, TS 102ED f11 Newts: AWB 130mm, f5, Z12 f5; Cats: VMC110L, Intes MK66,VMC200L f9.75 EPs: KK Fujiyama Orthoscopics, 2x Vixen NPLs (40-6mm) and BCOs, Baader Mark IV zooms, TV Panoptics, Delos, Plossl 32-8mm. Mixed brand Masuyama/Astroplans Binoculars: Nikon Aculon 10x50, Celestron 15x70, Baader Maxbright. Mounts: Star Seeker IV, Vixen Porta II, Celestron CG5
User avatar
Don Pensack United States of America
Mars Ambassador
Articles: 0
Offline
Posts: 183
Joined: Tue May 25, 2021 8:07 pm
2
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Status:
Offline

Re: Thoughts on Celestron Ultima 18mm vs Baader Classic Ortho 18mm?

#14

Post by Don Pensack »


One difference of note is correction at the edge of the field, which is better in the Ultima than in the BCO.
I think Baader pushed the Abbe design a bit too far to gain a wider field, but at the loss of some edge sharpness.
Though, at f/7+, this difference will be less noticeable than at f/6-
Astronomer since 1963
Currently using a 12.5" dob and a 4" apo refractor
User avatar
MistrBadgr United States of America
Orion Spur Ambassador
Articles: 0
Offline
Posts: 748
Joined: Sat May 11, 2019 9:27 pm
4
Location: Broken Arrow, Okla, USA
Status:
Offline

TSS Awards Badges

Re: Thoughts on Celestron Ultima 18mm vs Baader Classic Ortho 18mm?

#15

Post by MistrBadgr »


Thanks everyone for the input! :)

The scopes I am planning for the astroplans are two f/8 refractors (60 and 100mm) and a 90mm f/11. They have all been worked over for reflection control with flocking, collimation, better focusers, even though the achromatic objectives are not top end in terms of money. All work nicely. The 60mm will be used for wider views, large star clusters, nebula, etc. The 90mm mostly planetary and lunar viewing. The 100mm for anything I can find with it. All will be used for star splitting fun as I am able. Conditions will be the low light end of Bortle 6, but on the edge of a city light dome at 700 ft elevation.
Bill Steen
Many small scopes, plus a Lightbridge 12, LX 70-8R,6R,6M
Many eyepieces, just not really expensive ones.
User avatar
Lady Fraktor Slovakia
Co-Administrator
Co-Administrator
Articles: 0
Offline
Posts: 9860
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:14 pm
4
Location: Slovakia
Status:
Offline

Re: Thoughts on Celestron Ultima 18mm vs Baader Classic Ortho 18mm?

#16

Post by Lady Fraktor »


I love my achromats :)
At the stated focal lengths either eyepiece will perform well.
See Far Sticks: Antares Elita 103/1575, AOM FLT 105/1000, Bresser BV 127/1200, Nočný stopár 152/1200, Vyrobené doma 70/700, Stellarvue NHNG DX 80/552, TAL RS100/1000, Vixen SD115s/885
EQ: TAL MT-1, Vixen SXP, AXJ, AXD
Az/Alt: AYO Digi II/ Argo Navis, Stellarvue M2C/ Argo Navis
Tripods: Berlebach Planet (2), Uni 28 Astro, Report 372, TAL factory maple, Vixen ASG-CB90, Vixen AXD-TR102
Diagonals: Astro-Physics, Baader Amici, Baader Herschel, iStar Blue, Stellarvue DX, Takahashi prism, TAL, Vixen flip mirror
Eyepieces: Antares to Zeiss
The only culture I have is from yogurt
My day was going well until... people
Image
User avatar
notFritzArgelander
In Memory
In Memory
Articles: 0
Offline
Posts: 14925
Joined: Fri May 10, 2019 4:13 pm
4
Location: Idaho US
Status:
Offline

TSS Awards Badges

Re: Thoughts on Celestron Ultima 18mm vs Baader Classic Ortho 18mm?

#17

Post by notFritzArgelander »


Lady Fraktor wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 7:20 pm I love my achromats :)
At the stated focal lengths either eyepiece will perform well.
Agreed. You really can't go wrong with either type. The only way is to be unlucky and get something that is a bad example. QC on both is quite good I believe.
Scopes: Refs: Orion ST80, SV 80EDA f7, TS 102ED f11 Newts: AWB 130mm, f5, Z12 f5; Cats: VMC110L, Intes MK66,VMC200L f9.75 EPs: KK Fujiyama Orthoscopics, 2x Vixen NPLs (40-6mm) and BCOs, Baader Mark IV zooms, TV Panoptics, Delos, Plossl 32-8mm. Mixed brand Masuyama/Astroplans Binoculars: Nikon Aculon 10x50, Celestron 15x70, Baader Maxbright. Mounts: Star Seeker IV, Vixen Porta II, Celestron CG5
Post Reply

Create an account or sign in to join the discussion

You need to be a member in order to post a reply

Create an account

Not a member? register to join our community
Members can start their own topics & subscribe to topics
It’s free and only takes a minute

Register

Sign in

Return to “Eyepieces”