CMOS or CCD.. Whats your choice?

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Aidi
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CMOS or CCD.. Whats your choice?

#1

Post by Aidi »


I am currently in two minds as to which i prefer. I have one of each, both mono. An Atik 460ex and a ZWO 1600 Pro.

As much as i like the ZWO 1600, i am really struggling with it. The gains are somewhat of a mystery to me.. I sort of get it what its all about, but not enough to fully understand how to adjust for the best results. Going by my sky conditions and equipment, i have settled on a gain of 76 and offset of 50 for LRGB. Exposures on LUM at 120s and RGB at 240s. Last target was M101 of which i took 30xLum and 30x RGB

The subs look ok in raw format. They dont appear over exposed, no great star blooming etc. When i run them through PI, the results are not very good. I'm certainly not the best with PI, but i know my way around.

Having just fitted my Atik 460ex onto the same scope/setup, and testing with 300 and 600s exposures, the results a so much better and the processing delivers some nice results.

Like many, clear skies are not too common here and with it not being dark till near on 11pm, time is precious. I am seriously considering dropping the CMOS and getting a larger CCD. Perhaps back to the Atik 383L or if i sell both cameras, something a bit bigger and just have the one.

Would be interested to hear what you experinces are.. or even perhaps offer some advice on where i could be going wrong with the CMOS camera.
Rgds
Aidi

Equipment: Skywatcher Esprit 120 | Altair Astro 70mm Quadruplet| EQ-6 R Pro | QHY PoleMaster | QHY5L-II Autoguide Camera | ZWO OAG | PHD2 | EQMOD/ASCOM | Atik 460ex Mono| ZWO ASI 1600mm Pro| Pegasus UPB & Focusers | SGP Pro | CDC | PS 2017 | PixInsight
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Re: CMOS or CCD.. Whats your choice?

#2

Post by Altocumulus »


Bagging a seat on the sofa to watch the conversation.....
Just call me Geoff....

I do what I do because I can, and because I want to.
It doesn't mean I know what I'm doing :mrgreen:
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Re: CMOS or CCD.. Whats your choice?

#3

Post by sdbodin »


OK, ditto for me, but my 1600 is the OSC version. My comments are the same, the 460ex is superior. Given that, the 1600 is very versatile and a third the cost of the Atik. I use my 1600 on my 80APO as a wide field getter and run in conjunction with the Bigdog 16 getting a close-up,

Standard exposure for my 1600 is 2 minutes at gain 200, offset 50, -20C at f6. Some bright stars are clipped, but who cares. Care must be taken in processing not to push the data too far as it is easy to clip everything. I do my stretching in Nebulosity Digital Development process and finish up in Photoshop. I usually expose my 460ex for 5 minutes with any filter. Nothing special about these times, but just works for my setup.

But, I am happy with both cameras, however the 1600 is out of production and replaced with the 294 which is superior, I believe, as it is a 14 bit camera vice 12 and still one third the price.

Just thoughts,
Steve
Scopes; Meade 16 LX200, AT80LE, plus bunch just sitting around gathering dust
Cameras; Atik 460ex mono, Zwo ASI1600MC-cool, QHY5L-II color and mono
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Re: CMOS or CCD.. Whats your choice?

#4

Post by Gordon »


There is a pretty big learning curve on getting the settings dialed in on the ZWO ASI family of cameras. However once you have it figured out they do give good results. So it's kind of a trade off price vs your time and frustration level.
Gordon
Scopes: Explore Scientific ED80CF, Skywatcher 200 Quattro Imaging Newt, SeeStar S50 for EAA.
Mounts: Orion Atlas EQ-g mount & Skywatcher EQ5 Pro.
ZWO mini guider.
Image cameras: ZWO ASI1600 MM Cool, ZWO ASI533mc-Pro, ZWO ASI174mm-C (for use with my Quark chromosphere), ZWO ASI120MC
Filters: LRGB, Ha 7nm, O-III 7nm, S-II 7nm
Eyepieces: a few.
Primary software: Cartes du Ciel, N.I.N.A, StarTools V1.4.

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Re: CMOS or CCD.. Whats your choice?

#5

Post by UlteriorModem »


Huh thought I had posted on this earlier.

Whatever here is my take on it. Not really CCD vs CMOS but...

I used to imaged with an ATIK 383L+ monochrome with an automated filter wheel. It would take me weeks to compile a complete set of data, not to mention all the individual flats and other calibration files. Then it would take several hours to process the data and combine it into LRGB. The results were quite good.

Now I image with an ASI1600mc (OSC) the work load is greatly reduced and only one set of calibration files are needed. Processing is much simpler and quicker. The results are quite good.

The resolution is not quite as good with the 1600 but there pretty darn close.

It will be a long time before I go back to 4 channel imaging! ;)
Tom

Current Equipment:
Mount: Celestron CGX-L
Scope: 130mm f7 APO
Cam: ASI071mc-pro
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Re: CMOS or CCD.. Whats your choice?

#6

Post by XCalRocketMan »


I generally stick to 139/21 on the ASI1600mm for LRGB (30-180 sec) and 300/50 (300-600 sec) for NB. I've gotten some really good results with those settings. I'm still waiting for my QHY10 to return from Hong Kong (needed repair - yet I still haven't been told that they've had a chance to look at it yet - been over 6 weeks!)

I like both the CCD and the CMOS.
Scopes Celestron EdgeHD-11; William Optics GT102; William Optics ZS61; Criterion Dynamax-8 SCT
Mounts AP1100GTO mount w/APCCpro; iOptron iEQ30 Pro; Criterion Dynamax-8 SCT
Lenses Hyperstar-III; Celestron 0.7x FR; WO Flat/Reducer 0.8x
Guiding Celestron OAG w/ASI174mm mini; WO 50mm; Orion ST80
Cameras and Filters ZWO2600mm Pro w/Optolong 3nm NB and RGB; ZWOASI1600mm Pro (ZWO LRGB and Astrodon Ha-5nm, Oiii-3nm, Sii-5nm), QHY10, Canon 50D; ASI174mm mini; ASI462MC; ASI120MC
Misc Moonlite focuser on Edge - Feather-Touch focuser on GT102; ZWO EAF on ZS61; ZWO 2" and 31mm FWs; Kendrick Dew System, Temp-est Fans
Software NINA; PHD; APT; BYE; PI; APP; PSP; Registax; FireCapture; SharpCap
Blog at: SkyAndRockets
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Re: CMOS or CCD.. Whats your choice?

#7

Post by mcolbert »


FWIW; I was speaking to a professional astronomer the other day and she stated that they still use CCD's and that CMOS is mostly for photographers and amateurs on limited budgets. Granted that their cameras are a trifle more expensive (like 10,000 Euros plus - second hand) ;(. - and so to my mind I would like to explore both, see what the limitations and strengths are in each model. Maybe we have here another case of one size will never fit all? Heck I've still got (refrigerated) 5x4 IR film and MF film around somewhere. :).
Refractor - APQ 130 Reflector - Meade SCT Au coating. Mount - AYOMaster (on order)
Cameras - Blads, D70s, D3300, Lunar and Planetary Cameras (2)
DIY Glass - German military and opthalmic sourced items, AGFA AVIPHOT DIA C
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Re: CMOS or CCD.. Whats your choice?

#8

Post by UlteriorModem »


I have been using 139 / 21 with my ASI 1600 at 300 seconds with good results.
Tom

Current Equipment:
Mount: Celestron CGX-L
Scope: 130mm f7 APO
Cam: ASI071mc-pro
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Benjamin Australia
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Re: CMOS or CCD.. Whats your choice?

#9

Post by Benjamin »


Only ever had the ASI1600MM-Pro but very happy at 139/21 with 30s LRGB exposures at f4 in a red zone. For narrowband I’ve just been upping the exposure length to 180s. Much more to learn about this camera but wasn’t so happy with the internal reflections on bright stars (Alnitak being the major culprit).
Scopes:Skywatcher f5 12" Dob, f4 8” Quattro, Esprit 100
Mounts:Skywatcher EQ6-R (EQMod)
Cameras:ZWO ASI2600MM-Pro, Astronomik 2” filters
Apps:PHD2, Sequence Generator Pro, PixInsight
Eyepieces:Explore Scientific, Pentax XW, TeleVue Panoptic, Delos, Ethos
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Re: CMOS or CCD.. Whats your choice?

#10

Post by UlteriorModem »


Benjamin wrote: Sat May 25, 2019 1:07 pm Only ever had the ASI1600MM-Pro but very happy at 139/21 with 30s LRGB exposures at f4 in a red zone. For narrowband I’ve just been upping the exposure length to 180s. Much more to learn about this camera but wasn’t so happy with the internal reflections on bright stars (Alnitak being the major culprit).
Put a luminous filter in front of it ;) Helps a lot. But Altinak yea he is a pretty proud star!
Tom

Current Equipment:
Mount: Celestron CGX-L
Scope: 130mm f7 APO
Cam: ASI071mc-pro
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Re: CMOS or CCD.. Whats your choice?

#11

Post by Aidi »


A bit of a break through last night with the 1600 on my Esprit 120. I was recommended to try doing LRGB at Gain 76 and Offset 21 with exposures at 600s for each filter.

Slewed over to M51 and managed just a few subs at the above settings before the clouds stopped play. Have to admit, i was pretty pleased with the results. Not enough to get a combined image but enough to see that the detail is there. I am hoping this might be a bit of a turning point with this camera :-)
Rgds
Aidi

Equipment: Skywatcher Esprit 120 | Altair Astro 70mm Quadruplet| EQ-6 R Pro | QHY PoleMaster | QHY5L-II Autoguide Camera | ZWO OAG | PHD2 | EQMOD/ASCOM | Atik 460ex Mono| ZWO ASI 1600mm Pro| Pegasus UPB & Focusers | SGP Pro | CDC | PS 2017 | PixInsight
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Re: CMOS or CCD.. Whats your choice?

#12

Post by XCalRocketMan »


Aidi wrote: Mon May 27, 2019 2:21 pm A bit of a break through last night with the 1600 on my Esprit 120. I was recommended to try doing LRGB at Gain 76 and Offset 21 with exposures at 600s for each filter.

Slewed over to M51 and managed just a few subs at the above settings before the clouds stopped play. Have to admit, i was pretty pleased with the results. Not enough to get a combined image but enough to see that the detail is there. I am hoping this might be a bit of a turning point with this camera :-)
Keep going, you'll get there and you'll like the results. Take a look at my photos on Astrobin and Gary Imm's (which are much better than mine) many are with ASI1600s ( and I have a number with the QHY10 - a CCD).
http://www.astrobin.com/users/XCalRocketMan/
http://www.astrobin.com/users/GaryI/collections/
Scopes Celestron EdgeHD-11; William Optics GT102; William Optics ZS61; Criterion Dynamax-8 SCT
Mounts AP1100GTO mount w/APCCpro; iOptron iEQ30 Pro; Criterion Dynamax-8 SCT
Lenses Hyperstar-III; Celestron 0.7x FR; WO Flat/Reducer 0.8x
Guiding Celestron OAG w/ASI174mm mini; WO 50mm; Orion ST80
Cameras and Filters ZWO2600mm Pro w/Optolong 3nm NB and RGB; ZWOASI1600mm Pro (ZWO LRGB and Astrodon Ha-5nm, Oiii-3nm, Sii-5nm), QHY10, Canon 50D; ASI174mm mini; ASI462MC; ASI120MC
Misc Moonlite focuser on Edge - Feather-Touch focuser on GT102; ZWO EAF on ZS61; ZWO 2" and 31mm FWs; Kendrick Dew System, Temp-est Fans
Software NINA; PHD; APT; BYE; PI; APP; PSP; Registax; FireCapture; SharpCap
Blog at: SkyAndRockets
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Re: CMOS or CCD.. Whats your choice?

#13

Post by JayTee »


Has anyone considered using the 294MC Pro instead of the 1600MM/MC Pro? Forget the fact that one is color the other mono. Or if you go with the 1600MC forget the fact that it is not cooled. The 294 has both a bigger sensor and bigger pixels. Granted the 1600's resolution will be better because it has more pixels, but there is a trade-off here worth considering. Bigger pixels handle poorer seeing better. Large area targets (M31, M45) in a short FL scope don't need the higher resolution. What do you all think?

Cheers,
JT

Here's a link to the specs for both:
https://agenaastro.com/zwo-asi294mc-pro ... amera.html
https://agenaastro.com/zwo-asi1600mm-p- ... a-pro.html
∞ Primary Scopes: #1: Celestron CPC1100 #2: 8" f/7.5 Dob #3: CR150HD f/8 6" frac
∞ AP Scopes: #1: TPO 6" f/9 RC #2: ES 102 f/7 APO #3: ES 80mm f/6 APO
∞ G&G Scopes: #1: Meade 102mm f/7.8 #2: Bresser 102mm f/4.5
∞ Guide Scopes: 70 & 80mm fracs -- The El Cheapo Bros.
∞ Mounts: iOptron CEM70AG, SW EQ6, Celestron AVX, SLT & GT (Alt-Az), Meade DS2000
∞ Cameras: #1: ZWO ASI294MC Pro #2: 662MC #3: 120MC, Canon T3i, Orion SSAG, WYZE Cam3
∞ Binos: 10X50,11X70,15X70, 25X100
∞ EPs: ES 2": 21mm 100° & 30mm 82° Pentax XW: 7, 10, 14, & 20mm 70°

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sdbodin United States of America
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Re: CMOS or CCD.. Whats your choice?

#14

Post by sdbodin »


Well, that's my recommendation if you want an OSC since the 1600MC-cool like mine is no longer offered by ZWO. It seems that the Meade DSI-IV color might be almost the same camera as the 1600MC-cool and at the same price. S&T recently reviewed it and liked it.

And, everybody need an OSC too.
Steve
Scopes; Meade 16 LX200, AT80LE, plus bunch just sitting around gathering dust
Cameras; Atik 460ex mono, Zwo ASI1600MC-cool, QHY5L-II color and mono
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Re: CMOS or CCD.. Whats your choice?

#15

Post by jinzai »


My two cents worth is based solely on my experiences with the QHY163C -- CMOS, however -- I think that the process is essentially the same for CCD or CMOS.

I have been using 'the 'seat of my pants' method more than anything else. Try something, it works or doesn't, research it...read more of others' discussions, etc. I error on the underexpose side and -- try to limit the noise in all its forms...including read noise, which is tied to gain vs. exposure length. (Lots of short exposures at the wrong gain will contribute more to read noise.) I think that where I have gotten good results was more dumb luck than anything else. (Plus....my gear is very nice, not top of the line, but certainly not what I grew up with, either.)

SharpCap 3.1 Pro now has a Sensor Analysis tool that will be of great benefit in determining settings for a particular set of conditions and you can choose between unity gain or maximum dynamic range. (At a gain of one, I have 12 stops of range.) You have to run the analysis on your image train and then the histogram gets a 'brain' -- shockingly similar to the one in PHD2, as it turns out. I watched two great videos that featured Robin Glover -- one was a speech he gave and the other was an interview. I am even more of a fan, now.

So, I am currently building my lightbox for flats and for use in SharpCap and once I get my rig profiled, I can use the brain instead of the seat of my pants. (Which, by the way -- contrary to the opinion of some -- is not where my brain resides.)
Michael
Meade ETX-125 Observer (127mm f/15) Maksutov-Cassegrain
Explore Scientific ED80CF f/6 Apochromatic Refractor
Celestron AVX
QHY 30mm Mini Guidescope
QHY 5II Guide camera
QHY163C
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Re: CMOS or CCD.. Whats your choice?

#16

Post by Pauls72 »


To start with set your camera to Unity Gain. You can find the value on the manufactures web site. At this setting 1 photon will give you 1 ADU value.
Take a sample image of what ever you want to image at the length you want. Then adjust the offset so the data is kind of centered in the histogram. The main thing is you do not want the data running into either end of the histogram. This is called clipping and you loose data when it happens. If it is happening, you can shorten your exposure or lower your gain.

QHY163 = 12
QHY183 = 11
ASI1600 = 139
ASI183 = 120
ASI294 = 117
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