New Gear, Old Gear -- The Good, The Bad, The Ugly!!!

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JayTee United States of America
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New Gear, Old Gear -- The Good, The Bad, The Ugly!!!

#1

Post by JayTee »


Hi gang,

Last week I had the opportunity to image over two nights. It gave me the chance to try out a new piece of gear. It also showed me that our AP skills are very perishable and lastly it showed that I have a piece of gear that is very troublesome.

The Good: I finally got the new piece of gear needed to attach my guide camera, a ZWO ASI120MC, to my AVX mount saddle to accomplish a polar alignment with either SharpCap or the static polar alignment in PHD2. The new mounting hardware is from ADM accessories and is moderately priced. I had Anthony at ADM drill a "pass-through" hole in the center of the vertical plate (not shown in the first picture) so I could attach my guide camera. I also picked up a couple of short $7 V-bars off eBay and used these, bolted small side to small side, as the adapter to attach my new gear to my AVX saddle. As you can see from the picture it's a simple setup and it worked just as expected. I was able to use 10-second exposures and could see enough stars to do the polar alignment in both SharpCap and PHD2. There is now no need for a Pole Master for my mount.
VPA Pole.jpg
VBar.jpg
VBar.jpg (9.78 KiB) Viewed 2556 times
ZWO Lens3.jpg
ZWO Lens.jpg
The Bad: About the perishability of our skills. I have not had a night worthy of imaging since February of this year. Over that time, A lot of my normal routine has been not necessarily forgotten, let's just say, misplaced. So it was a bit frustrating and also a bit of a comedy of errors as I set up and attempted to execute many of the subroutines needed in getting ready to go for the evening's imaging session. The first night showed all of the kinks and deficiencies in my knowledge. Things smooth out considerably on the second night.

The Ugly: Lastly, my problem child. My Celestron AVX EQ mount has degenerated to the point where it is unusable. I had significant amounts of error in both the dec and RA axes over both nights of guided imaging, granted I was using my 6in RC which has a relatively small Imaging scale .76 arcseconds per pixel so this makes guiding a bit problematic and in my case nearly impossible. And yes, everything was balanced to the best of this mounts ability. Over both nights I experienced a mean RMS error of 3 arcseconds per pixel. I had to throw away every subframe. At this point, I think I'm going to repurpose this mount and leave it in the garage and turn it into a paint can shaker. This seems appropriate given its incredibly poor performance. I know surgery is warranted I just don't know if the patient is terminal or not. Thank God Christmas is around the corner. I may ask Santa for a new mount.

Anyway, there you have it a couple of nights of The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly.

Go forth and image, cheers,
JT
∞ Primary Scopes: #1: Celestron CPC1100 #2: 8" f/7.5 Dob #3: CR150HD f/8 6" frac
∞ AP Scopes: #1: TPO 6" f/9 RC #2: ES 102 f/7 APO #3: ES 80mm f/6 APO
∞ G&G Scopes: #1: Meade 102mm f/7.8 #2: Bresser 102mm f/4.5
∞ Guide Scopes: 70 & 80mm fracs -- The El Cheapo Bros.
∞ Mounts: iOptron CEM70AG, SW EQ6, Celestron AVX, SLT & GT (Alt-Az), Meade DS2000
∞ Cameras: #1: ZWO ASI294MC Pro #2: 662MC #3: 120MC, Canon T3i, Orion SSAG, WYZE Cam3
∞ Binos: 10X50,11X70,15X70, 25X100
∞ EPs: ES 2": 21mm 100° & 30mm 82° Pentax XW: 7, 10, 14, & 20mm 70°

Searching the skies since 1966. "I never met a scope I didn't want to keep."

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Re: New Gear, Old Gear -- The Good, The Bad, The Ugly!!!

#2

Post by Kingofthehill »


A paint can shaker? That "paints" a clear picture of your travails. Too bad. More good images are on/above the horizon.
Paul
Main telescope used is Obsession 18UC
Cut my teeth on Orion 10" Dob
AR152 and Orion ST80 sit mostly unused
Lots of binoculars
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Re: New Gear, Old Gear -- The Good, The Bad, The Ugly!!!

#3

Post by OhNo »


Sad to here about your "Paint Can Shaker". Lets look on the positive side, if Santa brings you a new mount, you can strip the old AVX right down to the bare bones (hopefully with pictures) and see how it all goes together. Maybe come up with a recipe for fixing it's manufactured shortfalls.....

Se you've found the goodies to get your ZWO connected to you lens.
Scopes: SkyWatcher 8" Quattro, Celestron C8, SkyWatcher ST120, Orion ST80, SharpStar 61EDPH II. SLT 130 Celestron
Mounts: CGEM, CG-4, EQ2, Alt Az, SLT
Cameras: ZWO ASI533MC Pro, ZWO ASI120MM, Canon 1100D
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Juno16 United States of America
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Re: New Gear, Old Gear -- The Good, The Bad, The Ugly!!!

#4

Post by Juno16 »


Dang JT!

I really hate to hear of the issues that you had. Its been a couple of months since I’ve been out and i have somewhat lost my rythm.

I know its a huge bummer when you finally get out after a long wait and have your equipment lets you down.

I remember a while back you said that your guiding rms error values were going up and you would have to “do something” soon. You sent me a bunch of links covering a variety of tweaks for the AVX. Some were much more than tweaks.
Did you ever get around to trying any of them out?

My RMS error sometimes will bounce up to 2 seconds per pixel, but usually will settle down to its normal 1.3-1.5.
BTW, how to you calculate the mean rms error? In PHD, the mean also includes my large dithers which add a huge amount to my mean rms error.

Something else that I was going to ask you and please forgive my inexperience if I am way off base.
You mentioned that you had significant amounts of error in both your DEC and RA axis. If I get a good PA ( I use Sharpcap), then my DEC axis hardly ever needs corrections. Whenever the DEC does drift enough to require corrections, PHD has to send many pulses (sometimes 20 or more) to get a response from the mount (backlash). I usually don’t see a bad DEC rms error, because it never gets very far off.

Several months ago, I had a very poor night of guiding with mean RMS error of over 2 arcseconds and never getting much lower (usually higher). Turned out that the RA clutch lever was rubbing on the RA gearbox cover. Strange, but I have read about the same issue from other users here. Easy fix by repositioning the lever.
A252E2A9-0969-44BC-BF35-1ECC7EC0D31B.jpeg
I know that the AVX has its challenges, but a Paint Shaker! Haha!

OhNo (Brent) has a good point. If you do get another mount, you could tear the AVX down and try out some of those tweaks/mods. The AVX is probably easier to drag in and out than “better” mounts and would make an excellent back-up!

Thanks,
Jim
Jim

Scopes: Explore Scientific ED102 APO, Sharpstar 61 EDPH II APO, Samyang 135 F2 (still on the Nikon).
Mount: Skywatcher HEQ5 Pro with Rowan Belt Mod
Stuff: ASI EAF Focus Motor (x2), Orion 50mm Guide Scope, ZWO 30 mm Guide Scope, ASI 220mm min, ASI 120mm mini, Stellarview 0.8 FR/FF, Sharpstar 0.8 FR/FF, Mele Overloock 3C.
Camera/Filters/Software: ASI 533 mc pro, ASI 120mm mini, Orion SSAG, IDAS LPS D-1, Optolong L-Enhance, ZWO UV/IR Cut, N.I.N.A., Green Swamp Server, PHD2, Adobe Photoshop CC, Pixinsight.
Dog and best bud: Jack
Sky: Bortle 6-7
My Astrobin: https://www.astrobin.com/users/Juno16/
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Re: New Gear, Old Gear -- The Good, The Bad, The Ugly!!!

#5

Post by fatboy1271 »


Hey JT,

Bummer that you don't get many good nights. Even bigger bummer that when you do it's so frustrating... I know exactly what you mean but basic skills being out of tough. After my two year "break" I really felt lost. Luckily it didn't take long to get back into it :)

I'm very interested in how well or not the camera lens is working on the ASI; as I have the same camera!
OTAs: Explore Scientific ED80 Essential Edition / The Little Guy (Celestron 90SLT)
Mount: Celestron Advanced VX
Gear: Canon 70D / Hutech LPS-D1-48 / ES 2" Field Flattener / QHY PoleMaster / Celestron GPS / ZWO ASI120MC / Orion 50mm Guide Scope / ZWO EAF
Software: CPWI / PHD2 / N.I.N.A / Stellarium/StellariumScope/Remote Control / PI / RegiStax 6 / AutoStakkert!2 / PIPP | Retired? BackyardEOS Premium
EPs: Stock Celestron 9mm and 24mm / Celestron Omni 32mm (I love this one!) / Celestron X-Cel LX 3x Barlow (I think 2X would have been smarter...)
Support Staff (Loved Ones!): CeCe, Ro, and Geno
Let's Go Pens!!!
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JayTee United States of America
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Re: New Gear, Old Gear -- The Good, The Bad, The Ugly!!!

#6

Post by JayTee »


Juno16 wrote: Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:28 pmSomething else that I was going to ask you and please forgive my inexperience if I am way off base. You mentioned that you had significant amounts of error in both your DEC and RA axis. If I get a good PA ( I use Sharpcap), then my DEC axis hardly ever needs corrections. Whenever the DEC does drift enough to require corrections, PHD has to send many pulses (sometimes 20 or more) to get a response from the mount (backlash). I usually don’t see a bad DEC rms error, because it never gets very far off.

Several months ago, I had a very poor night of guiding with mean RMS error of over 2 arcseconds and never getting much lower (usually higher). Turned out that the RA clutch lever was rubbing on the RA gearbox cover. Strange, but I have read about the same issue from other users here. Easy fix by repositioning the lever.

OhNo (Brent) has a good point. If you do get another mount, you could tear the AVX down and try out some of those tweaks/mods. The AVX is probably easier to drag in and out than “better” mounts and would make an excellent back-up!
Hi Jim,

Thanks for your observations and input.

It was unusual for the Dec to be acting up so much. I suspected cable drag, and clutch lever interference or just a bad PA, but it was none of those things. I should have pointed out that the main culprit was really the RA axis. The Dec was only contributing about 1.5 arcseconds of error, it was the RA axis that had the 3 arcsecond swings every 30-60 seconds. I was stumped as to what was causing this. I attempted several re-balancings, re-routed the cords (of which there were only two, one to each camera), plus I scoured every square inch looking for the source of the disturbance/drag. No luck, plus where I was pointing in the sky didn't seem to make much of a difference. M33 was at the Zenith and NGC 253 was at about 40° elevation and both locations exhibited the same behavior.

No, I have not yet poked my nose into the inner workings of this mount. And I really do think the problem is inside. I bought this AVX mount used from a college student who used it only for visual observing. It looked pristine when I bought it but you never know what it has really been through and it has always been a poor AP mount because of this erratic performance. This purchase was always intended as an interim step to a much better mount. Life can sometimes make interim last a looonnnggg time. It is time to move on to a new mount.

So when the new mount arrives (probably early next year) I will use that opportunity to tear down this mount and inspect and repair (if possible). Until then, I will only use my ES 80mm on it as that is produces a much more forgiving imaging scale.
fatboy1271 wrote: Mon Nov 18, 2019 9:22 pmI'm very interested in how well or not the camera lens is working on the ASI; as I have the same camera!
Hi Patrick,

It works PERFECTLY! After buying and trying many different adapters and spacers (I could never guess right), I finally went with the one offered by ZWO (made for their cameras -- go figure). It screws directly into the camera body and is made for Canon EOS lenses - either type. NO spacers needed. The rig is light and held firmly in place by just that one 1/4-20 screw in the base. Focusing is always a bit problematic but for a PA it is not that critical and I have a "mini-me" Bahtinov mask for EOS lenses. So all accessories for attaching the camera to the mount to came ($44 + $14 [the two $7 V-bars]) $58. A heckuva lot less than a Pole Master. Additionally, Anthony (owner of ADM) is going to make this "pass-through" hole a standard feature when he fabricates his next batch of this accessory. In the meantime, he will drill the hole for you at no extra charge!

Cheers everybody,
JT
∞ Primary Scopes: #1: Celestron CPC1100 #2: 8" f/7.5 Dob #3: CR150HD f/8 6" frac
∞ AP Scopes: #1: TPO 6" f/9 RC #2: ES 102 f/7 APO #3: ES 80mm f/6 APO
∞ G&G Scopes: #1: Meade 102mm f/7.8 #2: Bresser 102mm f/4.5
∞ Guide Scopes: 70 & 80mm fracs -- The El Cheapo Bros.
∞ Mounts: iOptron CEM70AG, SW EQ6, Celestron AVX, SLT & GT (Alt-Az), Meade DS2000
∞ Cameras: #1: ZWO ASI294MC Pro #2: 662MC #3: 120MC, Canon T3i, Orion SSAG, WYZE Cam3
∞ Binos: 10X50,11X70,15X70, 25X100
∞ EPs: ES 2": 21mm 100° & 30mm 82° Pentax XW: 7, 10, 14, & 20mm 70°

Searching the skies since 1966. "I never met a scope I didn't want to keep."

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Re: New Gear, Old Gear -- The Good, The Bad, The Ugly!!!

#7

Post by Bigzmey »


Bummer about AVX, but at least you have sold the adapter issue. So what mount you gonna ask Santa to bring? ;)
Scopes: Stellarvue: SV102ED; Celestron: 9.25" EdgeHD, 8" SCT, 150ST, Onyx 80ED; iOptron: Hankmeister 6" Mak; SW: 7" Mak; Meade: 80ST.
Mounts: SW: SkyTee2, AzGTi; iOptron: AZMP; ES: Twilight I; Bresser: EXOS2; UA: MicroStar.
Binos: APM: 100-90 APO; Canon: IS 15x50; Orion: Binoviewer, LG II 15x70, WV 10x50, Nikon: AE 16x50, 10x50, 8x40.
EPs: Pentax: XWs & XFs; TeleVue: Delites, Panoptic & Plossls; ES: 68, 62; Vixen: SLVs; Baader: BCOs, Aspherics, Mark IV.
Diagonals: Baader: BBHS mirror, Zeiss Spec T2 prism, Clicklock dielectric; TeleVue: Evebrite dielectric; AltairAstro: 2" prism.
Filters: Lumicon: DeepSky, UHC, OIII, H-beta; Baader: Moon & SkyGlow, Contrast Booster, UHC-S, 6-color set; Astronomik: UHC.

Observing: DSOs: 3106 (Completed: Messier, Herschel 1, 2, 3. In progress: H2,500: 2180, S110: 77). Doubles: 2382, Comets: 34, Asteroids: 255
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Juno16 United States of America
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Re: New Gear, Old Gear -- The Good, The Bad, The Ugly!!!

#8

Post by Juno16 »


Yes, a bummer for sure.

I hope to use my AVX for quite a while. It is challenging sometimes and occasionally causes me some grief. I don’t expect it to be perfect and it never is, but it gets the job done good enough for me.

Sounds like you did get good service out of your AVX. I’ll bet that you are getting exciting about getting a new mount though!

Thanks,
Jim
Jim

Scopes: Explore Scientific ED102 APO, Sharpstar 61 EDPH II APO, Samyang 135 F2 (still on the Nikon).
Mount: Skywatcher HEQ5 Pro with Rowan Belt Mod
Stuff: ASI EAF Focus Motor (x2), Orion 50mm Guide Scope, ZWO 30 mm Guide Scope, ASI 220mm min, ASI 120mm mini, Stellarview 0.8 FR/FF, Sharpstar 0.8 FR/FF, Mele Overloock 3C.
Camera/Filters/Software: ASI 533 mc pro, ASI 120mm mini, Orion SSAG, IDAS LPS D-1, Optolong L-Enhance, ZWO UV/IR Cut, N.I.N.A., Green Swamp Server, PHD2, Adobe Photoshop CC, Pixinsight.
Dog and best bud: Jack
Sky: Bortle 6-7
My Astrobin: https://www.astrobin.com/users/Juno16/
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Re: New Gear, Old Gear -- The Good, The Bad, The Ugly!!!

#9

Post by JayTee »


Bigzmey wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:12 amSo what mount you gonna ask Santa to bring? ;)
Hi Andrey, [mention]Bigzmey[/mention]

Well, I thought I would break down my request to Santa much the way we instructed my youngest on how to structure his college apps.

Dream: 10 Micron, MESU 200
Plan A: CEM 60 EC, CGX-L, SW EQ8R Pro
Plan B: CGX, SW EQ6R Pro, CEM 40 EC

It seems apparent that these are pretty much arranged by price. I hope Santa doesn't have to rob a bank to get me one of my "dream" machines. Even if it winds up being a plan B mount, I don't think I will be "settling", these are all high-quality mounts.

Cheers,
JT
∞ Primary Scopes: #1: Celestron CPC1100 #2: 8" f/7.5 Dob #3: CR150HD f/8 6" frac
∞ AP Scopes: #1: TPO 6" f/9 RC #2: ES 102 f/7 APO #3: ES 80mm f/6 APO
∞ G&G Scopes: #1: Meade 102mm f/7.8 #2: Bresser 102mm f/4.5
∞ Guide Scopes: 70 & 80mm fracs -- The El Cheapo Bros.
∞ Mounts: iOptron CEM70AG, SW EQ6, Celestron AVX, SLT & GT (Alt-Az), Meade DS2000
∞ Cameras: #1: ZWO ASI294MC Pro #2: 662MC #3: 120MC, Canon T3i, Orion SSAG, WYZE Cam3
∞ Binos: 10X50,11X70,15X70, 25X100
∞ EPs: ES 2": 21mm 100° & 30mm 82° Pentax XW: 7, 10, 14, & 20mm 70°

Searching the skies since 1966. "I never met a scope I didn't want to keep."

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Re: New Gear, Old Gear -- The Good, The Bad, The Ugly!!!

#10

Post by fatboy1271 »


Hey JT,

Could you do terrestrial video with the 120 and an EOS lens? Seems possible, but would it be something to do?
OTAs: Explore Scientific ED80 Essential Edition / The Little Guy (Celestron 90SLT)
Mount: Celestron Advanced VX
Gear: Canon 70D / Hutech LPS-D1-48 / ES 2" Field Flattener / QHY PoleMaster / Celestron GPS / ZWO ASI120MC / Orion 50mm Guide Scope / ZWO EAF
Software: CPWI / PHD2 / N.I.N.A / Stellarium/StellariumScope/Remote Control / PI / RegiStax 6 / AutoStakkert!2 / PIPP | Retired? BackyardEOS Premium
EPs: Stock Celestron 9mm and 24mm / Celestron Omni 32mm (I love this one!) / Celestron X-Cel LX 3x Barlow (I think 2X would have been smarter...)
Support Staff (Loved Ones!): CeCe, Ro, and Geno
Let's Go Pens!!!
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Re: New Gear, Old Gear -- The Good, The Bad, The Ugly!!!

#11

Post by JayTee »


Hi [mention]fatboy1271[/mention] Patrick,

Yes, you can absolutely shoot terrestrial video. It's just that you will need your laptop to do it! Which makes this kind of an unwieldy video imaging rig.

Cheers,
JT
∞ Primary Scopes: #1: Celestron CPC1100 #2: 8" f/7.5 Dob #3: CR150HD f/8 6" frac
∞ AP Scopes: #1: TPO 6" f/9 RC #2: ES 102 f/7 APO #3: ES 80mm f/6 APO
∞ G&G Scopes: #1: Meade 102mm f/7.8 #2: Bresser 102mm f/4.5
∞ Guide Scopes: 70 & 80mm fracs -- The El Cheapo Bros.
∞ Mounts: iOptron CEM70AG, SW EQ6, Celestron AVX, SLT & GT (Alt-Az), Meade DS2000
∞ Cameras: #1: ZWO ASI294MC Pro #2: 662MC #3: 120MC, Canon T3i, Orion SSAG, WYZE Cam3
∞ Binos: 10X50,11X70,15X70, 25X100
∞ EPs: ES 2": 21mm 100° & 30mm 82° Pentax XW: 7, 10, 14, & 20mm 70°

Searching the skies since 1966. "I never met a scope I didn't want to keep."

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Re: New Gear, Old Gear -- The Good, The Bad, The Ugly!!!

#12

Post by fatboy1271 »


JayTee wrote: Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:09 am Hi @fatboy1271 Patrick,

Yes, you can absolutely shoot terrestrial video. It's just that you will need your laptop to do it! Which makes this kind of an unwieldy video imaging rig.

Cheers,
JT
Awesome! I was really hoping it wasn't a stupid question :)

While I get what you mean about being unwieldy it could make for some otherwise hard to image areas more accessible. With a nice Zoom I could record the hills/mountains that I can see from my backyard. Who knows what I'll find!
OTAs: Explore Scientific ED80 Essential Edition / The Little Guy (Celestron 90SLT)
Mount: Celestron Advanced VX
Gear: Canon 70D / Hutech LPS-D1-48 / ES 2" Field Flattener / QHY PoleMaster / Celestron GPS / ZWO ASI120MC / Orion 50mm Guide Scope / ZWO EAF
Software: CPWI / PHD2 / N.I.N.A / Stellarium/StellariumScope/Remote Control / PI / RegiStax 6 / AutoStakkert!2 / PIPP | Retired? BackyardEOS Premium
EPs: Stock Celestron 9mm and 24mm / Celestron Omni 32mm (I love this one!) / Celestron X-Cel LX 3x Barlow (I think 2X would have been smarter...)
Support Staff (Loved Ones!): CeCe, Ro, and Geno
Let's Go Pens!!!
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