To Astro mod a DSLR Or Not?

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To Astro mod a DSLR Or Not?

#1

Post by Juno16 »


Hi Everyone!

I am a beginner at AP using my Nikon D5300 (unmodded). My future plans are to have the camera Astro modified sometime in the future.

I read that conventional wisdom definitely points to Astro modding a dslr for imaging, but last night, I read something on the internet that seems to totally contradict everything else that I have heard and read. I am talking about using an un- modified vs. a modified dslr for Astro imaging.

What I read is on a website br Dr. Roger Clark (clarkvision.com).
Dr Clark has a very impressive resume.

Dr. Clark states below:

“The advantage of a stock digital camera in astrophotography is that the color balance is close to that of the human eye, and shows compositional differences better. Modified digital cameras are too sensitive to hydrogen alpha emission, making scenes containing hydrogen too red, swamping colors from other compositions. Often this shows in amateur astrophotos as dominantly red. The choice of course is personal. I prefer images with more colors to show more processes and chemistry. I believe such images are more interesting, so I only use stock digital cameras for my astrophotography.”

I admit that I haven’t completely read all of the information on his website, so there might be things that I have not read yet. The website has lots and f interesting information.

Have any of you looked at clarkvision.com?

I guess that is it really a personal thing, but any thoughts about this way of thinking?

Thanks for any comments that you have.

Jim
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Scopes: Explore Scientific ED102 APO, Sharpstar 61 EDPH II APO, Samyang 135 F2 (still on the Nikon).
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Re: To Astro mod a DSLR Or Not?

#2

Post by KingClinton »


I have kept mine stock standard so cannot make a useful comparison.

Take a look at what Jerry Lodriguss has to say on the matter. His webpage is crammed full of useful info.


http://www.astropix.com/html/i_astrop/dslr_ha.html
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Re: To Astro mod a DSLR Or Not?

#3

Post by Gordon »


I have a modified Canon XT that I modified myself. There is a significant difference on certain nebula. The reds do pop out much stronger. However as with any uncooled camera, the noise is a big factor. If you are successful in reducing the noise via processing, without the camera being modified. (I noticed you are in a warm climate) then modification would be a great addition. Just remember that once it's modified it becomes pretty much 'dedicated' to astrophotography.
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Re: To Astro mod a DSLR Or Not?

#4

Post by bobharmony »


You have asked THE question, Jim. As my astrocam is also the family vacation camera, there will be no modding here. Instead at some point I will shell out for a dedicated *COOLED* astrocam, and will have the best of both worlds. I am looking forward to having much less noise to deal with. If I had to make a choice between modding a DSLR, and buying an astrocam, I would lean toward leaving the DSLR alone and going to the dedicated astrocam.

In deference to Dr. Clark, I will say that I enjoy the mix of blues and reds in my rendition of M42 in Orion, and have more trouble warming to the redder versions I see from modded cams. OTOH, I am plotting (again) on how to get enough time in on the Veil Nebula in Cygnus to properly show the wispy red tendrils mixing among the blue. So many choices, such limited capital!

Bob
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Re: To Astro mod a DSLR Or Not?

#5

Post by OhNo »


I almost started a thread on this subject yesterday. I am having a little "post buyers remorse". I have been using a non-modified DSLR which like Clark describes as letting the camera catch what the human eye sees. That said I also own a Atik Infinity. Each camera was pluses and minuses, but perform as they were intended.

The DSLR can capture images that please my eye. BUT, it takes a lot of time on target. Hence guiding and the atmosphere need to co-operate. The Atik is quick to live stack a image that would look great to the un-trained eye (opinionated eye), yet on closer inspection, there is Star bloat no matter how it is set to capture or processed. One camera is almost too sensitive and the other, not sensitive enough!

Both platforms have taught me a lot about AP (way more to learn), and when I pay real close attention, I can put together a few images I'm not ashamed to show other people.

My current issue is that I need something in between a DSLR and a Near-real-time imaging camera. Like many, funds to finance a new generation dedicated astro camera elude me. So I guess the ole platitude is mostly correct, AP is not cheap.

Another lesson learned (and even more costly) is what will you need/want next. If you go down the semi-autonomous road, a camera rotator and a auto focus seem the next logical step. Then if your going to leave your valuable set-up unattended for the night, an observatory would be in order...... It NEVER ends!!!!!!

For me setting a realistic goal is what keeps me going. What's holding me back is the ability to keep the wallet full enough to get what I would like!
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Re: To Astro mod a DSLR Or Not?

#6

Post by Juno16 »


This is great feedback from everyone! Thanks!

Just the kind of feedback that I was looking for.

I still want to do some more reading on clarkvision.com, but the coloration in his images is very pleasing to my eye.

I’m in no rush to change anything with the camera yet. I just ran across his web site before bed last night and kind of liked what he had to say.
I have little AP experience and wanted to see what more experienced members would have to say. I have learned quite a bit from members here and respect everyone’s opinions and experiences.

Thanks,
Jim
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Scopes: Explore Scientific ED102 APO, Sharpstar 61 EDPH II APO, Samyang 135 F2 (still on the Nikon).
Mount: Skywatcher HEQ5 Pro with Rowan Belt Mod
Stuff: ASI EAF Focus Motor (x2), Orion 50mm Guide Scope, ZWO 30 mm Guide Scope, ASI 220mm min, ASI 120mm mini, Stellarview 0.8 FR/FF, Sharpstar 0.8 FR/FF, Mele Overloock 3C.
Camera/Filters/Software: ASI 533 mc pro, ASI 120mm mini, Orion SSAG, IDAS LPS D-1, Optolong L-Enhance, ZWO UV/IR Cut, N.I.N.A., Green Swamp Server, PHD2, Adobe Photoshop CC, Pixinsight.
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Re: To Astro mod a DSLR Or Not?

#7

Post by dghent »


DSLRs are not great for astrophotography to begin with. By removing the IR cut filter, you're taking an already suboptimal tool that's still great for terrestrial photography and turning it into a marginally-improved tool for astrophotography but is then terrible for terrestrial. My advice to anyone who is considering modding a DSLR is that it means that it is likely time to consider a proper cooled CMOS astro cam instead. You will get vastly better results out of one, and you'll have a wider menu of sensors to choose from; perhaps ones that may be better-suited to what you main interests are. Especially if you transition to a color CMOS astro cam, you'll end up with a lighter package and one that is generally easier to power, as well.
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Re: To Astro mod a DSLR Or Not?

#8

Post by SkyHiker »


I had mine modified by LifePixel and am very happy with it. I use my DSLR only for AP. If you need it for daytime viewing, get a cheap DSLR such as my Fuji and have it modified.

Yes you will get a boat load of red in your images and some people leave it that way. I don't and have DSS fix it (or it already does it, I forgot - am a bit rusty due to circumstances). The idea is that your signal to noise is vastly improved in H alpha but the color balance needs to be fixed. DSS does that very well.

Another important advantage is that it helps finding stars with live view. This is important when framing and focusing.

When I was using it the first time on MW wide field it scared me. I ran everything through DSS to color-balance and adjust it, all images equally, then stitched it with ICE. It came out really nice.
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Re: To Astro mod a DSLR Or Not?

#9

Post by Juno16 »


dghent wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2019 9:18 pm DSLRs are not great for astrophotography to begin with. By removing the IR cut filter, you're taking an already suboptimal tool that's still great for terrestrial photography and turning it into a marginally-improved tool for astrophotography but is then terrible for terrestrial. My advice to anyone who is considering modding a DSLR is that it means that it is likely time to consider a proper cooled CMOS astro cam instead. You will get vastly better results out of one, and you'll have a wider menu of sensors to choose from; perhaps ones that may be better-suited to what you main interests are. Especially if you transition to a color CMOS astro cam, you'll end up with a lighter package and one that is generally easier to power, as well.
I really appreciated your comments and I certainly would like to have the funds set aside for an astro camera. I’m sure that the benifits would be substantial.

Being retired, my budget is somewhat restricted and I’m fine with that.

My AP goals are modest (heck, I have an AVX!) and I’m happy with my progress so far. The comment about the AVX wasn’t meant to take anything from the mount, but it’s inexpensive and does have its challenges. I knew that going in and I’m dealing with them and learning along the way.
Maybe some day an astro camera will be in the cards, but for now, unmodded or modded dslr is the most practical.
Thanks again!
Jim

Scopes: Explore Scientific ED102 APO, Sharpstar 61 EDPH II APO, Samyang 135 F2 (still on the Nikon).
Mount: Skywatcher HEQ5 Pro with Rowan Belt Mod
Stuff: ASI EAF Focus Motor (x2), Orion 50mm Guide Scope, ZWO 30 mm Guide Scope, ASI 220mm min, ASI 120mm mini, Stellarview 0.8 FR/FF, Sharpstar 0.8 FR/FF, Mele Overloock 3C.
Camera/Filters/Software: ASI 533 mc pro, ASI 120mm mini, Orion SSAG, IDAS LPS D-1, Optolong L-Enhance, ZWO UV/IR Cut, N.I.N.A., Green Swamp Server, PHD2, Adobe Photoshop CC, Pixinsight.
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Re: To Astro mod a DSLR Or Not?

#10

Post by Juno16 »


SkyHiker wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:11 pm I had mine modified by LifePixel and am very happy with it. I use my DSLR only for AP. If you need it for daytime viewing, get a cheap DSLR such as my Fuji and have it modified.

Yes you will get a boat load of red in your images and some people leave it that way. I don't and have DSS fix it (or it already does it, I forgot - am a bit rusty due to circumstances). The idea is that your signal to noise is vastly improved in H alpha but the color balance needs to be fixed. DSS does that very well.

Another important advantage is that it helps finding stars with live view. This is important when framing and focusing.

When I was using it the first time on MW wide field it scared me. I ran everything through DSS to color-balance and adjust it, all images equally, then stitched it with ICE. It came out really nice.
Hi Henk and thanks for you response! I appreciate you sharing your experiences with your modified dslr and how you deal with the abundant redness.
The improved s/n ratio in H alpha and better star acquisition are big positives.
I believe that Life Pixel charges $275 to full spectrum mod my D5300 which is within the plane of affordability.
Not rushing into it just yet though. Still feeling things out and learning.
Even at my learning level, I am having a lot of fun capturing what I have so far.
Thanks!

Jim
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Scopes: Explore Scientific ED102 APO, Sharpstar 61 EDPH II APO, Samyang 135 F2 (still on the Nikon).
Mount: Skywatcher HEQ5 Pro with Rowan Belt Mod
Stuff: ASI EAF Focus Motor (x2), Orion 50mm Guide Scope, ZWO 30 mm Guide Scope, ASI 220mm min, ASI 120mm mini, Stellarview 0.8 FR/FF, Sharpstar 0.8 FR/FF, Mele Overloock 3C.
Camera/Filters/Software: ASI 533 mc pro, ASI 120mm mini, Orion SSAG, IDAS LPS D-1, Optolong L-Enhance, ZWO UV/IR Cut, N.I.N.A., Green Swamp Server, PHD2, Adobe Photoshop CC, Pixinsight.
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Re: To Astro mod a DSLR Or Not?

#11

Post by JayTee »


Hi Jim,

It's a simple decision tree. Do you want increased Ha sensitivity? If so, then get your camera modded. All the issues brought up in the Clarkvision article can be dealt with in post-processing. Will you need a greater depth of understanding for your post-processing routine, yes. Will you get better images, yes. If you are willing to do the extra work then it seems pretty easy to me.

Cheers,
JT
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Re: To Astro mod a DSLR Or Not?

#12

Post by Juno16 »


JayTee wrote: Wed Aug 07, 2019 12:56 am Hi Jim,

It's a simple decision tree. Do you want increased Ha sensitivity? If so, then get your camera modded. All the issues brought up in the Clarkvision article can be dealt with in post-processing. Will you need a greater depth of understanding for your post-processing routine, yes. Will you get better images, yes. If you are willing to do the extra work then it seems pretty easy to me.

Cheers,
JT
Just the guidance I was looking for JT!

Thanks,
Jim
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Scopes: Explore Scientific ED102 APO, Sharpstar 61 EDPH II APO, Samyang 135 F2 (still on the Nikon).
Mount: Skywatcher HEQ5 Pro with Rowan Belt Mod
Stuff: ASI EAF Focus Motor (x2), Orion 50mm Guide Scope, ZWO 30 mm Guide Scope, ASI 220mm min, ASI 120mm mini, Stellarview 0.8 FR/FF, Sharpstar 0.8 FR/FF, Mele Overloock 3C.
Camera/Filters/Software: ASI 533 mc pro, ASI 120mm mini, Orion SSAG, IDAS LPS D-1, Optolong L-Enhance, ZWO UV/IR Cut, N.I.N.A., Green Swamp Server, PHD2, Adobe Photoshop CC, Pixinsight.
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Re: To Astro mod a DSLR Or Not?

#13

Post by Stuart »


Keep in mind that the "human eye" can only see faint fuzzies. You're not going to see color in those nebula (except maybe the Orion nebula). Because of that you absolutely must post process astroimages in order to see them. When you stretch an image, it already becomes "false" because you are emphasizing certain brightness, contrast, and colors at the expense of others.

Also, there are some modifications that you can do that allow you to continue to use your camera in daylight--you just need to do a custom white balance. And you don't even need to do that if you process your images RAW--you can fix the white balance in whatever program you're using.

But if you're a beginner in astrophotography which you write I would recommend not modifying your camera yet. Concentrate on things like image acquisition, exposure time, guiding, focusing, etc. Once you master all of that, and you find you want a little hydrogen alpha boost, then go ahead and get your camera modified, or get a separate camera body that has been pre-modded by Spencer camera or something.
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Re: To Astro mod a DSLR Or Not?

#14

Post by Juno16 »


Stuart wrote: Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:57 pm Keep in mind that the "human eye" can only see faint fuzzies. You're not going to see color in those nebula (except maybe the Orion nebula). Because of that you absolutely must post process astroimages in order to see them. When you stretch an image, it already becomes "false" because you are emphasizing certain brightness, contrast, and colors at the expense of others.

Also, there are some modifications that you can do that allow you to continue to use your camera in daylight--you just need to do a custom white balance. And you don't even need to do that if you process your images RAW--you can fix the white balance in whatever program you're using.

But if you're a beginner in astrophotography which you write I would recommend not modifying your camera yet. Concentrate on things like image acquisition, exposure time, guiding, focusing, etc. Once you master all of that, and you find you want a little hydrogen alpha boost, then go ahead and get your camera modified, or get a separate camera body that has been pre-modded by Spencer camera or something.
Thank you Stuart!

Your response is also very helpful in helping me understand the concepts discussed on clarkvision.com vs. modding the camera.
I just started guiding in January and just last month started using a full featured image capture application. Lots and lots to learn and get comfortable with. So far, all is going well and I’ve captured a few “decent” images.

I do have a Nikon D3300 that I can use for “daytime” use, so I am not limited to a multiple purpose camera.

From the very helpful comments on this thread, I am definitely leaning hard into doing the mod sometime in the future.

Thanks Stuart and everyone else for the helpful advice.

Jim
Jim

Scopes: Explore Scientific ED102 APO, Sharpstar 61 EDPH II APO, Samyang 135 F2 (still on the Nikon).
Mount: Skywatcher HEQ5 Pro with Rowan Belt Mod
Stuff: ASI EAF Focus Motor (x2), Orion 50mm Guide Scope, ZWO 30 mm Guide Scope, ASI 220mm min, ASI 120mm mini, Stellarview 0.8 FR/FF, Sharpstar 0.8 FR/FF, Mele Overloock 3C.
Camera/Filters/Software: ASI 533 mc pro, ASI 120mm mini, Orion SSAG, IDAS LPS D-1, Optolong L-Enhance, ZWO UV/IR Cut, N.I.N.A., Green Swamp Server, PHD2, Adobe Photoshop CC, Pixinsight.
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Re: To Astro mod a DSLR Or Not?

#15

Post by Gerald_db »


Great thread to read especially as my Canon 1300D is currently being modded - too late for second thoughts. Having only shot in raw for all photography since digital Canons started excess red is no issue at all. Pixinsight will easily sort also, however I am not into the big spend on a cooled astro camera yet, and the improved wavelength range and sensitivity for long exposure dso's is well worth the small amount of extra time required to balance out the colours.
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Re: To Astro mod a DSLR Or Not?

#16

Post by yobbo89 »


all i can say is that personally i have no problems doing such a mod and working with anything sensitive ie tiny ribbon cables ectt.

That being sad even if you are skilled with fine detailed work with your hands, a poorly made instruction guide can cause a very devastating mishap ,simply pulling off the wrong component in the wrong order can destroy something sensitive in the camera .

I only recommend doing such mod yourself if you have skills set working with tiny parts, out of warranty, money to replace the failed project ,and working on a reasonably detailed guide.

The extra mod really can bring out more shelf life on an old camera that may not be sensitive as others ,it's worthwhile project on an older dslr
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cameras : asi 1600mm-c/asi1600mm-c,asi120mc,prostar lp guidecam, nikkon d60, sony a7,asi 290 mm
mounts : eq6 pro/eq8/mesu 200 v2
filters : 2'' astronomik lp/badder lrgb h-a,sII,oIII,h-b,Baader Solar Continuum, chroma 3nm ha,sii,oiii,nii,rgb,lowglow,uv/ir,Thousand Oaks Solar Filter,1.25'' #47 violet,pro planet 742 ir,pro planet 807 ir,pro planet 642 bp ir.
extras : skywatcher f4 aplanatic cc, Baader MPCC MKIII Coma Corrector,Orion Field Flattener,zwo 1.25''adc.starlight maxi 2" 9x filter wheel,tele vue 2x barlow .

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Re: To Astro mod a DSLR Or Not?

#17

Post by Juno16 »


yobbo89 wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:09 am all i can say is that personally i have no problems doing such a mod and working with anything sensitive ie tiny ribbon cables ectt.

That being sad even if you are skilled with fine detailed work with your hands, a poorly made instruction guide can cause a very devastating mishap ,simply pulling off the wrong component in the wrong order can destroy something sensitive in the camera .

I only recommend doing such mod yourself if you have skills set working with tiny parts, out of warranty, money to replace the failed project ,and working on a reasonably detailed guide.

The extra mod really can bring out more shelf life on an old camera that may not be sensitive as others ,it's worthwhile project on an older dslr
Hi Rob,

Thanks for the advice and insight.

I do like working with small parts, electronics, and soldering, but, after looking at Lifepixel’s guide to modding a Nikon D5300, and considering that a clear filter for the sensor is $100, the extra $175 (total mod price is $275) is worth the money.

I guess that a D5300 is an older dslr, but I just got it used with just over 2k shutter clicks and it is still “new” to me. I plan to have it modded sometime, but I’m in no rush.

I’ve only shot one image with it (terrible skies here this summer) of M20 and was happy that it pulled out some pink coloration even unmodded.

https://flic.kr/p/2gLhmfm

I will eventually go the modded route sometime, but I am still early into the learning phase and at my current % of clear nights, it will be a long learning phase!


Thanks again,
Jim
Jim

Scopes: Explore Scientific ED102 APO, Sharpstar 61 EDPH II APO, Samyang 135 F2 (still on the Nikon).
Mount: Skywatcher HEQ5 Pro with Rowan Belt Mod
Stuff: ASI EAF Focus Motor (x2), Orion 50mm Guide Scope, ZWO 30 mm Guide Scope, ASI 220mm min, ASI 120mm mini, Stellarview 0.8 FR/FF, Sharpstar 0.8 FR/FF, Mele Overloock 3C.
Camera/Filters/Software: ASI 533 mc pro, ASI 120mm mini, Orion SSAG, IDAS LPS D-1, Optolong L-Enhance, ZWO UV/IR Cut, N.I.N.A., Green Swamp Server, PHD2, Adobe Photoshop CC, Pixinsight.
Dog and best bud: Jack
Sky: Bortle 6-7
My Astrobin: https://www.astrobin.com/users/Juno16/
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yobbo89 Australia
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Re: To Astro mod a DSLR Or Not?

#18

Post by yobbo89 »


nice image, i can see the absence of the hydrogen alpha on that target, which is the outer regions
scopes :gso/bintel f4 12"truss tube, bresser messier ar127s /skywatcher 10'' dob,meade 12'' f10 lx200 sct
cameras : asi 1600mm-c/asi1600mm-c,asi120mc,prostar lp guidecam, nikkon d60, sony a7,asi 290 mm
mounts : eq6 pro/eq8/mesu 200 v2
filters : 2'' astronomik lp/badder lrgb h-a,sII,oIII,h-b,Baader Solar Continuum, chroma 3nm ha,sii,oiii,nii,rgb,lowglow,uv/ir,Thousand Oaks Solar Filter,1.25'' #47 violet,pro planet 742 ir,pro planet 807 ir,pro planet 642 bp ir.
extras : skywatcher f4 aplanatic cc, Baader MPCC MKIII Coma Corrector,Orion Field Flattener,zwo 1.25''adc.starlight maxi 2" 9x filter wheel,tele vue 2x barlow .

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Re: To Astro mod a DSLR Or Not?

#19

Post by UlteriorModem »


I am a little late to this party but only attempt this mod if you wont be disappointed if it fails. I have seen many times folks have attempted the mod and failed.

The other option is of course to sent it out and have it modded for you. Which of course costs a lot of money and there is still no guarantee!

When it is all said and done yes you have gained some sensitivity especially in the near infrared spectrum, but it's still a dslr and long exposures will be noisy.

If it were me I would save up for a cooled ccd or cmos camera the prices have become pretty reasonable. Keep the camera for everyday use ;)
Tom

Current Equipment:
Mount: Celestron CGX-L
Scope: 130mm f7 APO
Cam: ASI071mc-pro
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Re: To Astro mod a DSLR Or Not?

#20

Post by Star Dad »


I use Star Tools in post processing and I have a Canon 70D. I try to keep the color that's extracted without modification. I have noticed that occasionally, for some reason, I get a lot of green stars. That's when I go in and change either the green or blue and red. Green stars are rare and thus a whole bunch with virtually no white, yellow, or red one is a sure sign that something in the color spectrum messed up. I had thought about modify the camera, but It's too expensive an investment - and I do a lot of daytime photography. I'm saving schekels for the ASI1294 cooled CMOS. It's lighter in weight and will become my dedicated AP camera - and one less cable to worry about.
"To be good is not enough when you dream of being great"

Orion 203mm/f4.9/1000mm, converted TASCO 114mm/f9/1000mm to steam punk, Meade 114mm/f9/1000, Coronado PST, Orion EQ-G, Ioptron Mini-Tower and iEQ30, Canon 70D, ASI120MM,ASI294MC, Ioptron SkyHunter
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