Can't get any kind of star or light via guidescope

[StarLord101]

Finally! After about 5 weeks without a clear night, I got to test out my avx and 6" newt. I have a celestron guide scope piggy backed (80mm x 600mm). I added a diagonal to the guide scope because I couldn't come to focus without it with even an eyepiece, but it worked well with it. This will be my first real attempt at guiding the mount with software. I have an Orion star shoot solar system iv camera ( https://www.telescope.com/Orion-StarSho ... /52175.uts) that I had planned on using for this purpose. I've blown my budget already, and seeing as people are even using webcams for this purpose sometimes, I figured it would be at least serviceable. Mostly due to the fact that it was specifically designed for use imaging through a telescope, where it would be dealing with vast darkness with small bright dots in the form of planets most of the time. It's not like it was designed for bright room skype meetings is my point. It was designed to work with a scope in the dark. When I have it in the guidescope,

I can rack the focus all the way in and out very slowly using the included video preview software orion amcap so I can get a live view instead of waiting for phd2 to cycle, but I can't see a damn thing. And I mean nothing! It's pitch black, not even a hint of an out of focus star. I try playing with the settings in both amcap/camera settings and phd2 trying to crank the gamma to both extremes and various places in the middle along with other settings that should increase the brightness like low light and others. Still, racking the focus all the way in and out, stopping every 1/8th turn to make sure I don't miss the focus or light, nothing! Not even a dark halo. And then I try it moving to different parts of the sky just in case I hit a freak patch of blackness, nope, still nothing. If I take the camera out and point it roughly at a street light about 20 meters away, I can see the blurry light on the preview, and I can confirm that the settings I've tried are affecting it and making the image brighter. Still nothing putting it back in the guidescope. Pointing a flashlight not directly in to the scope, but just vertically so that the inner top dew shield is lit up, and I can see light from the preview window of the camera in the guidescope. So it does see light, the settings are even maxed for brightening the image, but I can't seem to get a single star or light in the sky visible in the camera with the guidescope despite seemingly working. The camera I believe has fairly fine pixel pitch at 3.6 microns, and I also tried various resolutions in case that was the problem. I'm really at a loss what is going on here. If this wasn't a camera designed to take images from the sky, maybe I would assume it's just not sensitive enough, but this designed for that exactly. Anybody have a suggestion short of buying another camera?

[XCalRocketMan]

It sounds to me like you are not reaching focus. These cameras will sometimes not show anything until the stars start to come to focus. Not sure about the Orion, but my ASI120mc would show a gray background of noise until the stars started to become points. Then the background settled to black and the stars appeared.

Are you sure you have the backfocus correct?

[sdbodin]

First question, how long an exposure? I usually guide at 2-4 seconds exposure, but for focusing maybe as long as 10 seconds. Focus is critical, almost nothing will show until you are within a 1/4 turn of exact. And the field of view of the camera is very small, maybe point at a bright open cluster to guarantee a star is present. The moon is coming back, try the scope on that. This is always a problem, don't feel alone.

Good luck,
Steve

[StarLord101]

First question, how long an exposure? I usually guide at 2-4 seconds exposure, but for focusing maybe as long as 10 seconds. Focus is critical, almost nothing will show until you are within a 1/4 turn of exact. And the field of view of the camera is very small, maybe point at a bright open cluster to guarantee a star is present. The moon is coming back, try the scope on that. This is always a problem, don't feel alone.

Good luck,
Steve

Thanks, yeah I agree, the only other thing I could think of was exactly that, to wait and find an overly bright object like the moon or a bright planet. The only other thing I could think of is if my extension was not enough still for the camera? I don't have the original one that came, and couldn't any specs that gave it's length. I used a diagonal I borrowed from another refractor to allow it to come to focus with an eyepiece. Before that, I couldn't come to focus at all. But that's still just with a random diagonal. I have no idea if it needs a certain length of diagonal or tube to allow the camera itself to come to focus, and if the diagonal I used was just enough to allow the eyepiece focus. Does that sound possible? After literally 5+ weeks without a chance to even text out the avx, any chance I can see a bright star, I need to try and take advantage of it. As far as the exposures, I mostly cycled it in phd2 around 1-2 seconds , but also tested it with the live view with the orion AMCAP software that comes with it. Could it be I'm just not taking a long enough exposure?

[Graeme1858]

My guidescope is a Celestron 80mm. The focus has to be spot on to show stars in PHD2. If it's out I get the grey screen as Rocket Man describes. Mine came with an extension tube and it can't focus without this in place. When you point it at the street light, can you get it to focus then? If not then the star diagonal probably isn't giving you enough distance.

Regards

Graeme

[Star Dad]

"On top of that, the StarShoot AutoGuider's short inward focus requirement of only 15mm from a typical 1.25" Plossl telescope eyepiece makes it compatible with virtually any telescope."

This is a quote from the Orion website. 15mm is very small compared with my cameras which are all 55mm. I would suggest this: do a visual on the moon or bright star - ie Vega. Put it in your main scope. Get a visual using your guide scope. Get it in focus in the guide scope. Now put on the camera. You should not have to adjust much. I actually keep track of the number of small turns in and out when I'm getting focus after an outreach session, so I don't get too lost. It took me about 4 hours to get my guide scope and camera to work together. I was almost at the point of giving up when I hit the sweet spot. Also - you might want to try daylight use. Pick some far distant subject - at least 200 feet away and get it in focus. At least you'll be close when you do night time focusing on stars.

A word of warning: I bought the Orion's competitor - the Celstron NexImage 5. As far as I'm concerned it was total junk. It resides in my astronomy junk pile for some, perhaps, future use.

[StarLord101]

My guidescope is a Celestron 80mm. The focus has to be spot on to show stars in PHD2. If it's out I get the grey screen as Rocket Man describes. Mine came with an extension tube and it can't focus without this in place. When you point it at the street light, can you get it to focus then? If not then the star diagonal probably isn't giving you enough distance.

Regards

Graeme

Hmmm something I should have noticed that a few of you mentioned.... Even if not seeing stars, with all the settings cranked, I would expect to see more of a greyish screen output, but this is oddly black unless pointing at something like a streetlight. The first thing I remember is that when I first plugged it in, phd2 insisted on creating calibration profile for the camera, dark frames etc. I know that's not exactly the way they work, but is it possible it's having an effect? I haven't had a semi clear night since that last one except I may get an opening tonight! So I'm hoping for anything to help make it work.

[StarLord101]

Does anyone else have this guide scope or a similar one that could measure their extension tube and let me know?

[StarLord101]

Just an update, and sorry for the gap in time. The skies, they aren't cooperative lately. Finally got back out yesterday, sadly, moon was already behind the trees. I started from scratch again, brand new profile from the phd2 wizard, brand new dark library, using the windows generic webcam setting. Leave it at 1second exposure and default settings and start looping. Point to screen and clearly see the image blown out white, not dim or muted, so obviously picks up light. I then proceeded to turn the focus literally maybe 1/16 of a turn per adjustment, working my way through the entire focused range stopping after every turn for 3-5 secs or more to stare closely at the screen for any sign of anything. I should mention that right before this I had an eyepiece in the guidescope diagonal and confirmed multiple stars including Polaris visible and in focus with room. Result= black screen the whole time. And I do mean black looking screen, not the greyish black one can get.


Repeated same procedure with setting for low light, brightness, contrast etc turned up, including the slider in phd2 that controls screen brightness, no change. Black screen, not greyish, no noise. Same procedure again except trying 3 seconds and then 5 seconds exposure.... Still bloody nothing. Point camera without telescope at the monitor, screen blows up white. Point at street light 40m away, bright globe visible on monitor. This is now almost 2hr30 mins of being stubborn and trying to stick it out just that night not including the time spent previously. Decide to eliminate a variable and stick the camera in the main scope with multiple stars visible, try the same procedure, 1/16th at a time.... Still... Not a damn thing! Not a smudge or halo, nothing. I know focus can be very finicky from what everyone says in this situation, but really starting to seem like something is up with the camera or its not performing correctly. Or maybe my settings are wrong, but to be fair, I have tried many. And with everything cranked up, I would almost expect to start seeing a greyish black kind of picture even if the actual input was black. Like having iso cranked too high.


Normally, it would make sense to just replace the camera. But I have to be honest.... I've absolutely blown my budget for this between the avx, associated accessories and software and dslr. I need to find a diy or very cheap alternative at least temporarily if this seems to be the camera. Because fighting this issue is kind of sapping my enjoyment of wanting to bother setting up and putting in the effort for nothing to show

[JayTee]

I'm confused. You typed these two sentences and they seem to be contradictory. Am I missing something?

Point to screen and clearly see the image blown out white.

Result= black screen the whole time.

Can the camera produce an in focus daytime image through the guide scope?

JT

[sdbodin]

Yup, focus at a distant object in daytime, use whatever exposure is necessary, then leave the focus there. Then point the scope at Vega or some other bright star one or two second exposure, and mess with the camera settings to get an image. Use an imaging program like you would for the main scope and camera, just to get an image. Finally on to PHD2 and mess with those setting. One step at a time is all the info I can offer.

Steve

[Shabadoo]

Did you take the cap off it?

[KathyNS]

There is nothing wrong with the camera if it can see light. The cap is off the scope, because it sees light. So the problem is focus.

You said you could see the globe of a steet light. Was it close to focus, close enough to be recognizable as a street lamp? If so, then that is a starting point for focusing. To focus at infinity, you need to move the camera inwards.

To find the focus point, disconnect the camera from the tube, and remove all extensions. Aim at a bright target. While watching the monitor, point the camera at the scope and slowly move it in and out until the image becomes clear. That is the focal point. Measure where the camera is, and then add extensions until they position the camera at that point.

[StarLord101]

Did you take the cap off it?

wouldn't that be something lol. Sadly, I'm sure that has been the case more than once, but yes. One thing worth mentioning is when I say I point the camera out of the scope at light or object and see light, it's not a clear image. It's a bit muddled and out of focus, but I figured this is the result of using a camera specifically meant to go in a telescope. That without a lens or focus adjustment on the camera itself, it was relying on the telescope to be able to produce a clear image. It wasn't meant for use as a normal webcam or camera would. So when I point at a street light, I see the light, but it's not crisp or anything.

It's been raining here for a surprising chunk in Vancouver (what? rain in Vancouver? Crazy talk lol) for July. So haven't even been able to test the daytime, but it finally dried up. Will take the follow up advice. I know this sounds like a case of someone just oblivious to using the equipment, but I have used and setup camera before for guiding and although, yes, less forgiving than regular focus on a scope, this isn't a case of someone being oblivious to how to focus. Having said that, the only thing left is the daytime test.

[StarLord101]

Think I have this probably resolved in a way that not only was I NOT crazy lol (I actually was experiencing and not able to get image or focus but not because I just couldn't get it), but most of the advice was correct. During further testing during daylight, with and without the diagonal, I still could not get any image with the camera. A thought occurred to me. Yes... The diagonal gives me an image with an eyepiece, but not the camera. But I have no idea how long the extension tube is that's used with this guidescope normally. So I pulled out the diagonal, had the camera on live view, and started moving the camera back trying to line it up with the center of the guidescope viewing end. So at this point, there's no tube or structure holding it. That's would not work for real use, but for testing good enough. I moved it back until I had a decent amount of light and Color on screen then fiddled with the actual focus and TADA!..... I have In focus picture on screen via that camera. Now, I haven't had a chance to test it at night yet with an extension tube, but I did 3d print out a few extension tubes, and the fact that my test results seem to indicate the issue to begin with. The issue was just that I didn't have a long enough extension tube for that particular guidescope and that particular camera to back focus. The diagonal and eyepiece were giving me false data and sent me in the wrong direction. But I never ever would have managed to come to focus no matter what process I did unless I had a long enough tube. Seeing as the eyepiece and camera barely had a difference, I thought it would have been fine. Thanks everyone for the input as always