Using "Astrophotography Lab" to Determine Optimum Exposure Time

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STEVE333 United States of America
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Using "Astrophotography Lab" to Determine Optimum Exposure Time

#1

Post by STEVE333 »


Astrophotography Lab is a free program that can be used to determine the noise characteristics of your camera/telescope combination including the effects of your Light Pollution. I have a DSLR, so, this tutorial will be presented from that point of view. I use this program to determine what exposure time to use for my Light frames to ensure getting the best stacked image. The link below takes you to the site for downloading either Windows or Linux versions.

http://lars-frogner.github.io/Astrophot ... nload.html

Start the program and the Image Ananlyzer window will open and will look similar to the image below.

Image

INPUTTING CAMERA & TELESCOPE INFORMATION
1) Go to Settings (at the top)/Camera/Change camera and select your camera from the dropdown list. If your camera isn't listed, click the Add new camera button to enter your camera information manually. Selectinging the Use as default box will remember the camera information the next time the program is started.

2) Go to Settings/Telescope/Change telescope and select your telescope from the dropdown list. If your telescope isn't listed, click the Add new telescope button to enter your telescope information manually. Select the Use as default box if appropriate.

3) If you have a Barlow lens or Focal Reducer, go to Settings/Change FL modifier and enter the appropriate values for your system.

INPUTTING REQUIRED SENSOR NOISE IMAGES
You will be required to load 8 images into the program: 2 Bias, 2 Flat, 1 Saturated, 1 Light (target), 2 Dark. All of the images should be taken at the same ISO setting. In addition, the Light and Dark frames should be taken with the same exposure times. While not required, I found it convenient to gather all the images into a single folder to make loading them into the program easier.

4) Under Choose Image type to add there is a drop down list. Make sure Bias is selected.
4a) Click on the Add bias frames button and navigate to and select a Bias frame. When the frame is loaded it will be displayed in the Image Analyzer window as shown below.
4b) Repeat step (4a) for the second Bias frame.

Image

5) Under Choose Image type to add there is a drop down list. Make sure Flat is selected.
5a) Click on the Add flat frames button and navigate to and select a Flat frame. When the choice between Red or Green is presented I usually choose Green.
5b) Repeat step (4a) for the second Flat frame. No color choice will be presented for the second Flat frame.

6) Under Choose Image type to add there is a drop down list. Make sure Saturated is selected.
6a) Click on the Add saturated frame button and navigate to and select the Saturated frame. Not all of the pixels in the image need be saturated, but, at least some of the pixels must be saturated.

7) After these 5 images have been loaded, click on the Compute sensor data button and the noise characteristics of the camera will be calculated and presented in the Computed sensor data window as shown in the image below. Clicking on the Save sensor data button will save the sensor information for future use.

Image

For this discussion the most interesting number is the Read noise which is the noise added to each pixel by the camera electronics.

INPUTTING REMAINING IMAGES
8) Under Choose Image type to add there is a drop down list. Make sure Light is selected.
8a) Click on the Add light frame button and navigate to and select the Light frame.
8b) When the Light frame is displayed, Right-click in the image and click on Select mode.
8c) Use the scroll bars to find a dark region of the image (no bright stars, no stars at all if possible), using the cursor Left-click and drag to create a selection box that includes only the dark region. NOTE: The pixels inside this selection box will be used to determine the noise in the image.
8d) Right-click anywhere in the image and choose Transfer data to Image Calculator in the Pop-up window. In the next Pop-up box select Background and click on OK.
8e) Use the scroll bars to find a bright region of the image (target), using the cursor Left-click and drag to create a selection box that includes only the bright region.
8f) Right-click anywhere in the image and choose Transfer data to Image Calculator in the Pop-up window. In the next Pop-up box select Target and click on OK.

9) Under Choose Image type to add there is a drop down list. Make sure Dark is selected.
9a) Click on the Add dark frames button and navigate to and select the Dark frames (2).
9b) When the two Dark frames have been loaded, right-click in the image of either of the two Dark frames and select Transfer data to Image Calculator.

All of the images have now been loaded into the program.

ANALYZING THE IMAGE NOISE
At the top of the screen select Tool/Image Calculator. A window like the one shown below will be displayed, but, your numbers will be different. However, you should have numbers in all the same boxes as shown in the picture.

Image

10) Make sure the Use dark frame info box is checked.
10a) Click on the Calculate data button and the calculations will be presented in the two right-hand boxes (Signal and Noise as shown below.

Image

CREATING THE DESIRED GRAPH
11) Click on the Transfer data to Plotting Tool button.
11a) At the top of the window select Tool/Plotting Tool and a window like the one shown below will appear.

Image

11b) Select Single plots.
11c) Click on the Choose plot type drop-down list and choose Stack SNR vs sub exposure time.
11d) In the Imaging Parameters section enter 3 for the Total imaging time (hours). This number is not important for this discussion, but, you need to have a number here.
11e) Click the Draw graph button and the final result will be displayed on the graph as shown in the image below.

Image

The vertical axis represents IMAGE QUALITY of your stacked images and the horizontal axis is the exposure time for your Light frames. The graph shows that IMAGE QUALITY of the final stacked image improves as the EXPOSURE TIME increases. Not a surprising result, and, this is the reason longer exposures are used. However, although the improvement in IMAGE QUALITY rises quickly, beyond the "knee" of the curve the improvement with increasing EXPOSURE TIME becomes much slower and eventually flattens out. Thus, there isn't a single "best" exposure time. For my system, according to the graph, exposure times beyond about 400 sec will provide very little improvement in the final stacked image. My present choice of 540 sec seems reasonable according to the graph.

If the results don't seem logical maybe this will help. As you take longer exposures the SNR for the individual images improves. However, longer exposures means fewer total images to stack. This combination of effects is why the curve in the graph flattens out for longer exposures.

I hope this makes sense and is helpful. Now, it is time for breakfast and a second cup of coffee.

Steve
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Re: Using "Astrophotography Lab" to Determine Optimum Exposure Time

#2

Post by Juno16 »


Hi Steve,

Thanks a bunch for this tutorial. I know that it took some time to put it together and thanks for that.

I got very interesting results on the Suggested Imaging Settings. Very similar to the exposure times that I was using!

I hadn’t had a chance to use the idas lps-d1 yet. Not a clear night this year so far.

Thanks again Steve. AP Lab will be a regular part of my imaging.

Jim
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Re: Using "Astrophotography Lab" to Determine Optimum Exposure Time

#3

Post by STEVE333 »


Juno16 wrote: Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:03 am Hi Steve,

Thanks a bunch for this tutorial. I know that it took some time to put it together and thanks for that.

I got very interesting results on the Suggested Imaging Settings. Very similar to the exposure times that I was using!

I hadn’t had a chance to use the idas lps-d1 yet. Not a clear night this year so far.

Thanks again Steve. AP Lab will be a regular part of my imaging.

Jim


You're welcome Jim. These tutorials always take longer to put together than I anticipate.

Just a caution. Each different filter will have its own curve, and, where the "knee" occurs will likely be different for each one. Also, imaging from a different location with different LP will also cause the "knee" to move. One exposure time may work for several filters and/or sites, or, you may end up with different exposure times for different setups. Just FYI.

By the way, did you actually create the graph?

Steve
Steve King: Light Pollution (Bortle 5)
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Camera: ASI 1600MM Pro + EFW Filter Wheel + Chroma 3nm Siii, Ha, Oiii + ZWO LRGB Filters
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Re: Using "Astrophotography Lab" to Determine Optimum Exposure Time

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Post by Juno16 »


STEVE333 wrote: Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:31 am
Juno16 wrote: Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:03 am Hi Steve,

Thanks a bunch for this tutorial. I know that it took some time to put it together and thanks for that.

I got very interesting results on the Suggested Imaging Settings. Very similar to the exposure times that I was using!

I hadn’t had a chance to use the idas lps-d1 yet. Not a clear night this year so far.

Thanks again Steve. AP Lab will be a regular part of my imaging.

Jim


You're welcome Jim. These tutorials always take longer to put together than I anticipate.

Just a caution. Each different filter will have its own curve, and, where the "knee" occurs will likely be different for each one. Also, imaging from a different location with different LP will also cause the "knee" to move. One exposure time may work for several filters and/or sites, or, you may end up with different exposure times for different setups. Just FYI.

By the way, did you actually create the graph?

Steve


Hi Steve,

Yes, but my s/n ratio is far less than yours. You explained that many factors play into the s/n, plus I am looking at M45 nebulosity not using a filter in pretty significant lp. But yes, a good graph.

graph.JPG
Looking forward to a clear night so that I can try out the filter. Like you said, there might be a significant difference in the "knee".

I also looked at Suggested Imaging Settings. I actually did expose the lights for 150 seconds and it looks like that was a good choice. I did enter a maximum exposure time of 500 seconds (even though I wasn't going to use anything close to that) just to generate a value in the Stack SNR loss from reduction. I could not find out exactly what that value represents. I assume that it means that I lost that value in s/n because I didn't shoot at 500 seconds. Not huge at all.
imaging settings.JPG
Big difference in dynamic range using a lower iso.

Overall, this is really cool stuff! Again, thank you for helping me understand it better.

Jim
Jim

Scopes: Explore Scientific ED102 APO, Sharpstar 61 EDPH II APO, Samyang 135 F2 (still on the Nikon).
Mount: Skywatcher HEQ5 Pro with Rowan Belt Mod
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Camera/Filters/Software: ASI 533 mc pro, ASI 120mm mini, ASI 220mm mini , IDAS LPS D-1, Optolong L-Enhance, ZWO UV/IR Cut, N.I.N.A., Green Swamp Server, PHD2, Adobe Photoshop CC, Pixinsight.
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Re: Using "Astrophotography Lab" to Determine Optimum Exposure Time

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i wonder if this would work with planetary imaging
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Re: Using "Astrophotography Lab" to Determine Optimum Exposure Time

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Thanks for this Steve. I need to work this out for my location.

In my pursuit of better guiding, it was recently suggested that shorter multiple exposures are better than a longer one of equal time. I've seen that you favor the longer ones and I've tried to emulate your techniques. It's certainly easier to process 10 three minute frames than 30 one minute exposures.

Now that I can achieve modest guiding times of 3-4 minutes I am concentrating on image processing using flats, darks, etc... this fits right in with that.
Steve

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Re: Using "Astrophotography Lab" to Determine Optimum Exposure Time

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Juno16 wrote: Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:47 pm Hi Steve,

Yes, but my s/n ratio is far less than yours. You explained that many factors play into the s/n, plus I am looking at M45 nebulosity not using a filter in pretty significant lp. But yes, a good graph.

Looking forward to a clear night so that I can try out the filter. Like you said, there might be a significant difference in the "knee".

I also looked at Suggested Imaging Settings. I actually did expose the lights for 150 seconds and it looks like that was a good choice. I did enter a maximum exposure time of 500 seconds (even though I wasn't going to use anything close to that) just to generate a value in the Stack SNR loss from reduction. I could not find out exactly what that value represents. I assume that it means that I lost that value in s/n because I didn't shoot at 500 seconds. Not huge at all.

Big difference in dynamic range using a lower iso.

Overall, this is really cool stuff! Again, thank you for helping me understand it better.

Jim
Jim - Glad this is working for you. I truly believe this is the best way to determine the proper exposure time. It helps me to make sure I'm using a long enough exposure time (into the flat part of the curve). I want to stay not too far past the knee because the longer the exposure the greater the risk of saturating stars. Always tradeoffs in this business.

I wouldn't worry about the actual s/n ratio. The only thing that matters is getting to the correct exposure time. That's the best you can do.

Using the filter will reduce the Skyglow noise which will move the knee toward longer exposure times.

I'm not a fan of the program's Suggested Imaging Settings. For my system it suggested using ISO 3200 which would not help my dynamic range and would greatly oversample the signal (about 10 ADU's per electron).

It will be interesting to see how things work with your new filter.

Cheers -Steve



Mac wrote: Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:23 pm Thanks for this Steve. I need to work this out for my location.

In my pursuit of better guiding, it was recently suggested that shorter multiple exposures are better than a longer one of equal time. I've seen that you favor the longer ones and I've tried to emulate your techniques. It's certainly easier to process 10 three minute frames than 30 one minute exposures.

Now that I can achieve modest guiding times of 3-4 minutes I am concentrating on image processing using flats, darks, etc... this fits right in with that.
Hi Mac - Not sure who suggested that "shorter multiple exposures are better than a longer one of equal time", but, that just isn't true. The graph clearly shows that shorter exposures produce poorer performance. Because you can now get longer exposures because of your improved guiding (Congratulations!) I would trying to get up into the flat portion of the curve if you can. Your final images will be better.

Best of success in learning about and then using the flats, darks, etc.

Cheers - Steve



yobbo89 wrote: Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:55 pm i wonder if this would work with planetary imaging
Hi yobbo89 - I'm not familiar with how bright the planetary targets are, so, not sure if such long exposures would be appropriate. Good question.

Cheers - Steve
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Re: Using "Astrophotography Lab" to Determine Optimum Exposure Time

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I went through the process very carefully double checking all input and settings were correct. Still a dark noise of zero!

Imageapt 3 by Tom Whit, on Flickr
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Re: Using "Astrophotography Lab" to Determine Optimum Exposure Time

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UlteriorModem wrote: Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:53 pm I went through the process very carefully double checking all input and settings were correct. Still a dark noise of zero!

Imageapt 3 by Tom Whit, on Flickr
Very confusing Tom. I have been running Ver 4.1, so, I'm downloading Ver 4.2 (the newest) and I'll run my data through to see if the problem become evident.

More to come.

Steve
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Re: Using "Astrophotography Lab" to Determine Optimum Exposure Time

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Post by UlteriorModem »


All the other numbers look reasonable and it produces a nice curve flattening out at around 300 seconds. Which is what about I expected.

One thing I might mention is that the data I used was shot with a narrow 'duo' band filter and an OSC camera. I don't know if that effected anything or not.
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Re: Using "Astrophotography Lab" to Determine Optimum Exposure Time

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Post by STEVE333 »


Tom - I just downloaded ver 4.2 and it worked fine for me.

A couple of thoughts:

In step (8) of the tutorial (with the Light frame displayed on the right side of the window) make sure you perform the "Transfer data to Image Calculator" step twice (once for Background and once for Target).

In step (9) of the tutorial (with one of the Bias frames displayed on the right side of the window) make sure you perform the "Transfer data to Image Calculator" step. This only needs to be done for one of the Dark Frames!

Other than that I don't know what could be happening.

Hope this helps.

Steve
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Re: Using "Astrophotography Lab" to Determine Optimum Exposure Time

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Post by UlteriorModem »


STEVE333 wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:41 am Tom - I just downloaded ver 4.2 and it worked fine for me.
In step (9) of the tutorial (with one of the Bias frames displayed on the right side of the window) make sure you perform the "Transfer data to Image Calculator" step. This only needs to be done for one of the Dark Frames!


You meant one of the dark frames I am sure. Yes I did all that.
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Re: Using "Astrophotography Lab" to Determine Optimum Exposure Time

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UlteriorModem wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:40 am
STEVE333 wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:41 am Tom - I just downloaded ver 4.2 and it worked fine for me.
In step (9) of the tutorial (with one of the Bias frames displayed on the right side of the window) make sure you perform the "Transfer data to Image Calculator" step. This only needs to be done for one of the Dark Frames!


You meant one of the dark frames I am sure. Yes I did all that.


Yes Tom, that's what I meant. I was pretty sure you did it all correctly, just had to ask.

I'm not sure what else to do since it works on my setup. Maybe you can contact Lars and ask him. Sorry for the problems.

Steve
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Re: Using "Astrophotography Lab" to Determine Optimum Exposure Time

#14

Post by Juno16 »


Hi Steve,

How did you initially arrive at a 540 second exposure, was it based on the histogram?

Thanks,
Jim
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Camera/Filters/Software: ASI 533 mc pro, ASI 120mm mini, ASI 220mm mini , IDAS LPS D-1, Optolong L-Enhance, ZWO UV/IR Cut, N.I.N.A., Green Swamp Server, PHD2, Adobe Photoshop CC, Pixinsight.
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Re: Using "Astrophotography Lab" to Determine Optimum Exposure Time

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Post by JayTee »


This statement is confusing the heck out of me.
This "wasted time" adversely affects the final SNR because it reduces the time available for imaging.
My brain says we are measuring individual subs and I want 3 hours worth of these individual subs. What does it matter if there is 1 minute or 0 minutes in between these subs as long as I get my 3 hours worth of subs?

Help my poor brain grasp this concept. I love your work on this topic, so far. But this is the first time in all your instructions and explanations above where I may need to wrap my head in duct tape (keeping my head from exploding).

Here are my two main data screens from AP Lab
AP Lab Im Calc.jpg
AP Lab Plot Tool.jpg
Looking forward to greater understanding,
JT
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Re: Using "Astrophotography Lab" to Determine Optimum Exposure Time

#16

Post by Juno16 »


Thanks JT [mention]JayTee[/mention] ,

I was curious about the same thing. I must dither, and I can’t take very long exposures with my avx, so my dither stabilization time to exposure time is pretty high. So, I always figured that I just would have to take about 30% more time to capture my target ( or more).

Thanks,
Jim
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Re: Using "Astrophotography Lab" to Determine Optimum Exposure Time

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Post by STEVE333 »


Juno16 wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:51 am Hi Steve,

How did you initially arrive at a 540 second exposure, was it based on the histogram?

Thanks,
Jim

Yes, the histogram was my guide initially.



JayTee wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:50 pm This statement is confusing the heck out of me.
This "wasted time" adversely affects the final SNR because it reduces the time available for imaging.
My brain says we are measuring individual subs and I want 3 hours worth of these individual subs. What does it matter if there is 1 minute or 0 minutes in between these subs as long as I get my 3 hours worth of subs?

Help my poor brain grasp this concept. I love your work on this topic, so far. But this is the first time in all your instructions and explanations above where I may need to wrap my head in duct tape (keeping my head from exploding).

Here are my two main data screens from AP Lab
AP Lab Im Calc.jpg
AP Lab Plot Tool.jpg
Looking forward to greater understanding,
JT
Sorry for the confusion JT. Your understanding is absolutely correct.

This newest graph of mine is wrong! I outsmarted myself by confusing Total imaging time in the program (what we normally call Total Exposure, or, in your words "3 hours worth of these individual subs") with the elapsed clock time from the beginning of the first image till the end of the last image.

Now I wish I hadn't posted that new graph. Can you remove it? It will only confuse others as well.

Steve

Juno16 wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:17 pm Thanks JT [mention]JayTee[/mention] ,

I was curious about the same thing. I must dither, and I can’t take very long exposures with my avx, so my dither stabilization time to exposure time is pretty high. So, I always figured that I just would have to take about 30% more time to capture my target ( or more).

Thanks,
Jim
You're thinking is correct Jim. If your Wasted time (time to dither) is W and your Exposure time is E, then, compared to someone using the same Exposure as you, but, who has no Wasted time between exposures, you will have to spend [1 + W/E] times more time capturing data to get the same number of images. For example: If your Exposure time is 2 min and your dither time is 1 min, then [1 + W/E] = [1 + 1/2] = 1.5, so, you will have to spend 1.5 times longer capturing data than the person with no Wasted (dither) time.

Hope this makes sense.

Steve
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Re: Using "Astrophotography Lab" to Determine Optimum Exposure Time

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Post by bobharmony »


Steve, I guess it's all in how you look at it. I don't consider dither time as wasted as it adds a real benefit to my images in reduced random noise impact and removing the dreaded Canon walking noise. What can I say, I'm a glass half-full kind of guy.

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Re: Using "Astrophotography Lab" to Determine Optimum Exposure Time

#19

Post by STEVE333 »


bobharmony wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:24 pm Steve, I guess it's all in how you look at it. I don't consider dither time as wasted as it adds a real benefit to my images in reduced random noise impact and removing the dreaded Canon walking noise. What can I say, I'm a glass half-full kind of guy.

Bob
I completely agree Bob. Don't know what I would do without Dithering. Maybe I should have used the term "Unavoidably Detained time" rather than Wasted time? :Think:

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Re: Using "Astrophotography Lab" to Determine Optimum Exposure Time

#20

Post by bobharmony »


Thanks for putting this out there, Steve. I finally got the chance to run through the process with the Iris data I collected in September. The graph showed I am well past the knee of the curve with my 180 seconds subs. The recommended exposure settings didn't change the exposure time, but raised the ISO setting to 1600 (from the 800 I am using now). I will have to sit down and figure out what this all means now :)

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