I hope to try some experiments myself changing ISOs. But I wonder, also, how much the varying cameras themselves influence ISO vs Noise. Everyone I've read kept saying that for the Canon 70D (indeed for almost all Canons) 1600 was the sweet spot. I tried lower, but don't think I ever tried higher settings. With the ASI294MC - I have no idea how it will perform. So - atesting we will go - if it ever stops raining and being cloudy.yobbo89 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:33 pmi'm skeptical about those test from the author and in fact that everyStar Dad wrote: ↑Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:50 pm Here's an interesting article on ISO settings. Perhaps many of us (me included) are quite wrong about ISO and noise for AP. For your consideration: https://petapixel.com/2017/03/22/find-b ... nge-noise/dslr camera is different,dose he not contradict his results at the end of the article ? did i read it wrong ?
I would like to see a test of iso 3200 @ 15 sec f2,iso 1600 @ 30 sec f4 and iso 800 @ 60 sec f6 and so on.
Short exposures + LP = NOISE!
- Star Dad
- Articles: 0
- Posts: 744
- Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:05 pm
- 4
- Location: Norwich CT
- Status:
Offline
-
TSS Awards Badges
Re: Short exposures + LP = NOISE!
Orion 203mm/f4.9/1000mm, converted TASCO 114mm/f9/1000mm to steam punk, Meade 114mm/f9/1000, Coronado PST, Orion EQ-G, Ioptron Mini-Tower and iEQ30, Canon 70D, ASI120MM,ASI294MC, Ioptron SkyHunter
- Graeme1858
- Co-Administrator
- Articles: 1
- Posts: 7515
- Joined: Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:16 pm
- 4
- Location: North Kent, UK
- Status:
Offline
-
TSS Awards Badges
TSS Photo of the Day
I Broke The Forum.
Re: Short exposures + LP = NOISE!
Your images inspire me and this thread is of particular interest because I sometimes think I may also have reached the limitations of my set up, although certainly not my processing skills! In order to produce better quality images I need brighter targets or I need to move on to a guide scope setup. (Christmas is coming!) Another option I have been considering is a CLS filter, especially since the October challenge
Regards
Graeme
Celestron 9.25 f10 SCT, f6.3FR, CGX mount.
ASI1600MM Pro, ASI294MC Pro, ASI224MC
ZWO EFW, ZWO OAG, ASI220MM Mini.
APM 11x70 ED APO Binoculars.
https://www.averywayobservatory.co.uk/
- Larry 1969
- Articles: 0
- Posts: 1481
- Joined: Fri May 17, 2019 12:33 am
- 4
- Location: Pittsburgh PA USA
- Status:
Offline
-
TSS Photo of the Day
Re: Short exposures + LP = NOISE!
I'm actually set up right now on the same targets. I increased my exposures to 25 sec and it seems to be tracking well.
I cut my ISO to 800 and my histogram peaks just before the second segment.... May have to bump it back up.
I also removed the CLS-
10" Skywatcher collapsible goto dob, various EP's and a Celestron StarSense auto align.
For imaging:
Orion 8" astrograph 800mm @ F3.9
Eq6-R Pro controlled by APT via EQmod with an OTA mounted mini PC
Tele Vue Paracorr Type 2 coma corrector
Altair Hypercam 26C
- bobharmony
- Articles: 0
- Posts: 2030
- Joined: Sun May 12, 2019 1:11 pm
- 4
- Location: Connecticut, US
- Status:
Offline
-
TSS Photo of the Day
Re: Short exposures + LP = NOISE!
The left side of the histograms looks good, with some separation from the edge. The right side hitting the wall indicates you may not want to go longer (unless it is all sky glow over there). It'll be interesting to see what comes of this. I think you will be pleasantly surprised!
Bob
Software: BYE, APT, PHD2, DSS, PhotoShop CC 2020, StarTools, Cartes du Ciel, AstroTortilla
- yobbo89
- Moderator
- Articles: 0
- Posts: 2605
- Joined: Sat May 11, 2019 7:44 pm
- 4
- Location: australia qld brisbane
- Status:
Offline
-
TSS Photo of the Day
Re: Short exposures + LP = NOISE!
cameras : asi 1600mm-c/asi1600mm-c,asi120mc,prostar lp guidecam, nikkon d60, sony a7,asi 290 mm
mounts : eq6 pro/eq8/mesu 200 v2
filters : 2'' astronomik lp/badder lrgb h-a,sII,oIII,h-b,Baader Solar Continuum, chroma 3nm ha,sii,oiii,nii,rgb,lowglow,uv/ir,Thousand Oaks Solar Filter,1.25'' #47 violet,pro planet 742 ir,pro planet 807 ir,pro planet 642 bp ir.
extras : skywatcher f4 aplanatic cc, Baader MPCC MKIII Coma Corrector,Orion Field Flattener,zwo 1.25''adc.starlight maxi 2" 9x filter wheel,tele vue 2x barlow .
- Larry 1969
- Articles: 0
- Posts: 1481
- Joined: Fri May 17, 2019 12:33 am
- 4
- Location: Pittsburgh PA USA
- Status:
Offline
-
TSS Photo of the Day
Re: Short exposures + LP = NOISE!
Thank you for the kind words. I'm anxious to step up my game as well but not until I've exhausted all of my possibilities with my current set up.Graeme1858 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:31 pm Larry
Your images inspire me and this thread is of particular interest because I sometimes think I may also have reached the limitations of my set up, although certainly not my processing skills! In order to produce better quality images I need brighter targets or I need to move on to a guide scope setup. (Christmas is coming!) Another option I have been considering is a CLS filter, especially since the October challenge NGC 253 only rises to 13.5° at the meridian at my latitude which puts it right into the dome of light pollution produced by Gillingham, Chatham and Rochester to my south. My concern is that any filtering would reduce the image photons collected and I'm already at the limit of exposure time and iso. As Bob says above, have you tried imaging without the CLS filter? Would I see an improvement if I got one or just more noise?
Regards
Graeme
I think I enjoy imaging with a
Larry
10" Skywatcher collapsible goto dob, various EP's and a Celestron StarSense auto align.
For imaging:
Orion 8" astrograph 800mm @ F3.9
Eq6-R Pro controlled by APT via EQmod with an OTA mounted mini PC
Tele Vue Paracorr Type 2 coma corrector
Altair Hypercam 26C
- Larry 1969
- Articles: 0
- Posts: 1481
- Joined: Fri May 17, 2019 12:33 am
- 4
- Location: Pittsburgh PA USA
- Status:
Offline
-
TSS Photo of the Day
Re: Short exposures + LP = NOISE!
I wish I could send you some nice weather Bob.bobharmony wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:27 pm First, I'm jealous you are able to get out, could you send some of that my way? Second, experimenting is a good thing. I read recently that there are a lot of questions being asked on these forums, but actually trying things out teaches as much, if nit more, than looking for the "expert" to give the answer. I can say this, because it is something I am guilty of quite regularly.
The left side of the histograms looks good, with some separation from the edge. The right side hitting the wall indicates you may not want to go longer (unless it is all sky glow over there). It'll be interesting to see what comes of this. I think you will be pleasantly surprised!
Bob
I totally agree about experimenting but since the weather plays such a big role in what we do the thought of a wasted night just doesn't sit well with me.
I've come to the conclusion that I really enjoy setting up and taking pictures and, as long as the weather holds out, I plan to make each session a learning experience.
As far as the histogram is concerned, I was battling an approximate 80% moon with nothing but a big piece of cardboard propped up against my scope to keep the light out. (Sky glow was horrible).
I plan to stack these images with the same settings in
Of course I will attach the results.
TRhanks again!
Larry
10" Skywatcher collapsible goto dob, various EP's and a Celestron StarSense auto align.
For imaging:
Orion 8" astrograph 800mm @ F3.9
Eq6-R Pro controlled by APT via EQmod with an OTA mounted mini PC
Tele Vue Paracorr Type 2 coma corrector
Altair Hypercam 26C
- Larry 1969
- Articles: 0
- Posts: 1481
- Joined: Fri May 17, 2019 12:33 am
- 4
- Location: Pittsburgh PA USA
- Status:
Offline
-
TSS Photo of the Day
Re: Short exposures + LP = NOISE!
The histogram in
Here's my new image with no filter, slightly longer exposure and lower (800) ISO and a pic of the histogram right out of
Now I'm going to re-stack everything using the recommended settings.
One more quick question. Should I import ALL the raw data into
Thanks again!
Larry
10" Skywatcher collapsible goto dob, various EP's and a Celestron StarSense auto align.
For imaging:
Orion 8" astrograph 800mm @ F3.9
Eq6-R Pro controlled by APT via EQmod with an OTA mounted mini PC
Tele Vue Paracorr Type 2 coma corrector
Altair Hypercam 26C
- Larry 1969
- Articles: 0
- Posts: 1481
- Joined: Fri May 17, 2019 12:33 am
- 4
- Location: Pittsburgh PA USA
- Status:
Offline
-
TSS Photo of the Day
Re: Short exposures + LP = NOISE!
I like the detail but there is a TON of
Maybe it'll be easier once I adjust the settings in
Larry
10" Skywatcher collapsible goto dob, various EP's and a Celestron StarSense auto align.
For imaging:
Orion 8" astrograph 800mm @ F3.9
Eq6-R Pro controlled by APT via EQmod with an OTA mounted mini PC
Tele Vue Paracorr Type 2 coma corrector
Altair Hypercam 26C
- bobharmony
- Articles: 0
- Posts: 2030
- Joined: Sun May 12, 2019 1:11 pm
- 4
- Location: Connecticut, US
- Status:
Offline
-
TSS Photo of the Day
Re: Short exposures + LP = NOISE!
That brown background and the histogram from
I'm not quite clear on what you are using for processing. Your original post references
I hear you about using clear time for experimentation - it seem a shame to throw away clear hours for anything other than imaging, and I have a hard time doing that too. The down side is that it makes it hard to find a way to improve image capture if we don't try new things. No free lunch
Bob
Software: BYE, APT, PHD2, DSS, PhotoShop CC 2020, StarTools, Cartes du Ciel, AstroTortilla
- Larry 1969
- Articles: 0
- Posts: 1481
- Joined: Fri May 17, 2019 12:33 am
- 4
- Location: Pittsburgh PA USA
- Status:
Offline
-
TSS Photo of the Day
Re: Short exposures + LP = NOISE!
I think the Moon was my biggest enemy that particular night. It was about 80% and high in the sky....
I'm wondering if I should use my CLS-
Sorry about the processing confusion. I have
I'm going to apply the settings you suggested to
I'm also curious about combining all the images into one (each object of course).
How should I approach that? Just load all 350 or so images into
Can I stack each nights images separately and then stack those two? I really have no idea how that works.....
As far as the "free ride" goes, I have an idea. I plan to get a nice mount some day. Maybe an EQ6-R Pro and an 8"
I would then get a nice lens for my Canon and attach it to my scope as well and do a little wide field while getting up-close and personal with the
Larry
10" Skywatcher collapsible goto dob, various EP's and a Celestron StarSense auto align.
For imaging:
Orion 8" astrograph 800mm @ F3.9
Eq6-R Pro controlled by APT via EQmod with an OTA mounted mini PC
Tele Vue Paracorr Type 2 coma corrector
Altair Hypercam 26C
- Hankmeister3
- In Memory
- Articles: 0
- Posts: 1497
- Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:20 am
- 4
- Location: Illinois, USA
- Status:
Offline
-
TSS Photo of the Day
Re: Short exposures + LP = NOISE!
Thanks StarDad. The ISO treatment in the link is certainly counter-intuitive. I'm going to have to ponder that analysis.Star Dad wrote: ↑Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:50 pm Here's an interesting article on ISO settings. Perhaps many of us (me included) are quite wrong about ISO and noise for AP. For your consideration: https://petapixel.com/2017/03/22/find-b ... nge-noise/
Eyepieces: Set of 7 Baader Hyperion eyepieces, 3 Meade 5000 glass handgrenades; 1970s era Japanese manufactured Meade 12.5mm Orthoscopic, and too many other eclectic eyepieces to list
Mounts: Skywatcher EQ6-R Pro mount; Orion Atlas EQ-G mount
Post-production Software: Not good enough … oh, okay ... Canon's proprietary CanoScan ArcSoft 9000F photoshop suite
- JayTee
- Articles: 2
- Posts: 5651
- Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2019 3:23 am
- 5
- Location: Idaho, USA
- Status:
Offline
-
TSS Awards Badges
TSS Photo of the Day
Re: Short exposures + LP = NOISE!
Just my two cents worth,
JT
∞ AP Scopes: #1: TPO 6" f/9 RC #2: ES 102 f/7 APO #3: ES 80mm f/6 APO
∞ G&G Scopes: #1: Meade 102mm f/7.8 #2: Bresser 102mm f/4.5
∞ Guide Scopes: 70 & 80mm fracs -- The El Cheapo Bros.
∞ Mounts: iOptron CEM70AG, SW EQ6R, Celestron AVX, SLT & GT (Alt-Az), Meade DS2000
∞ Cameras: #1: ZWO ASI294MC Pro #2: 662MC #3: 120MC, Canon T3i, Orion SSAG, WYZE Cam3
∞ Binos: 10X50,11X70,15X70, 25X100 ∞ AP Gear: ZWO EAF and mini EFW and the Optolong L-eXteme filter
∞ EPs: ES 2": 21mm 100° & 30mm 82° Pentax XW: 7, 10, 14, & 20mm 70°
Searching the skies since 1966. "I never met a scope I didn't want to keep."
- bobharmony
- Articles: 0
- Posts: 2030
- Joined: Sun May 12, 2019 1:11 pm
- 4
- Location: Connecticut, US
- Status:
Offline
-
TSS Photo of the Day
Re: Short exposures + LP = NOISE!
LarryLarry 1969 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 12, 2019 4:12 pm I'm also curious about combining all the images into one (each object of course).
How should I approach that? Just load all 350 or so images into DSS with all the darks and bias frames?
Can I stack each nights images separately and then stack those two? I really have no idea how that works.....
As far as the "free ride" goes, I have an idea. I plan to get a nice mount some day. Maybe an EQ6-R Pro and an 8" RC scope with a dedicated camera.
I would then get a nice lens for my Canon and attach it to my scope as well and do a little wide field while getting up-close and personal with the RC!
I believe anything you put in the initial tab will be used in each of the stacks, so I usually put the master bias frame in there. Subsequent tabs get the lights, darks, and flats for each nights session.
I'm not sure how well lights captured with a filter will combine with those done without a filter, as I don't use one. But it is worth giving it a try to see what kind of result you get.
Bob
Software: BYE, APT, PHD2, DSS, PhotoShop CC 2020, StarTools, Cartes du Ciel, AstroTortilla
- SkyHiker
- Articles: 0
- Posts: 2293
- Joined: Sat May 11, 2019 8:40 pm
- 4
- Location: Santa Barbara, CA
- Status:
Offline
-
TSS Photo of the Day
TSS Awards Badges
Re: Short exposures + LP = NOISE!
JT I think you don't give the article enough credit. Please give the article another read because IMHO you are wrong on all counts.JayTee wrote: ↑Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:28 pm Take the information in that article with a grain of salt. There are some basic assumptions he makes which I completely disagree with. 1) He talks about using the aperture/exposure priority setting and not the manual setting for long exposures. 2) He arbitrarily sets the normalize point at ISO 3200 for Canon cameras and we all know that 3200 and above are noisy . 3) He doesn't fully address the differences in the sensors used by the different camera manufacturers, for example, Canons normally use a higher ISO and are noisier than Nikons who use a lower ISO.
Just my two cents worth,
JT
1) For the tests he says use manual
2) He clearly explains why he goes for 3200 ISO with Canon , and no, ISO 3200 and above are not noisier - only if you over expose
3) He explains the principles behind sensor choice and uses several examples just not Nikon.
As you know I have Fuji X-a1 that is probably not too different from the Fuji X-T1 in ghe article, and my experience is that ISO 6400 works quite well. You must have to limit the exposure of course,
The author makes a very good point that goes against most opinions here, but he is right.
- Larry 1969
- Articles: 0
- Posts: 1481
- Joined: Fri May 17, 2019 12:33 am
- 4
- Location: Pittsburgh PA USA
- Status:
Offline
-
TSS Photo of the Day
Re: Short exposures + LP = NOISE!
I believe I disabled all enhancements in
I then loaded a master dark and master bias from each session. I stacked the best 80% and the result is unrecognizable!
I took a pic of the screen. First the histogram out of
It's clear something went terribly wrong.....
Larry
10" Skywatcher collapsible goto dob, various EP's and a Celestron StarSense auto align.
For imaging:
Orion 8" astrograph 800mm @ F3.9
Eq6-R Pro controlled by APT via EQmod with an OTA mounted mini PC
Tele Vue Paracorr Type 2 coma corrector
Altair Hypercam 26C
- Larry 1969
- Articles: 0
- Posts: 1481
- Joined: Fri May 17, 2019 12:33 am
- 4
- Location: Pittsburgh PA USA
- Status:
Offline
-
TSS Photo of the Day
Re: Short exposures + LP = NOISE!
Working on it now...... :sigh:
Larry
10" Skywatcher collapsible goto dob, various EP's and a Celestron StarSense auto align.
For imaging:
Orion 8" astrograph 800mm @ F3.9
Eq6-R Pro controlled by APT via EQmod with an OTA mounted mini PC
Tele Vue Paracorr Type 2 coma corrector
Altair Hypercam 26C
- Larry 1969
- Articles: 0
- Posts: 1481
- Joined: Fri May 17, 2019 12:33 am
- 4
- Location: Pittsburgh PA USA
- Status:
Offline
-
TSS Photo of the Day
Re: Short exposures + LP = NOISE!
I'm having trouble figuring out what could have gone wrong......
The histogram looks strange and I can't even recognize the picture after stacking....
Larry
10" Skywatcher collapsible goto dob, various EP's and a Celestron StarSense auto align.
For imaging:
Orion 8" astrograph 800mm @ F3.9
Eq6-R Pro controlled by APT via EQmod with an OTA mounted mini PC
Tele Vue Paracorr Type 2 coma corrector
Altair Hypercam 26C
- SkyHiker
- Articles: 0
- Posts: 2293
- Joined: Sat May 11, 2019 8:40 pm
- 4
- Location: Santa Barbara, CA
- Status:
Offline
-
TSS Photo of the Day
TSS Awards Badges
Re: Short exposures + LP = NOISE!
For editing inLarry 1969 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:54 pm When I try to stack my images from each session separately it's still not working.
I'm having trouble figuring out what could have gone wrong......
The histogram looks strange and I can't even recognize the picture after stacking....
Larry
Broaden the
Move the 3 curves on top of each other after you made them the same width and height, as close to the left as you can get
Create an S shaped luminosity that curves up near the end of the peak - yours doesn't do that, it's too far to the right
Crank up the saturation to 25 or 30 %
- Larry 1969
- Articles: 0
- Posts: 1481
- Joined: Fri May 17, 2019 12:33 am
- 4
- Location: Pittsburgh PA USA
- Status:
Offline
-
TSS Photo of the Day
Re: Short exposures + LP = NOISE!
I've stacked these images before but now I can't. It's not working.
I'll post my settings and maybe someone can let me know where the error is?
Larry
10" Skywatcher collapsible goto dob, various EP's and a Celestron StarSense auto align.
For imaging:
Orion 8" astrograph 800mm @ F3.9
Eq6-R Pro controlled by APT via EQmod with an OTA mounted mini PC
Tele Vue Paracorr Type 2 coma corrector
Altair Hypercam 26C
Create an account or sign in to join the discussion
You need to be a member in order to post a reply
Create an account
Not a member? register to join our community
Members can start their own topics & subscribe to topics
It’s free and only takes a minute