Short exposures + LP = NOISE!

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Star Dad United States of America
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Re: Short exposures + LP = NOISE!

#21

Post by Star Dad »


yobbo89 wrote: Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:33 pm
Star Dad wrote: Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:50 pm Here's an interesting article on ISO settings. Perhaps many of us (me included) are quite wrong about ISO and noise for AP. For your consideration: https://petapixel.com/2017/03/22/find-b ... nge-noise/
i'm skeptical about those test from the author and in fact that every dslr camera is different,dose he not contradict his results at the end of the article ? did i read it wrong ?

I would like to see a test of iso 3200 @ 15 sec f2,iso 1600 @ 30 sec f4 and iso 800 @ 60 sec f6 and so on.
I hope to try some experiments myself changing ISOs. But I wonder, also, how much the varying cameras themselves influence ISO vs Noise. Everyone I've read kept saying that for the Canon 70D (indeed for almost all Canons) 1600 was the sweet spot. I tried lower, but don't think I ever tried higher settings. With the ASI294MC - I have no idea how it will perform. So - atesting we will go - if it ever stops raining and being cloudy.
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Re: Short exposures + LP = NOISE!

#22

Post by Graeme1858 »


Larry

Your images inspire me and this thread is of particular interest because I sometimes think I may also have reached the limitations of my set up, although certainly not my processing skills! In order to produce better quality images I need brighter targets or I need to move on to a guide scope setup. (Christmas is coming!) Another option I have been considering is a CLS filter, especially since the October challenge NGC 253 only rises to 13.5° at the meridian at my latitude which puts it right into the dome of light pollution produced by Gillingham, Chatham and Rochester to my south. My concern is that any filtering would reduce the image photons collected and I'm already at the limit of exposure time and iso. As Bob says above, have you tried imaging without the CLS filter? Would I see an improvement if I got one or just more noise?

Regards

Graeme
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Re: Short exposures + LP = NOISE!

#23

Post by Larry 1969 »


Thanks so much for the replies and suggestions!
I'm actually set up right now on the same targets. I increased my exposures to 25 sec and it seems to be tracking well.
I cut my ISO to 800 and my histogram peaks just before the second segment.... May have to bump it back up.
I also removed the CLS-CCD filter. I probably made too many changes at once but I'm excited!
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Re: Short exposures + LP = NOISE!

#24

Post by bobharmony »


First, I'm jealous you are able to get out, could you send some of that my way? Second, experimenting is a good thing. I read recently that there are a lot of questions being asked on these forums, but actually trying things out teaches as much, if nit more, than looking for the "expert" to give the answer. I can say this, because it is something I am guilty of quite regularly.

The left side of the histograms looks good, with some separation from the edge. The right side hitting the wall indicates you may not want to go longer (unless it is all sky glow over there). It'll be interesting to see what comes of this. I think you will be pleasantly surprised!

Bob
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Re: Short exposures + LP = NOISE!

#25

Post by yobbo89 »


yep, what bob summed up!, pretty much near/in the ball park on the histogram.
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Re: Short exposures + LP = NOISE!

#26

Post by Larry 1969 »


Graeme1858 wrote: Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:31 pm Larry

Your images inspire me and this thread is of particular interest because I sometimes think I may also have reached the limitations of my set up, although certainly not my processing skills! In order to produce better quality images I need brighter targets or I need to move on to a guide scope setup. (Christmas is coming!) Another option I have been considering is a CLS filter, especially since the October challenge NGC 253 only rises to 13.5° at the meridian at my latitude which puts it right into the dome of light pollution produced by Gillingham, Chatham and Rochester to my south. My concern is that any filtering would reduce the image photons collected and I'm already at the limit of exposure time and iso. As Bob says above, have you tried imaging without the CLS filter? Would I see an improvement if I got one or just more noise?

Regards

Graeme
Thank you for the kind words. I'm anxious to step up my game as well but not until I've exhausted all of my possibilities with my current set up.
I think I enjoy imaging with a dob mainly because a lot of people say it can't be done. That's just me I suppose.......

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Re: Short exposures + LP = NOISE!

#27

Post by Larry 1969 »


bobharmony wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:27 pm First, I'm jealous you are able to get out, could you send some of that my way? Second, experimenting is a good thing. I read recently that there are a lot of questions being asked on these forums, but actually trying things out teaches as much, if nit more, than looking for the "expert" to give the answer. I can say this, because it is something I am guilty of quite regularly.

The left side of the histograms looks good, with some separation from the edge. The right side hitting the wall indicates you may not want to go longer (unless it is all sky glow over there). It'll be interesting to see what comes of this. I think you will be pleasantly surprised!

Bob
I wish I could send you some nice weather Bob.
I totally agree about experimenting but since the weather plays such a big role in what we do the thought of a wasted night just doesn't sit well with me.
I've come to the conclusion that I really enjoy setting up and taking pictures and, as long as the weather holds out, I plan to make each session a learning experience.

As far as the histogram is concerned, I was battling an approximate 80% moon with nothing but a big piece of cardboard propped up against my scope to keep the light out. (Sky glow was horrible).

I plan to stack these images with the same settings in DSS as I used for the previous images just for comparisons sake. Then I'll re-stack all of it with the recommended settings.

Of course I will attach the results.

TRhanks again!

Larry
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Re: Short exposures + LP = NOISE!

#28

Post by Larry 1969 »


OK. I stacked my images of NGC 7331 just like I did the first time. I made no changes in DSS.
The histogram in DSS was much different. My stacked image was light colored whereas previously my images were all very dark requiring me to link settings and drag it to the right.
Here's my new image with no filter, slightly longer exposure and lower (800) ISO and a pic of the histogram right out of DSS.

Now I'm going to re-stack everything using the recommended settings.

One more quick question. Should I import ALL the raw data into DSS and stack it like that or do each one separately and stack the two resulting pics?

Thanks again!

Larry
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Re: Short exposures + LP = NOISE!

#29

Post by Larry 1969 »


Here's a quick M74. Stacked and processed the same as above.
I like the detail but there is a TON of LP and glow. I'm not sure how to process it out of the image.
Maybe it'll be easier once I adjust the settings in DSS?

Larry
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m74 2.png
For visual:
10" Skywatcher collapsible goto dob, various EP's and a Celestron StarSense auto align.

For imaging:
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Re: Short exposures + LP = NOISE!

#30

Post by bobharmony »


Larry - those new images are a big improvement over the originals. You are coming along nicely.

That brown background and the histogram from DSS look very familiar to me. That is generally what my stacked result looks like, with the red spike a bit right of the green and blue. LP is a lovely thing - NOT!

I'm not quite clear on what you are using for processing. Your original post references StarTools, and this latest one talks about using the DSS tools. If you are using StarTools, I would recommend not doing any processing in DSS. StarTools seems to be better for me if I feed it the stacked image without any tweaks.

I hear you about using clear time for experimentation - it seem a shame to throw away clear hours for anything other than imaging, and I have a hard time doing that too. The down side is that it makes it hard to find a way to improve image capture if we don't try new things. No free lunch :)

Bob
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Re: Short exposures + LP = NOISE!

#31

Post by Larry 1969 »


Thanks Bob!

I think the Moon was my biggest enemy that particular night. It was about 80% and high in the sky....
I'm wondering if I should use my CLS-CCD filter on evenings like that? I also think I'm going to get an I/R filter to try.

Sorry about the processing confusion. I have DSS set to save the image as stacked in a fits file. I used to just stretch the histogram in order to see what I got since the stacked image was so dark.
I'm going to apply the settings you suggested to DSS and give them all another shot. It's raining here anyway.

I'm also curious about combining all the images into one (each object of course).
How should I approach that? Just load all 350 or so images into DSS with all the darks and bias frames?
Can I stack each nights images separately and then stack those two? I really have no idea how that works.....

As far as the "free ride" goes, I have an idea. I plan to get a nice mount some day. Maybe an EQ6-R Pro and an 8" RC scope with a dedicated camera.
I would then get a nice lens for my Canon and attach it to my scope as well and do a little wide field while getting up-close and personal with the RC! 8-)

Larry
For visual:
10" Skywatcher collapsible goto dob, various EP's and a Celestron StarSense auto align.

For imaging:
Orion 8" astrograph 800mm @ F3.9
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Re: Short exposures + LP = NOISE!

#32

Post by Hankmeister3 »


Star Dad wrote: Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:50 pm Here's an interesting article on ISO settings. Perhaps many of us (me included) are quite wrong about ISO and noise for AP. For your consideration: https://petapixel.com/2017/03/22/find-b ... nge-noise/
Thanks StarDad. The ISO treatment in the link is certainly counter-intuitive. I'm going to have to ponder that analysis.
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Re: Short exposures + LP = NOISE!

#33

Post by JayTee »


Take the information in that article with a grain of salt. There are some basic assumptions he makes which I completely disagree with. 1) He talks about using the aperture/exposure priority setting and not the manual setting for long exposures. 2) He arbitrarily sets the normalize point at ISO 3200 for Canon cameras and we all know that 3200 and above are noisy . 3) He doesn't fully address the differences in the sensors used by the different camera manufacturers, for example, Canons normally use a higher ISO and are noisier than Nikons who use a lower ISO.

Just my two cents worth,
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Re: Short exposures + LP = NOISE!

#34

Post by bobharmony »


Larry 1969 wrote: Sat Oct 12, 2019 4:12 pm I'm also curious about combining all the images into one (each object of course).
How should I approach that? Just load all 350 or so images into DSS with all the darks and bias frames?
Can I stack each nights images separately and then stack those two? I really have no idea how that works.....

As far as the "free ride" goes, I have an idea. I plan to get a nice mount some day. Maybe an EQ6-R Pro and an 8" RC scope with a dedicated camera.
I would then get a nice lens for my Canon and attach it to my scope as well and do a little wide field while getting up-close and personal with the RC! 8-)
Larry

DSS will allow you to process multiple nights worth of data separately, then combine the stacks all in the same pass. Look at the bottom of the area where you have added the various files for a stack. You will see there is a tab there. I am going from old memory here (my processing PC is busy collecting darks at the moment). I believe if you right-click on the tab you will get the option to add another tab, where you can select files for a second night. The same will allow you to add a third, and so on. The most I have ever done in one pass is 4 nights worth of M33 data.

I believe anything you put in the initial tab will be used in each of the stacks, so I usually put the master bias frame in there. Subsequent tabs get the lights, darks, and flats for each nights session.

I'm not sure how well lights captured with a filter will combine with those done without a filter, as I don't use one. But it is worth giving it a try to see what kind of result you get.

Bob
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Re: Short exposures + LP = NOISE!

#35

Post by SkyHiker »


JayTee wrote: Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:28 pm Take the information in that article with a grain of salt. There are some basic assumptions he makes which I completely disagree with. 1) He talks about using the aperture/exposure priority setting and not the manual setting for long exposures. 2) He arbitrarily sets the normalize point at ISO 3200 for Canon cameras and we all know that 3200 and above are noisy . 3) He doesn't fully address the differences in the sensors used by the different camera manufacturers, for example, Canons normally use a higher ISO and are noisier than Nikons who use a lower ISO.

Just my two cents worth,
JT
JT I think you don't give the article enough credit. Please give the article another read because IMHO you are wrong on all counts.

1) For the tests he says use manual
2) He clearly explains why he goes for 3200 ISO with Canon , and no, ISO 3200 and above are not noisier - only if you over expose
3) He explains the principles behind sensor choice and uses several examples just not Nikon.

As you know I have Fuji X-a1 that is probably not too different from the Fuji X-T1 in ghe article, and my experience is that ISO 6400 works quite well. You must have to limit the exposure of course, DSS will easily take care of the extra subs.

The author makes a very good point that goes against most opinions here, but he is right.
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Re: Short exposures + LP = NOISE!

#36

Post by Larry 1969 »


First I read the link regarding ISO and I must say, I'm not qualified to comment. I think the proof is in the pudding. I'll be experimenting for sure.

I believe I disabled all enhancements in DSS. I did have the "set black to zero" checked. I was also looking into "batch stacking" but couldn't seem to get it to work so I just loaded all of my light frames from both sessions.
I then loaded a master dark and master bias from each session. I stacked the best 80% and the result is unrecognizable! :o
I took a pic of the screen. First the histogram out of DSS and second a screenshot AFTER auto dev in StarTools.
It's clear something went terribly wrong..... :P

Larry
Attachments
KIMG0138.jpg
KIMG0139.jpg
For visual:
10" Skywatcher collapsible goto dob, various EP's and a Celestron StarSense auto align.

For imaging:
Orion 8" astrograph 800mm @ F3.9
Eq6-R Pro controlled by APT via EQmod with an OTA mounted mini PC
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Re: Short exposures + LP = NOISE!

#37

Post by Larry 1969 »


OK. It's me..... I screwed up some setting in DSS.
Working on it now...... :sigh:

Larry
For visual:
10" Skywatcher collapsible goto dob, various EP's and a Celestron StarSense auto align.

For imaging:
Orion 8" astrograph 800mm @ F3.9
Eq6-R Pro controlled by APT via EQmod with an OTA mounted mini PC
Tele Vue Paracorr Type 2 coma corrector
Altair Hypercam 26C
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Re: Short exposures + LP = NOISE!

#38

Post by Larry 1969 »


When I try to stack my images from each session separately it's still not working.
I'm having trouble figuring out what could have gone wrong......
The histogram looks strange and I can't even recognize the picture after stacking....

Larry
Attachments
KIMG0140.jpg
For visual:
10" Skywatcher collapsible goto dob, various EP's and a Celestron StarSense auto align.

For imaging:
Orion 8" astrograph 800mm @ F3.9
Eq6-R Pro controlled by APT via EQmod with an OTA mounted mini PC
Tele Vue Paracorr Type 2 coma corrector
Altair Hypercam 26C
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Re: Short exposures + LP = NOISE!

#39

Post by SkyHiker »


Larry 1969 wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:54 pm When I try to stack my images from each session separately it's still not working.
I'm having trouble figuring out what could have gone wrong......
The histogram looks strange and I can't even recognize the picture after stacking....

Larry
For editing in DSS:
Broaden the RGB curves as much as possible using the leftmost slider
Move the 3 curves on top of each other after you made them the same width and height, as close to the left as you can get
Create an S shaped luminosity that curves up near the end of the peak - yours doesn't do that, it's too far to the right
Crank up the saturation to 25 or 30 %
... Henk. :D Telescopes: GSO 12" Astrograph, "Comet Hunter" MN152, ES ED127CF, ES ED80, WO Redcat51, Z12, AT6RC, Celestron Skymaster 20x80, Mounts and tripod: Losmandy G11S with OnStep, AVX, Tiltall, Cameras: ASI2600MC, ASI2600MM, ASI120 mini, Fuji X-a1, Canon XSi, T6, ELPH 100HS, DIY: OnStep controller, Pi4b/power rig, Afocal adapter, Foldable Dob base, Az/Alt Dob setting circles, Accessories: ZWO 36 mm filter wheel, TV Paracorr 2, Baader MPCC Mk III, ES FF, SSAG, QHY OAG-M, EAF electronic focuser, Plossls, Barlows, Telrad, Laser collimators (Seben LK1, Z12, Howie Glatter), Cheshire, 2 Orion RACIs 8x50, Software: KStars-Ekos, DSS, PHD2, Nebulosity, Photo Gallery, Gimp, CHDK, Computers:Pi4b, 2x running KStars/Ekos, Toshiba Satellite 17", Website:Henk's astro images
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Larry 1969 United States of America
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TSS Photo of the Day

Re: Short exposures + LP = NOISE!

#40

Post by Larry 1969 »


Thanks Henk but I'm sure I have something wrong in DSS.
I've stacked these images before but now I can't. It's not working.
I'll post my settings and maybe someone can let me know where the error is?

Larry
For visual:
10" Skywatcher collapsible goto dob, various EP's and a Celestron StarSense auto align.

For imaging:
Orion 8" astrograph 800mm @ F3.9
Eq6-R Pro controlled by APT via EQmod with an OTA mounted mini PC
Tele Vue Paracorr Type 2 coma corrector
Altair Hypercam 26C
Image
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