HDR Processing - What software do you use and how many pics

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chris_g United States of America
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HDR Processing - What software do you use and how many pics

#1

Post by chris_g »


Hello all,

I have a project in mind that I believe would be best suited using HDR technique. I know how to set up the imaging run using APT thanks to a thread I found here. I was wanting to know about stacking and post processing. I am assuming that you would stack each set of exposures separately, with their own respective calibration frames then combine the resulting images in whatever application you're using. I'm currently using PS as I have a vested interest in it now other than the monthly fee and I learned how to combine the HDR exposures in it. Is there any other software out there that does it better than PS that is either free or a reasonable cost?

How many different sets of exposures is really needed? My current project is the Seven Sisters, I want to capture the reflection nebula around them as well. I believe the 120 second run I have is good for the stars themselves but it does very little of the nebulas, How much longer of an exposure would I want to capture the reflection nebula and how many different exposure settings would I want?

Thanks for any and all input!

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Re: HDR Processing - What software do you use and how many pics

#2

Post by JayTee »


There are a couple really good titles out there besides PS.

Read this post to get a better idea.
viewtopic.php?style=42&f=8&t=523

It boils down to the fact that PS is for every kind of image manipulation and the Astro-specific titles are much more geared to the functions that help get the most out of your astro image.
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Re: HDR Processing - What software do you use and how many pics

#3

Post by Juno16 »


JayTee wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:33 pm There are a couple really good titles out there besides PS.

Read this post to get a better idea.
viewtopic.php?style=42&f=8&t=523

It boils down to the fact that PS is for every kind of image manipulation and the Astro-specific titles are much more geared to the functions that help get the most out of your astro image.
Outstanding work on that article JT. You spent quite a bit of time compiling that. Excellent work!
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Re: HDR Processing - What software do you use and how many pics

#4

Post by chris_g »


Juno16 wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:26 am
JayTee wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:33 pm There are a couple really good titles out there besides PS.

Read this post to get a better idea.
viewtopic.php?style=42&f=8&t=523

It boils down to the fact that PS is for every kind of image manipulation and the Astro-specific titles are much more geared to the functions that help get the most out of your astro image.
Outstanding work on that article JT. You spent quite a bit of tim compiling that. Excellent work!
Thanks for the reminder about that one. I noticed though that it didn't talk about technique but that wasn't the focus of the article. I'm hoping for some opinions on other software titles folks have used for HDR and their experience with it and what kind of imaging runs they set up length and number of exposures.
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Re: HDR Processing - What software do you use and how many pics

#5

Post by Jockinireland »


Hi @chris_g

I use Pixinsight for my HDR so not much use to you.

But on our question about what kind of imaging runs, unfortunately there's no "one size fits all". It is very much dependant on both the target and your equipment and you need to make a judgement call based on those two things.

For example, two of the most often "HDR'd" targets are M31 and M42 but they are need quite different treatment.

M31 has a fairly bright core but there is not much structure or detail rigght in the core of the core - so you dont need togo to very short exposures.

M42 on the other hand has a very bright core and the trapezeum is right there in the centre ad thats what people who know are going to look for.

So on my M31 I have limited it to a set of 120s and a set of 240s (Canon 700d)
viewtopic.php?f=66&t=14122&p=118755&hilit=M31#p118755

On my M42 I did 60s, 120s and 180s (ASI 2600mc)
viewtopic.php?f=66&t=16639&p=139914&hilit=orion#p139914

So it really comes down to knowing thae target, knowing your kit and knowing what result you want to get.

Thats probably not what you were looking for. But if you share what your project is to be we may be able to provide some suggestions for a starting point.
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Re: HDR Processing - What software do you use and how many pics

#6

Post by chris_g »


Jockinireland wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:56 pm Hi @chris_g

I use Pixinsight for my HDR so not much use to you.

But on our question about what kind of imaging runs, unfortunately there's no "one size fits all". It is very much dependant on both the target and your equipment and you need to make a judgement call based on those two things.

For example, two of the most often "HDR'd" targets are M31 and M42 but they are need quite different treatment.

M31 has a fairly bright core but there is not much structure or detail rigght in the core of the core - so you dont need togo to very short exposures.

M42 on the other hand has a very bright core and the trapezeum is right there in the centre ad thats what people who know are going to look for.

So on my M31 I have limited it to a set of 120s and a set of 240s (Canon 700d)
viewtopic.php?f=66&t=14122&p=118755&hilit=M31#p118755

On my M42 I did 60s, 120s and 180s (ASI 2600mc)
viewtopic.php?f=66&t=16639&p=139914&hilit=orion#p139914

So it really comes down to knowing thae target, knowing your kit and knowing what result you want to get.

Thats probably not what you were looking for. But if you share what your project is to be we may be able to provide some suggestions for a starting point.
Actually it was precisely what I was looking for, examples of what was shot and how. Hard to find posts unless they specifically say HDR in them. I'm planning on shooting M 45 and hope to try to capture as much of the dust surrounding it as I can as well as the reflection nebula surrounding the stars themselves. Below is what I hope to try and accomplish, it's from CosmicsPursuits.com, not sure if my Canon will do it but I'm going to try... :) M 31 is my other target. You've confirmed what I thought, not a lot of integration in different exposures are needed for it, the core is the brightest point. I just need to replace my initial set of images for it, and get my framing right. :lol:

I'm not looking at software so much any more, you use what you have access to and I've since found links for HDR processing in PS, I've also learned more on how to handle curves in PS from a blog post on AstroBarYard, I pulled out what little there was of the reflection nebula using it without having to stretch in DSS. However, I do suspect I'll start using something astro specific eventually.

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Re: HDR Processing - What software do you use and how many pics

#7

Post by Jockinireland »


M45 does not need a huge range of exposures.

This was my effort with the same scope as yours and my 700D. 180s at ISO 800. I tried 120s also and HDR;d it but was not really worth the effort.
viewtopic.php?f=66&t=14878&p=125338#p125338
Id suggest you do a few at 60, a fair amount at 180 then some more at 240s. But youd' probably get away with 60 and 180.

One point though, with your kit your FOV is going to be tighter than the image you have above so you'll be missing a lot of that outer dust.

This is a screenshot of the FOV (the red box) as calculated for my 700d and the reduced 80ED in stellarium - you can see I cropped my image a bit but not that much.
Capture.JPG
Good luck.
Scope: Skywatcher Evostar 80ED (SW 0.85 FR/FF) on a SW NEQ6Pro
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Re: HDR Processing - What software do you use and how many pics

#8

Post by chris_g »


I looked at my installation of Stellarium, I'll start using it more to frame in the planning stages as well as locating objects and slewing to them. Probably not going to catch much of the dust, the FOV is just out to the edge of the blue reflection nebula but I should catch some. Thanks for the recommendation on the exposure settings. Now waiting for the next dark night or nights with some clear skies, hopefully the end of the month.

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M 45 Stellarium.jpg
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Re: HDR Processing - What software do you use and how many pics

#9

Post by SkyHiker »


You can replace PS with Gimp. Admitted, PS has more plugins but Gimp is doing pretty well. Especially after they added 32 bit processing a few years ago.

A simple way of doing HDR is to take different exposures and stack them all at once. The main benefit is that the shorter exposures will fix blown out areas. A prime target for this is M42.

I doubt if you have to use more complex forms of HDR. Instead, given a single stack of various exposures, simply tweak the color curves to achieve the same as stacking one group per exposure.

BTW you don't need flats for all exposures, one exposure length will do. Not so for darks. Though it should mostly be proportional to exposure time so pixel math in Gimp can help.
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Re: HDR Processing - What software do you use and how many pics

#10

Post by chris_g »


Thanks Henk, I always thought GIMP was just Linux based. I just went out to it's web site and see there's a Windows version. I will check it out, free is always good.
SkyHiker wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:57 am You can replace PS with Gimp. Admitted, PS has more plugins but Gimp is doing pretty well. Especially after they added 32 bit processing a few years ago.

A simple way of doing HDR is to take different exposures and stack them all at once. The main benefit is that the shorter exposures will fix blown out areas. A prime target for this is M42.

I doubt if you have to use more complex forms of HDR. Instead, given a single stack of various exposures, simply tweak the color curves to achieve the same as stacking one group per exposure.

BTW you don't need flats for all exposures, one exposure length will do. Not so for darks. Though it should mostly be proportional to exposure time so pixel math in Gimp can help.
Image Cam: Canon 6D (Ha mod), 600D (Stock), SVBony SV405CC
Image OTA: EvoStar ED80, WO Z73, C8-A XLT
Mount: EQ6-R Pro Pier, AZ-EQ5 Pro Pier
Guide OTA: Orion 60mm, WO 32mm, ZWO OAG, SV501P
Guide Cam: ZWO 120mm, 290mm mini
EAA OTA: Orion ST80
EAA Cam: SVBony SV705C
EP: Baader Hyperion Modular Set
Filters: L-Pro Canon EOS C, L-eNhance, L-Pro, Optolong Ha 7mm, Optolong Oiii 6.5mm, Optolong Sii 6.5mm, ES H-Beta
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Re: HDR Processing - What software do you use and how many pics

#11

Post by chris_g »


@Jockinireland one more question if you don't mind. Since the FOV that I want to capture is bigger than my rig will accomodate, I thought a mosaic would be a option. I scanned some posts and saw that you've done some. How do you calculate the coordinates for each panel? I saw there was The Sky and SGP that had mosaic planners but I was hoping for free.

I am ambitious if anything!

Thanks again Jim for your help...
Image Cam: Canon 6D (Ha mod), 600D (Stock), SVBony SV405CC
Image OTA: EvoStar ED80, WO Z73, C8-A XLT
Mount: EQ6-R Pro Pier, AZ-EQ5 Pro Pier
Guide OTA: Orion 60mm, WO 32mm, ZWO OAG, SV501P
Guide Cam: ZWO 120mm, 290mm mini
EAA OTA: Orion ST80
EAA Cam: SVBony SV705C
EP: Baader Hyperion Modular Set
Filters: L-Pro Canon EOS C, L-eNhance, L-Pro, Optolong Ha 7mm, Optolong Oiii 6.5mm, Optolong Sii 6.5mm, ES H-Beta
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Re: HDR Processing - What software do you use and how many pics

#12

Post by Jockinireland »


chris_g wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 4:31 am @Jockinireland one more question if you don't mind. Since the FOV that I want to capture is bigger than my rig will accomodate, I thought a mosaic would be a option. I scanned some posts and saw that you've done some. How do you calculate the coordinates for each panel? I saw there was The Sky and SGP that had mosaic planners but I was hoping for free.

I am ambitious if anything!

Thanks again Jim for your help...
You use APT and you have Stellariun right? If you have them set up to talk to each other then it's fairly easy. Using the "occular" you have already defined for your set up, position your fov then capture the coordinates for that in APT in Objects - To do -Add new - Catch. Reposition the fov in Stellarium with at least 10% overlap, - I tend to make it more than that - then put that in to Todo. Once the co-ords are in there it's easy to move the scope to position. You can even set up a script to automatically run the initial capture, move using goto++ then start the second set.

The only fiddly bit is the rotation angle. If you have changed the frame angle on Stellarium then you need to manually change the angle of your camera in you scope to be the same. I do that using platesolving, show in stellarium, adjust angle, repeat. It can be a bit painfull if your angle is really critical but it works.

You are certainly moving ahead pretty quickly, the faint dust images are tricky to capture and very difficult to process and mosaics add another layer of complexity. But nothing wrong with ambition so long as you are ready to deal with it if it does not go as well as hoped for.

For the dust processing take look at this, complicated but effective.

http://www.astronomersdoitinthedark.com ... torial.php

He uses photoshop and "ImagesPlus" which is available free here

http://www.mlunsold.com/ILOrdering.html

On building mosaics, I'm not sure how easy that is in photoshop. When you are ready to get some astro specific processing software look at Astro Pixel processor. I find it does a MUCH better job at stacking than DSS, it has first rate gradient removal, a fabulous mosaic capability, brilliant colour calibration and excellent preset stretches. It will get you to about 90% of the way then you can move to photoshop to finish.

Hope that helps

David
Scope: Skywatcher Evostar 80ED (SW 0.85 FR/FF) on a SW NEQ6Pro
Guiding; SW Evoguide 50ED, ASI 120mm mini
Meade 8" LX200 GPS on wedge (Guided with a cheapo 50mm guidescope and a ZWO ASI 120mm mini)
Sharpstar 61EDPH II (with dedicated 0.8 reducer) with wiliam Optics 32mm uniguide
Camera: ASI2600MC pro. QHY 163M with ZWO 7nm NB filters, Canon EOS700D astro mod
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Re: HDR Processing - What software do you use and how many pics

#13

Post by chris_g »


Jockinireland wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 8:35 am
chris_g wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 4:31 am @Jockinireland one more question if you don't mind. Since the FOV that I want to capture is bigger than my rig will accomodate, I thought a mosaic would be a option. I scanned some posts and saw that you've done some. How do you calculate the coordinates for each panel? I saw there was The Sky and SGP that had mosaic planners but I was hoping for free.

I am ambitious if anything!

Thanks again Jim for your help...
You use APT and you have Stellariun right? If you have them set up to talk to each other then it's fairly easy. Using the "occular" you have already defined for your set up, position your fov then capture the coordinates for that in APT in Objects - To do -Add new - Catch. Reposition the fov in Stellarium with at least 10% overlap, - I tend to make it more than that - then put that in to Todo. Once the co-ords are in there it's easy to move the scope to position. You can even set up a script to automatically run the initial capture, move using goto++ then start the second set.

The only fiddly bit is the rotation angle. If you have changed the frame angle on Stellarium then you need to manually change the angle of your camera in you scope to be the same. I do that using platesolving, show in stellarium, adjust angle, repeat. It can be a bit painfull if your angle is really critical but it works.

You are certainly moving ahead pretty quickly, the faint dust images are tricky to capture and very difficult to process and mosaics add another layer of complexity. But nothing wrong with ambition so long as you are ready to deal with it if it does not go as well as hoped for.

For the dust processing take look at this, complicated but effective.

http://www.astronomersdoitinthedark.com ... torial.php

He uses photoshop and "ImagesPlus" which is available free here

http://www.mlunsold.com/ILOrdering.html

On building mosaics, I'm not sure how easy that is in photoshop. When you are ready to get some astro specific processing software look at Astro Pixel processor. I find it does a MUCH better job at stacking than DSS, it has first rate gradient removal, a fabulous mosaic capability, brilliant colour calibration and excellent preset stretches. It will get you to about 90% of the way then you can move to photoshop to finish.

Hope that helps

David
First, sorry got your name wrong David, get confused sometimes who's name belongs to who. And one question always leads to more... :) Question about angles. if the Canon is lined up with the finder scope mount on the ED80 is that 0 degrees? And I would then set the angle to 0 in Stellarium to match it? I've also noted that Stellarium isn't that precise when trying to line up the panels since you have to select an object. I'm assuming the panels don't need to a perfect alignment other than the correct angle?

The framing I want to achieve would be 75 degrees based on the view in Stellarium.
Seven Sisters Cropped.jpg
I suspect my first attempt to process will not be a good one but I want to make sure I have the data.

I see Astro Pixel Processor has an owner's license, and the price does seem to be reasonable. I will definitely check it out, thanks.

Chris
Image Cam: Canon 6D (Ha mod), 600D (Stock), SVBony SV405CC
Image OTA: EvoStar ED80, WO Z73, C8-A XLT
Mount: EQ6-R Pro Pier, AZ-EQ5 Pro Pier
Guide OTA: Orion 60mm, WO 32mm, ZWO OAG, SV501P
Guide Cam: ZWO 120mm, 290mm mini
EAA OTA: Orion ST80
EAA Cam: SVBony SV705C
EP: Baader Hyperion Modular Set
Filters: L-Pro Canon EOS C, L-eNhance, L-Pro, Optolong Ha 7mm, Optolong Oiii 6.5mm, Optolong Sii 6.5mm, ES H-Beta
Session Control: Mini PC/Win11 Pro, APT 4.1, PHD2 2.6.10
Processing: PixInsight, DSS 4.2.6, Adobe PS CC, Astronomy Tools Action Set, Star Spikes Pro
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chris_g United States of America
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Re: HDR Processing - What software do you use and how many pics

#14

Post by chris_g »


@Jockinireland, I've been fiddling in Stellarium all afternoon referring to the images I've already taken of M 45. The Canon aligned with the dovetail finder is 90 degrees, so to achieve 75 degrees I would need to move 15 degrees counter clockwise. So I've answered my own question about rotation angles. I also discovered that I can drag the FOV instead of having to select an object so precision is as fine as I can manage with dragging the sensor FOV.

Just the one question remains about how precise of an alignment for the panels is needed for a successful stitch?
Image Cam: Canon 6D (Ha mod), 600D (Stock), SVBony SV405CC
Image OTA: EvoStar ED80, WO Z73, C8-A XLT
Mount: EQ6-R Pro Pier, AZ-EQ5 Pro Pier
Guide OTA: Orion 60mm, WO 32mm, ZWO OAG, SV501P
Guide Cam: ZWO 120mm, 290mm mini
EAA OTA: Orion ST80
EAA Cam: SVBony SV705C
EP: Baader Hyperion Modular Set
Filters: L-Pro Canon EOS C, L-eNhance, L-Pro, Optolong Ha 7mm, Optolong Oiii 6.5mm, Optolong Sii 6.5mm, ES H-Beta
Session Control: Mini PC/Win11 Pro, APT 4.1, PHD2 2.6.10
Processing: PixInsight, DSS 4.2.6, Adobe PS CC, Astronomy Tools Action Set, Star Spikes Pro
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Jockinireland Ireland
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Re: HDR Processing - What software do you use and how many pics

#15

Post by Jockinireland »


If the canon is lined up so the hotshoe is in line with the two screw holes in the top of the main scope rings then you are at zero degrees on the camera and thats the same zero degrees in stellariun. You need to use either the rings or something on the mount as index point for lining up because the scope itself (or the finder dovetail shoe on the scope) can be rotated relative to the sky - whereas the mount, rings etc cannot. (Sorry just read your second post and see you have worked that out but do use the mount or rings as index point. I was just about to tell you to drag the FOV too !!)

Then to get the 75 degrees you rotate the camera, eyeball it (or ink some markers on your tube. Then image, platesolve, show in stellarium and check and repeat. It can be fiddly but if you are within 5 degrees you are probably good.

Alignment (even the angle) does not need to be precise to stich in either APP or PI - I think that it may make stitching in PS easier but I've never really tried. But the better your alignment the less you'll need to crop out of your final mosaic - and angles here can make all the difference.. When I'm setting my panels in Stellarium what I do is pick a star on one of the short edges then drag the fov along that star until I have the overlap I want (I like to try for 25% but its target dependent). Then its a matter of not changing the camera angle between imaging sessions from your different panels. Because getting exactly the same angle can be difficult if you have moved the camera.

Have you got platesolving working in APT? Because thats going to make things much easier. If you want some raw images to test it with let me know and I'll get you some with my 700D and my Evostar 80ED
Scope: Skywatcher Evostar 80ED (SW 0.85 FR/FF) on a SW NEQ6Pro
Guiding; SW Evoguide 50ED, ASI 120mm mini
Meade 8" LX200 GPS on wedge (Guided with a cheapo 50mm guidescope and a ZWO ASI 120mm mini)
Sharpstar 61EDPH II (with dedicated 0.8 reducer) with wiliam Optics 32mm uniguide
Camera: ASI2600MC pro. QHY 163M with ZWO 7nm NB filters, Canon EOS700D astro mod
Secondary mount: Skywatcher StarAdventurer

My Astrobin https://www.astrobin.com/users/mackiedlm/
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chris_g United States of America
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Re: HDR Processing - What software do you use and how many pics

#16

Post by chris_g »


I understand now about using the tube rings as reference instead of the dovetail, the dovetail would move when I break down and store the scope for storage or transport even though I lined the finder dovetail with the 1.25 20 mount point on the tube ring it still could be off. It does explain why my image of M 31 was slightly off. I've since gotten a manual rotator and I'll use the tube ring screws as reference. I've got platesolving working with ASTAP, so much quicker that ASPS was. I do a one star alignment using the SynScan App, polar align with NINA TPPA then go back to APT and slew, platesolve, sync, slew, guide. That's how I got my first set on M 45. It will be easy to get the panels set up in Stellarium now that I what the 0 angle reference point is. Once I realized I could drag the FOV, I zoomed in so I could see the fainter stars and dragged across the appropriate line. I was originally thinking I would need some outrageous number of panels to do this but then I switch the FOV to a portrait instead of landscape in Stellarium and realized I could do it with just two and the overlap could be 30% or more. Instead of 75 degree, it's will be two panels at 345 degrees with M 45 centered in the middle of the two. That should give me the surrounding dust clouds plus some if I need to do any cropping. I never thought to use Stellarium as a framing tool. I was wondering how I was going to do that since I prefer APT over NINA

I truly appreciate your help on this. I think I'm armed with the knowledge I need to accomplish the imaging run. Now only if the sky will cooperate, the next time of any serious DSD time is around the end of the month, no extended forecast yet to tease me :lol:

Clear Skies!
Image Cam: Canon 6D (Ha mod), 600D (Stock), SVBony SV405CC
Image OTA: EvoStar ED80, WO Z73, C8-A XLT
Mount: EQ6-R Pro Pier, AZ-EQ5 Pro Pier
Guide OTA: Orion 60mm, WO 32mm, ZWO OAG, SV501P
Guide Cam: ZWO 120mm, 290mm mini
EAA OTA: Orion ST80
EAA Cam: SVBony SV705C
EP: Baader Hyperion Modular Set
Filters: L-Pro Canon EOS C, L-eNhance, L-Pro, Optolong Ha 7mm, Optolong Oiii 6.5mm, Optolong Sii 6.5mm, ES H-Beta
Session Control: Mini PC/Win11 Pro, APT 4.1, PHD2 2.6.10
Processing: PixInsight, DSS 4.2.6, Adobe PS CC, Astronomy Tools Action Set, Star Spikes Pro
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