"Busy" looking images?
- STEVE333
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Re: "Busy" looking images?
I used a different technique to reintroduce the stars and like the results better. The stars look more "natural", especially over the nebula. So many options on how to do processing!
East_Veil_Stars_2 by STEPHEN KING, on Flickr
Cheers,
Steve
East_Veil_Stars_2 by STEPHEN KING, on Flickr
Cheers,
Steve
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- Larry 1969
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Re: "Busy" looking images?
Interesting... I too just left aStar Dad wrote: ↑Tue Jul 21, 2020 1:57 pm I also used for 5 for a long time. 1 does not work for me - at all. I tried 2 and lo and behold the image was vastly improved. Well, as I type this I also just realized that I made the switch from 5 to 2 when I stopped using the Canon 70D and shifted to the ASI294MC cooled. I recall trying various settings and 2 seems to be perfect for the 294. Unfortunately, StarTools doesn't explain a lot of the underlying math involved, and the limited help is mostly useless. I started out doing what many tutorials say to do, but when I get an image that is not satisfactory - or what I think it should look like then I begin to tinker with settings. But it's mostly guess work. I wish there were better explanations for each of the "steps" i.e. contrast, demosaic, life, etc do and what changing the values really does. For instance what does the difference in structure size really mean and when should I apply one of the three choices?
I find
I don't think Pixinsight would be any "easier" to use either. Not only do you have to pay up for the software, you have to pay to attend classes on how to use it... Well, you don't HAVE to, but the fact that people are willing to pay to learn it tells me it's probably not any "easier" than
Larry
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Re: "Busy" looking images?
Larry 1969 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:44 pm
I find StarTools pretty complicated, but I have literally ZERO background in any image processing. I was new to astronomy and photography when I took up astro-photography... It's been a very steep, yet enjoyable learning curve for sure! Mostly because of the generous help from the fine folks on this forum and some others!
I don't think Pixinsight would be any "easier" to use either. Not only do you have to pay up for the software, you have to pay to attend classes on how to use it... Well, you don't HAVE to, but the fact that people are willing to pay to learn it tells me it's probably not any "easier" than StarTools...
Larry
Hi Larry - I feel your "pain" learning how to process
I started off with
Whichever way you go I wish you the best of success. You sound willing to take on the processing challenge which is at least half of the battle.
Look forward to your next image(s).
Steve
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Re: "Busy" looking images?
Thanks again Ivo!startoolsastro wrote: ↑Mon Jul 20, 2020 3:45 am Hi Larry,
Depending on whether you are a purist, relying on "made up" data may be objectionable. As a developer I would leave that decision to the user (there is a guide for using StarNet++ with StarTools here if you want for example), however when publishing an image, I, for one, would certainly want to know about any treatment that completely made up data. Sadly (fortunately?) I can usually pick such a treatment quite easily, but others may not.
This is what I think I like about
I believe my images are scientifically correct whether I would prefer them to appear a certain way or not.
Some astro-photographers are after the "best possible image" while I'm after the "best I can do with the real data I alone captured"...
That's what makes it "real" for me! Anyone can look up Hubble images but these photons actually hit my camera's sensor!
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Re: "Busy" looking images?
Thanks Steve! Certainly not knocking Pixinsight. It appears to be the Cadillac of software as there are a TON of users.
I'm starting to get used to
Practice, practice and practice.....
Larry
For visual:
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Re: "Busy" looking images?
I do like what you were able to do with my image....STEVE333 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 21, 2020 6:48 pm I used a different technique to reintroduce the stars and like the results better. The stars look more "natural", especially over the nebula. So many options on how to do processing!
East_Veil_Stars_2 by STEPHEN KING, on Flickr
Cheers,
Steve
Thanks again Steve!
Larry
For visual:
10" Skywatcher collapsible goto dob, various EP's and a Celestron StarSense auto align.
For imaging:
Orion 8" astrograph 800mm @ F3.9
Eq6-R Pro controlled by APT via EQmod with an OTA mounted mini PC
Tele Vue Paracorr Type 2 coma corrector
Altair Hypercam 26C
10" Skywatcher collapsible goto dob, various EP's and a Celestron StarSense auto align.
For imaging:
Orion 8" astrograph 800mm @ F3.9
Eq6-R Pro controlled by APT via EQmod with an OTA mounted mini PC
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Re: "Busy" looking images?
That should work indeed; whatever is a good representation of the dynamic range problem that AutoDev needs to solve for. "Ignore Fine Detail <" should help if your image has a lot of noise grain.Larry 1969 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 20, 2020 10:51 am I usually then do another auto dev with a slice of ROI and keep but I found that to look over developed so I did do a manual develop.
If I were to do another auto dev, what would you suggest for my ROI? I just used a slice of the nebulosity...
If I told you it specifies the kernel size of a Gaussian filter, would that help? I personally, however, don't think it is very useful to explain the basics of convolution filters every time one is used, as that would get old very quickly (and lose a lot of people)!
limited help is mostly useless.
I think I know where you're coming from, however there are, for starters, no less than two manuals (if you're English speaking that is), offline in-I started out doing what many tutorials say to do, but when I get an image that is not satisfactory - or what I think it should look like then I begin to tinker with settings. But it's mostly guess work. I wish there were better explanations for each of the "steps" i.e. contrast, demosaic, life, etc do and what changing the values really does. For instance what does the difference in structure size really mean and when should I apply one of the three choices?
E.g. if something is titled "Wavelet Sharpening", it is assumed that the user is across how a wavelet transform works and how the parameters roughly relate to the variables that go into it - this aspect will not be in the
Of course, a more fundamental understanding of what it is going on, and how things fit in a valid signal processing workflow, is greatly beneficial.
Hope this make sense/help!
Ivo Jager - creator of StarTools
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Re: "Busy" looking images?
"If I told you it specifies the kernel size of a Gaussian filter, would that help? I personally, however, don't think it is very useful to explain the basics of convolution filters every time one is used, as that would get old very quickly (and lose a lot of people)! "
Well, I do happen to understand what a Gaussian filter is - at least theoretically. But what is the "structure size" that we are supposed to select? Ie what is small vs what is large? Are we talking a small nebula vs a very large one? Does it relate to the density of the object - ie a "thin", faint nebula vs a brilliant, condensed one - ie Veil VS Ring? For me that is what is lacking. I don't understand the meaning of the word structure as used in this context.
I will have to re-read the docs. I read them some time ago and maybe just glossed over the details while trying to get a feel for the software.
BTW I am in no way denigratingStarTools . I LOVE StarTools . It has really improved my imaging by an immeasurable amount. I recommend it to all my AP friends.
Well, I do happen to understand what a Gaussian filter is - at least theoretically. But what is the "structure size" that we are supposed to select? Ie what is small vs what is large? Are we talking a small nebula vs a very large one? Does it relate to the density of the object - ie a "thin", faint nebula vs a brilliant, condensed one - ie Veil VS Ring? For me that is what is lacking. I don't understand the meaning of the word structure as used in this context.
I will have to re-read the docs. I read them some time ago and maybe just glossed over the details while trying to get a feel for the software.
BTW I am in no way denigrating
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Re: "Busy" looking images?
Same here! I tell everyone about this software!
I have a Facebook page dedicated to my
Larry
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Re: "Busy" looking images?
Thank you [mention]Star Dad[/mention] and [mention]Larry 1969[/mention]. Nothing is perfect, so if there are areas ST can/should improve in, please do let me know. That goes for the documentation as well (though with my former comments/post in mind).
Star Dad, I think you may really appreciate Guy's User Notes on the forum (for example these notes on the Sharp module).
Clear skies!
Star Dad, I think you may really appreciate Guy's User Notes on the forum (for example these notes on the Sharp module).
Clear skies!
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Re: "Busy" looking images?
Thanks for the suggestion Ivo, however, if I clear the mask in the "Life" module I get a message stating "Life cannot function without a mask"...startoolsastro wrote: ↑Mon Jul 20, 2020 3:45 am Hi Larry,
If you're using StarTools, the Life module gives you a few ways of pushing back busy star fields and re-focus the viewer's attention on the larger scale structures. Try the Isolate preset (w/o mask), or try the a tweaked version with Parameter [Detail Preservation] set to [Min Distance to 1/2 Unity]. You can even run two iterations (a combination of the two ) if you want;
Note that the above techniques do not use star masks at all.
Is there some sort of workaround for that?
Larry
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Re: "Busy" looking images?
Larry - I believe the workaround is to use a "Fill" mask for the Life module. It is a mask with every pixel selected.Larry 1969 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 25, 2020 2:00 pmThanks for the suggestion Ivo, however, if I clear the mask in the "Life" module I get a message stating "Life cannot function without a mask"...startoolsastro wrote: ↑Mon Jul 20, 2020 3:45 am Hi Larry,
If you're using StarTools, the Life module gives you a few ways of pushing back busy star fields and re-focus the viewer's attention on the larger scale structures. Try the Isolate preset (w/o mask), or try the a tweaked version with Parameter [Detail Preservation] set to [Min Distance to 1/2 Unity]. You can even run two iterations (a combination of the two ) if you want;
Note that the above techniques do not use star masks at all.
Is there some sort of workaround for that?
Larry
Bob
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Re: "Busy" looking images?
The original post has images where the stars have horizontal and vertical artifacts and most reprocessed images do too except Ivo's. Does StarTools somehow fix all non round stars, or did Ivo use Larry's original image as a starting point?
Working inGimp , using star masks inevitably introduces artifacts while Starnet++ does a much better job. It gives me a lot of freedom in how I mix the stars back in and generally gives me much better results than when I don't use it. My imaging time is usually less than 2.5 hours so my images are rather noisy and sensitive to improvements. I spend a lot of time editing and enjoy doing the pixel math.
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Re: "Busy" looking images?
"To be good is not enough when you dream of being great"
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Re: "Busy" looking images?
Thanks Bob!bobharmony wrote: ↑Sat Jul 25, 2020 2:13 pm
Larry - I believe the workaround is to use a "Fill" mask for the Life module. It is a mask with every pixel selected.
Bob
That's what I've been doing up until now but Ivo stated "Try the Isolate module (w/o mask)" and that made me try to remove the mask all together which resulted in the message...
I set up a new imaging PC last night and tried it out on The Cocoon Nebula. In between the clouds I was able to get almost 3.5 hours on target. I could certainly use more TOT but, during processing, I did remove the mask and made a star mask then ran Isolate in the Life module and my result was far less "busy" looking.
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Re: "Busy" looking images?
Thanks Lowjiber! I do like that but, I'm beginning to accept the fact that those stars are really there and they just make for a busy image...Lowjiber wrote: ↑Tue Jul 21, 2020 2:55 pm Larry, those are stunning images... The Veil in particular.
I took the liberty of throwing your image of The Veil into Photoshop to see what I could do with the stars. I put a feathered mask around The Veil and adjusted the histogram to dampen the brightness of the surrounding area.
(I'm a solar imager and haven't shot a DSO since moving to Las Vegas ten years ago.) LOL
I guess I'm more of a purist than an artist...
Larry
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Re: "Busy" looking images?
I took a crack at it using the 'star reduce' function in star tools.
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Re: "Busy" looking images?
Thanks Gordon!
That is pretty cool except for the ringing or little halos around the stars.
Where exactly is the "star reduce" function?
Larry
For visual:
10" Skywatcher collapsible goto dob, various EP's and a Celestron StarSense auto align.
For imaging:
Orion 8" astrograph 800mm @ F3.9
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Tele Vue Paracorr Type 2 coma corrector
Altair Hypercam 26C
10" Skywatcher collapsible goto dob, various EP's and a Celestron StarSense auto align.
For imaging:
Orion 8" astrograph 800mm @ F3.9
Eq6-R Pro controlled by APT via EQmod with an OTA mounted mini PC
Tele Vue Paracorr Type 2 coma corrector
Altair Hypercam 26C
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Re: "Busy" looking images?
I don't think it has anything to do with purity, the image is made busy by the processing that you do on it to bring out the nebulosity. The blow up is an artifact from the atmosphere and technology so why not use technology to suppress them.Larry 1969 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 25, 2020 6:59 pm I'm beginning to accept the fact that those stars are really there and they just make for a busy image...
I guess I'm more of a purist than an artist...
Your starmask-processed image shows blurring artifacts. You could try blurring it less but how about giving Starnet++ a shot then decide what you like best?
BTW you have very nice material and I'm nit picking a bit.
... Henk. Telescopes: GSO 12" Astrograph, "Comet Hunter" MN152, ES ED127CF, ES ED80, WO Redcat51, Z12, AT6RC, Celestron Skymaster 20x80, Mounts and tripod: Losmandy G11S with OnStep, AVX, Tiltall, Cameras: ASI2600MC, ASI2600MM, ASI120 mini, Fuji X-a1, Canon XSi, T6, ELPH 100HS, DIY: OnStep controller, Pi4b/power rig, Afocal adapter, Foldable Dob base, Az/Alt Dob setting circles, Accessories: ZWO 36 mm filter wheel, TV Paracorr 2, Baader MPCC Mk III, ES FF, SSAG, QHY OAG-M, EAF electronic focuser, Plossls, Barlows, Telrad, Laser collimators (Seben LK1, Z12, Howie Glatter), Cheshire, 2 Orion RACIs 8x50, Software: KStars-Ekos, DSS, PHD2, Nebulosity, Photo Gallery, Gimp, CHDK, Computers:Pi4b, 2x running KStars/Ekos, Toshiba Satellite 17", Website:Henk's astro images
- Larry 1969
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Re: "Busy" looking images?
Thanks Henk!SkyHiker wrote: ↑Sat Jul 25, 2020 9:41 pm
I don't think it has anything to do with purity, the image is made busy by the processing that you do on it to bring out the nebulosity. The blow up is an artifact from the atmosphere and technology so why not use technology to suppress them.
Your starmask-processed image shows blurring artifacts. You could try blurring it less but how about giving Starnet++ a shot then decide what you like best?
BTW you have very nice material and I'm nit picking a bit.
I do appreciate the feedback!
I will look into this "Starnet++" and give it a shot!
Larry
For visual:
10" Skywatcher collapsible goto dob, various EP's and a Celestron StarSense auto align.
For imaging:
Orion 8" astrograph 800mm @ F3.9
Eq6-R Pro controlled by APT via EQmod with an OTA mounted mini PC
Tele Vue Paracorr Type 2 coma corrector
Altair Hypercam 26C
10" Skywatcher collapsible goto dob, various EP's and a Celestron StarSense auto align.
For imaging:
Orion 8" astrograph 800mm @ F3.9
Eq6-R Pro controlled by APT via EQmod with an OTA mounted mini PC
Tele Vue Paracorr Type 2 coma corrector
Altair Hypercam 26C
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